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The richest one percent will save on average $205,000 in taxes. The poorest 60% (most of us) will see an INCREASE in taxes on average of $2,000.
Cain admits this, but says "it will be good in the long run". Huh?
The Republicans just get goofier and goofier.
Huh, I thought even the democrats where asking for everyone to pay their "fair" share, Or is that only the rich should pay most of the share and the poorer pay nothing.
The plan is interesting because it gets away from the tax havens which allow many to pay very little. It is said that that the 60% you talk of is a misnomer since 50% actually pay nothing and that cannot be good for the country since it is unable to balance its budget. It also gets rid of those inefficient state taxes
It is also a transitional step to the 'Fair Tax'.
I like it in principle ;but agree with those who say it won't and shouldn't pass in Congress.
The logic is simple... in the hands of the Dems... 9-9-9 becomes 12-12-12... 15-15-15 etc. He counters that he'd require a 2/3 majority to raise taxes .Not sure how he'd get Congress to agree to that .
I like a sales tax in lieu of an income tax . I don't like the idea of the Feds collecting both. Also a sales tax would take an important revenue source from the States...
And as we all know... the bucket list 1 and bucket list 2 (now called a 'jobs bill") are attempts by the Feds to transfer money to States with 'out of balance' budgets (the ones more inclined to be mini-nanny states ) to keep public service unions appeased .
9-9-9 is a serious tax reform proposal worthy of serious debate and not flippant comments like he got from Bachmann and Huntsman during the last debate. As with all plans ;what emerges as the final law rarely resembles the initial proposal.
What I'm hearing in the OP is the tired old cliches which get boiled down to this ..... unless the tax system is structured "progressively " i.e. squeeze the rich.. then it is unfair to the poor . Blaaa blaa blaa .
Tom trust the system, you would be amazed what might be collected by a system like this, it probably wouldn't need to escalate for years and you could exchange state taxes for the last 9% under a revenue sharing formula which would give states a certain growth income stream. Just think, Buffet and Gates pay all three which is more than they do now, with a little creative distribution rules on corporates it cannot be hidden
Your system is different in that your states don't have autonomy. I am not comfortable with some bureaucrat in Washington deciding how much revenue my state or local government needs.
I'm not sure what you mean Tom by our states don't have autonomy. Our states exercise all powers not reserved for the federal government. Our states ceded much but not all of their taxing powers in exchange for a designated share of certain federal revenues, state and local government still raise their own revenues but there is clear oversight to prevent rorting particularly at local level. You have a very closed mind as to what might be achieved by a different approach and this 9-9-9 approach is certainly different. I understand because I know what the fear of the GST was here before it was implemented and the arguments are familiarQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I am sure that the GST or as the Europeans call it ;the VAT is a great source of revenue for the government to dip into. I'm not closed minded about it at all. I just say you can't have both. I'd prefer it as a replacement to the Income Tax ;but the sales tax is just but one of the 9's .
Cain is pandering to his base, because the last thing a rich guy needs is more money to buy more politicians so he can suck even more money out of the economy, instead of circulating it, and making it the old fashion way, by earning it, and not making some accountant rich or play the ponies... er... I mean the stock market, which is a huge casino for the rich guys.
I would trade the nanny state for the end of corporate welfare and the job creators did there job, or fire them all and take there money.
9% sales tax on new goods? That's crazy? Even the middle class, What's LEFT OF IT, ain't going for that crap.
He needs a better plan! You guys on the right need better candidates.
Tom the way to get a fair tax system is to get as broad a base as possible, I don't think you and I disagree in that particular, but one of the ways to do that is with a consumption tax. This is not to say there should not be income taxes but they are regressive particularly where the lowest earners are concerned, because their impact on individual spending power is much greater.
A 25% tax on the rich is not felt as severely as it is on a low income earner and this is because price is no respecter of persons, but a consumption tax takes much more from the rich because of their capacity to spend and their inability to avoid. Thus the base is broader. It also takes no account of unemployment since people will spend on commodities irrespective.
A effective taxation system shears the sheep with a minimum of bleating. This is a principle we know well
The way to get a fair tax is the congress sitting down and negotiating, not pandering to the ones slipping them the cash, and telling them what to do!
Nobody gave a rats patoot about taxes until the money was ripped off and with held from the economy. Now we have all these cockamamie schemes about what's fair, what's NOT, who did what, who deserves what. We fight and they dictate. They laugh at us running around while they keep buying OUR politicians from us.
At least the posse has shown up on Wall Street, and they ain't arguing about abortion, welfare, tax plans, gun control, or immