Has anyone noticed that once again the failed economies of Europe are again threatening the world economic stability? What I cannot understand is why Greece cannot be allowed to fail. Time and time again we have seen these basket case economies fall over. Usually it is not a developed country, however when sitting in the sun is your daily pastime, someone has to pay and it should not be the rest of Europe who own that pile of ancient ruins at the end of the Ahean absolutely nothing, and nor should it be the other nations of the world.

In the case of Greece it conned its way into the EU and should be chucked out on its ear so that the people within the nation take the pain and inflict as much as possible of it on their lacklustre politicians and bureaucrats. Let the European banks who made a bad investment take the pain. Every time the name of Greece is mentioned the financial markets chuck a woobbly and reduce the value of stocks, not because they necessarily have any investment in Greece but because of uncertainty. So I say let's have certainty, not money in Greece, extend the loans or write them off forclose and take over the place and sell it up

Now the Spanish people are indignant that the pain of their stupid decision making should fall on them. More tough love needed here. Make yourselves competitive, there is no money to be earned marching in the streets

Europe doesn't have the courage to restructure their finances the greedy b@stards.

Tal don't start talking about greedy b@stards, please remember who caused the GFC and started the global meltdown also I note a similar reluctance in your own country to swallowing the medicine needed to address financial issues, So perhaps the yankee could show us their courage and reform their financial position, after all, 15 trillion, a mere baggatelle for such a strong economy.

What I say is reform is needed everywhere and start with those greedy b#stards the CEO who take home millions for doing nothing there should be ceilings put on corporate largesse and compensation schemes and one of the best ways to do it is a super tax on all earnings above a million dollars and an effective capital gains tax

You think reforming corporate salaries will be anything more than spit in the ocean ? You know as well as I do that the restructure is needed in the budgets of nations ;including serious reforms of entitlements . Greece ;and France revolted against politicians who had the courage to suggest what really was needed was haircuts. I expect nothing less from the spoiled masses here.

LOL, Tom, but that let the rich get richer by rigging the game and sucking wealth out of the economy will not go over well with REAL working people who have never tasted silver before in their lives. Haven't you seen the BS about not putting the debts on the backs of our children?

Trust me guy, people like Romney's children will never be burdened by any debt. But YOURS will, and are NOW. I go with Clete, raise the taxes, cut back bonuses, and lets stop letting the business cycle dictate whether we can buy stuff.

When they make Germany toe the line, Greece can recover, because AUSTERITY among the many doesn't work. That's the lesson of the European Union, whether you like it or not. But conservatives who accuse the current president of making us like Europe, are the ones pushing the policies of Europe, to hide the fact that a few silver spoons come before the many real people.

Good luck Mitt, you will need it, you selective memory bully.

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When they make Germany toe the line, Greece can recover,

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Germany has been the only resposible nation in the EU . And what happened ? Merkel's party got hammered this weekend.

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Good luck Mitt, you will need it, you selective memory bully.

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lol ,Did you mention that because I talked of taking a HAIRCUT ?
The Compost can't prove their claim. The "victims " relatives never heard the story . Maybe we have some Dan Rather journalism going on here.

So I guess his cronies regretting their actions was made up?

Day After Obama Marriage Equality Move, Story Emerges of Teenage Romney Tackling, Cutting Hair of Boy He Believed to Be Gay | AlterNet

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The Post reports that five former classmates of Romney's recalled the incident independently. The former classmates, who span the political spectrum, called the act "vicious," "senseless," and "idiotic," among other things.

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He may not of told the family, but the bullies all remembered except the ring leader. So who says the POST couldn't back up the story?

Let them... this story is going nowhere. One of the Compost witnesses has said he really did not see the incident.
Gee what else are they going to find out about Romney.. that he was an admitted high school coke and pot head ? That he associated with domestic terrorists ?


I wonder if the Compost will do a 5,000 word essay on this story : snopes.com: Romney Business Partner Daughter Search


Or this one :

The Heroic Romney Rescue That, For Some Reason, The Campaign Doesn't Talk About

Back on track fellows no hijacking the thread, My Question to Tom is why should the little people take the pain, you say the entitlements are too big but you don't live in their economy, you don't know the price of anything, Europe can be a very expensive place and it is the rich, not the poor who have made Greece a basket case avoiding taxes and hiding their wealth. The IMF comes along and says take a haircut or is that a headcut when it should be saying what will it take to grow your economy. You start with putting ceilings in place not cutting pensions. You start with finding a way of attracting industry and revitalising the existing ones,

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it is the rich, not the poor who have made Greece a basket case avoiding taxes and hiding their wealth.

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Same here, and like here, they want the poor to pay for the rich.

Nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville

Further ,the politicians consistently lied about the economic health of the nation to gain entrance into the EU . You can't tell me that they have managed it well when the debt is 120% of GDP. You can squeeze the rich until they have no money left and that will not change the fact that they over commit to reckless government spending.
One in three Greeks works for the government. Government employees enjoy higher wages, more benefits, and earlier retirements than private-sector employees. Civil servants can retire after 35 years of service at 80 percent of their highest salary and enjoy lavish health plans, vacations, and other perks.Some civil servants receive bonuses for using computers, others get a bonus just for arriving at work on time. All civil servants receive 14 yearly checks for twelve months’ work. And it’s almost impossible to fire them — even for the grossest incompetence. The retirement age is 60 .

The PIGS, incurred massive debt as the result of their “cradle to grave” social programs.The Greeks and France have now chosen suicide over solvency. Good luck to them.

Just can't admit that your heroes ROBBED us can you?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville

Further ,the politicians consistently lied about the economic health of the nation to gain entrance into the EU . You can't tell me that they have managed it well when the debt is 120% of GDP. You can squeeze the rich until they have no money left and that will not change the fact that they over commit to reckless government spending.
One in three Greeks works for the government. Government employees enjoy higher wages, more benefits, and earlier retirements than private-sector employees. Civil servants can retire after 35 years of service at 80 percent of their highest salary and enjoy lavish health plans, vacations, and other perks.Some civil servants receive bonuses for using computers, others get a bonus just for arriving at work on time. All civil servants receive 14 yearly checks for twelve months’ work. And it’s almost impossible to fire them — even for the grossest incompetence. The retirement age is 60 .

The PIGS, incurred massive debt as the result of their “cradle to grave” social programs.The Greeks and France have now chosen suicide over solvency. Good luck to them.

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Never seen a rich man squeezed until he has no money left, you would have me believe they bleed blood like the rest of us. You need to understand the statistics a little better, Greece is a small country and so relies on state owned enterprises more, thus it has more government employees. My own nation did not begin a privatisation program until its population reached 20 million. Nothing wrong with a retirement age of 60 just so long as the state doesn't have to pay for it, better than filling the place with loafers and that retirement age may the practical way of attrition rather than extending the payroll another five years. So Greece operates on a four week cycle with a bonus paid for leave. Greece is a hot country the workforce may wearout earlier than in the cold climes you are used to and be incapable of manual labour in old age. It seems it is almost impossible to fire the politicians and bureaucrats who run your nation also, have you noted how long some of these people have walked the corridors of power? It appears you have never heard of people being paid skill bonuses or more money after upgrading their skills. Sometimes Tom I think you just run off at the mouth, but then your political persuasion makes you that way

You should not make comparisons with your standards some of these places faced devistation in WWII others weren't the recipricants of your generous war reparations like Germany was

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Greece is a small country and so relies on state owned enterprises more

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The size of the nation isn't the issue .It is the socialized policies.

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Nothing wrong with a retirement age of 60 just so long as the state doesn't have to pay for it,

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Indeed it does ;although in reality it's more like they pick the pockets of productive workers because the promised pensions were never funded.

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It seems it is almost impossible to fire the politicians and bureaucrats who run your nation also, have you noted how long some of these people have walked the corridors of power?

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I've noted that a number of times and have given the right prescription to that issue... term limits.

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You should not make comparisons with your standards some of these places faced devistation in WWII others weren't the recipricants of your generous war reparations like Germany was

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You're joking right ? Now who's running from the mouth ? The Marshall Plan aid was divided amongst the participant states on a roughly per capita basis so the Greek share was per capita about the same as other nations . In fact ;because of the threat of communist takeover ,Greece and Turkey were the 1st nations addressed by the plan. On March 12, 1947, President Truman addressed Congress and asked for $400 million in economic aid for Greece and Turkey. The real problem is that Greece never took the steps to become a modern economy ;but at the same time did the nanny state game as if it's economy was loaded with cash.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

nonsense. What de Toqueville said of America is the same for Europe.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. "Alexis de Tocqueville

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Hi Tom,

How about the wealthy discovering they can bribe congress to increase their largeness from the public purse.

How about we cut back on this rather than, Oh... say, Meals on Wheels?

Shades of John Saul in his 1995 CBC Massey Lectures. Like de Tocqueville, Saul must be able to see into the future.

The big social programs will take some time to get rid of, but we can always start with the small ones.

As Tal's Meals on Wheels clip (different thread) showed it is not good to look too callous, but given the economic circumstances callousness might be of political advantage.

"We have done wrong. We have had it easy. We have indebted ourselves. Now we must pay. We must don hair shirts. We must impose suffering upon ourselves. Of course the suffering will fall on others, but that is beside the point."

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As Tal's Meals on Wheels clip (different thread) showed it is not good to look too callous,

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Yeah it is the appearance that is the problem..

Me ;I would've cut food aid to the NORKs instead.

MOW is largely a privately funded charity . You can find hundreds of examples where a reduction in the rate of spending increases is called a draconian cut .Sooner or later either the budget is balanced or much more draconian steps are required. Much better to borrow Chinese money that our grandkids will repay I guess .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yeah it is the appearance that is the problem ..

Me ;I would've cut food aid to the NORKs instead.

MOW is largely a privately funded charity . You can find hundreds of examples where a reduction in the rate of spending increases is called a draconian cut .Sooner or later either the budget is balanced or much more draconian steps are required. Much better to borrow Chinese money that our grandkids will repay I guess .

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Tom, there is no need for us to don the hair shirts. We know which end of society that debt is going to fall.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

T

You're joking right ? Now who's running from the mouth ? The Marshall Plan aid was divided amongst the participant states on a roughly per capita basis so the Greek share was per capita about the same as other nations . In fact ;because of the threat of communist takeover ,Greece and Turkey were the 1st nations addressed by the plan. On March 12, 1947, President Truman addressed Congress and asked for $400 million in economic aid for Greece and Turkey. The real problem is that Greece never took the steps to become a modern economy ;but at the same time did the nanny state game as if it's economy was loaded with cash.

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No Tom it is you who is joking, Greece suffered a communist inspired civil war, no opportunity for nation building when you are fighting the US proxy war. Look, not everyone wanted to be an american clone. A wrong decision perhaps but you easily dismiss the real issues, per capita payments don't address the real needs when you have a small population so your largesse didn't offer a real solution. Large numbers of greeks migrated after WWII and it is happening again. The young and skilled leave and you are left with the old, the weak and the unskilled. Your solution is to give such people subsistence level life style and say they didn't develop.

Germany has a higher median age than Greece. I guess their "old, the weak and the unskilled" are more productive than those of Greece.

You have to work with what you got. Greece will never be the economic powerhouse that the Northern European nations are . You talk of climate ;but I think it has more to do with geography . They don't have the river transportation system to become a major industrial nation.
However that is not the issue. The issue is that they pretend to be one that with over flowing coffers can promise the masses everything . That's fine so well as someone else pays for it .(the typical socialist model.. make someone's else pay for the largess... in this case they want the German money but not the conditions that the Germans would put on it. ) .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

However that is not the issue. The issue is that they pretend to be one that with over flowing coffers can promise the masses everything . That's fine so well as someone else pays for it .(the typical socialist model ..make someones else pay for the largess .....in this case they want the German money but not the conditions that the Germans would put on it. ) .

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Hi Tom,

Sorry to keep pushing the de Tocqueville thing, but what do you call it when Congress increases the largeness of the wealthy from the public purse?

Tut

I call it an inside job!

The de Toqueville quote covers that as well. Crony socialism (misnamed crony capitalism) often favors the rich. Your socialist utopias all have their privileged cadres .

Tell me where my position advances that proposition. I have been consistent for a flat tax and elimination of tax breaks for all. Your progressive tax solutions are in fact regressive . Higher tax rates in Greece means capital flight . Gee ;what a surprise!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

the de Toqueville quote covers that as well. Crony socialism (misnamed crony capitalism) often favors the rich. Your socialist utopias all have their privileged cadres .

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I can cover than one easily myself.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Tell me where my position advances that proposition. I have been consistent for a flat tax and elimination of tax breaks for all. Your progressive tax solutions are in fact regressive . Higher tax rates in Greece means capital flight . Gee ;what a suprise !!

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I don't recall saying your tax position wasn't consistent.


Tut

Let's see, the president just had a fundraiser at the 7400 square foot home of George Clooney, with a guest list of extremely wealthy celebrities that paid $40,000 a plate to attend... all to advance the causes of the 99 percent I'm sure.

What's he supposed to do when the 1% candidate has unlimited resources and a few very rich super pacs behind him?

For a fact we know that Romney is NOT running for the 99%! But you already knew that!

The President in 2008 rejected public financing because he could easily exceed the public financing limits of McCain Feingold. He's full of shiite when it comes to this issue. His biggest support base in 2008 was Wall Street .

You mean the guy who raised almost a billion dollars the first time around, who was backed by super billionaire George Soros and friends, attacks Wall Street while holding a hand out and attacks Romney for Bain while raising millions at an event held by the COO of a private equity firm?

Cut the nonsense Tal, the left IS the "1 percent."

Sounds good on paper Steve, but most of the big money, is going for Mitt, to increase their already lavish tax cuts, and deductions that YOU will pay for. Me too! So will our kids. And grand kids. You know the ones who won't be able to better themselves through education, and won't be able to feed themselves because those rich job creators are doing there money making through cheap overseas labor.

You know the ones I mean, who got bailed out and have yet to return the favor. If you stop looking over your shoulder at Ex nipping at your heals you wouldn't make statements like "the left is the 1%!

You would instead insist that those ungrateful b@st@rds use their tax cuts, record profits, and deductions right here in the place that has helped them get rich, beyond rational dreams.

Come on country boy, you know better than letting the fox guard the hen house, so why let the wolf shepherd the sheep, or cattle in the case of the Great Republic of Texas. All you get are some FAT wolves and no cattle.

Why do you righties want us to be like Europe, when America is the best looking place in the world?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Sounds good on paper Steve, but most of the big money, is going for Mitt, to increase their already lavish tax cuts, and deductions that YOU will pay for. Me too! So will our kids. And grand kids. You know the ones who won't be able to better themselves thru education, and won't be able to feed themselves because those rich job creators are doing there money making thru cheap overseas labor.

You know the ones I mean, who got bailed out and have yet to return the favor. If you stop looking over your shoulder at Ex nipping at your heals you wouldn't make statements like "the left is the 1%!

You would instead insist that those ungrateful b@st@rds use their tax cuts, record profits, and deductions right here in the place that has helped them get rich, beyond rational dreams.

Come on country boy, you know better than letting the fox guard the hen house, so why let the wolf shepherd the sheep, or cattle in the case of the Great Republic of Texas. All you get are some FAT wolves and no cattle.

Why do you righties want us to be like Europe, when America is the best looking place in the world?

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Brother, got anything besides clichés to argue with?

Sorry partner, you don't get to dismiss me out of hand. That's called denial. I understand, but I ain't going for it. You can't keep claiming federal government is the cause of all your ills, nor claim that corporations are your salvation without putting out facts.

Fact is that we have been letting corporations subvert the cause of the ordinary citizen for far to long without requiring they return the love as has been given them. The common sense business model we all grew under has changed into a vacuum cleaner, and we the people have left OUR government at there mercy.

Now make your credible argument why during the greatest economic downturn your heroes the private sector have made money hand over fist, and not contributed to the growth of a decimated public sector!

Tell me why the banks that deal with you, have floundered, and the banks that deal with the 1% have grown? Tell me if you even know about leveraging, and what an equity firm is, and does.

Tell me how you hate one president and would back a want to be that has promised more of the same extraction that IS going on now. Tell me how that helps YOU!! Go grab your coffee and lets have at it.

Anybody but Obama is no excuse to turn a blind eye to reality, and you will not dismiss those facts because you don't want to see it. So tell me how George Bush on steroids helps YOU!

I say it doesn't, and by being willing to get screwed, the rest of us will get screwed with you.

And my apologizes to Clete, as this is about Europe, not the United States, but the similarities are stark as letting Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy flounder and fail, is like us letting a state fail.

Yes it a very apt comparison indeed. Kalifornia just announced their budget deficit is double what they anticipated . They have been irresponsibly giving goodies to the public sector as long as any state in the Union and that has resulted into an unsustainable budget.
Now they tried to screw the companies that provide meaningful employment to the private sector until the business environment became intollerable and one by one ,private business left the state to business friendly confines of... TEXAS !

Now is it your argument that you ;a resident of Texas that you should pay for the disastrous policies of Jerry Brown and his ship of fools ?
Germany willingly is bailing out the greeks ;and they are being made to look like villians because they want preconditions to the bailout .

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Tell me if you even know about leveraging, and what an equity firm is, and does

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From clichés to insulting my intelligence. Nice.

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And my apologizes to Clete, as this is about Europe, not the United States, but the similarities are stark as letting Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy flounder and fail, is like us letting a state fail.

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Fact is, no one can sustain the type of cradle to grave entitlements the Greek people have come to expect. No national temper tantrum is going to change that, and you want us to go down the same road. Sorry, I haven't worked most of my life to coddle the "99 percent" that think they're entitled to everything free of charge. They can get off their a$$es and take care of themselves.

I mean Geez, the fact that Wal-Mart makes a gazillion dollars didn't prevent me from taking care of me and my family. In fact, them making money is the kind of thing that keeps people in jobs, unlike Obama picking winners and losers that just turn out to be losers. How many jobs is Solyndra creating?

Speech, Tal, you can't just let them sink otherwise what is the reason they should be part of your United States. Ok bad decision making has existed there because they haven't been fiscally responsible but they are not like Greece, they have had a vivrant economy, its just not working as well as it once did. Social programs take a long while to unwind, structural adjustment takes time, you can't just flick a switch because there are two sides to the equation, and revenue is as important as spending

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How many jobs is Solyndra creating?

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Forget that . Obama touts his takeover of the auto industry as a success. How many lost their jobs there ? The US lost $14 billion and the auto industry lost 400, 000 jobs .That is Obama's definition of successs !

You guys are persistent, if not factual or accurate, and you fail to even acknowledge the great almost depression of our time. You fail to recognize that its your side pulling against the recovery that slows the progress, nor ignore the end game of extracting even more money through republican policies. Mainly, increasing the Bush tax cuts that fueled this robbery in the first place.

And maybe its your intention Tom, to point out the job losses by the auto industry, without acknowledging what would have been no auto industry and millions of job losses, and again you totally miss the Solyndra debate and ignore the lawsuit by other green energy companies against Chinese business practices.

Come on guys, surely you can see the underlying cause and effects of the global transitional economy, that has us all in flux, and fearful. Instead of fear, there must be a pragmatic nuanced very careful approach to restoring and reforming a system that benefits us all, and that REQUIRES a fully informed and knowledgeable electorate to achieve that goal.

I mean what good does it do any country to have most of the population poor, dumb, and consigned to a sweat shop that serves only the elites, or rich? Why do we have to lose a generation or so of our children because of our own fears of a rapidly changing world?

Sorry if you think I insulted you intelligence, not my intentions. But please look a bit deeper than Fox News for all the facts. In today's age, there is no excuse not to know what they don't tell you. So don't insult mine with a lack of facts.

Did you know that stopping the filibuster in the Senate would result in 1.5 million new jobs? Bet you don't, nor do you care.

Tal you may as well preach to the wind as try to change Tom's ideas. He is stuck in a rut, he thinks he is still in the twentieth century when america ruled the world. Capitalism is ending and change will be painfull, there is no panocea, no great recovery. So twenty years ago we learned the hard way that what was needed was consensus and the recession of the nineties was hard on us as hard as this recession is on you. Our industries disappeared overnight. But today we have an economy that is the envy of the developed world and whether we like it or not it was consensus politics that enabled it to happen. Doing what must be done whether it is ideologically correct or not. We just had something done that would be unthinkable to your politicians we increased taxes on the rich, not directly but by hitting their perks. Politically we couldn't get rid of negative gearing in the property market so the government changed the tax rates so the advantage was largely lost, but not a bleat out of the community who didn't realise what was happening, they were too busy counting their extra money to realise that tomorrow there would be a bigger bill.

You guys are going to learn the hard way too, yesterday is gone, it won't be back. So start building those wind generators you will need them, not out in the desert but next door and they make really useful cell towers too

They are desperate to turn America into an oligarchy, and that has global implications. The 1% know full well that they don't care about the deficit, and have no problem running it even higher and shrink the revenues and social contracts, so it can be privatized by them.

They actually believe that Americans have short memories, and are dumb enough to cut their own throats, and hand them the keys to the kingdom. Maybe some of us are, but not enough, I think, and that's what makes this election so important. Not just nationally, but on a state and local level.

We all know what happened last time they had the keys. It wasn't that long ago and the mess is still being cleaned up, even after they tried to hide the mop, and bucket.

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Originally Posted by TUT317

I can cover than one easily myself.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"


Tut

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Tom, you can call it crony socialism, crony capitalism; call it what you like. In the end there is no distinction. It is what it is. That being politicians on both sides being forced to pay the pipers who put them in power.

There is no crony capitalism or crony socialism, just cronyism.


Tut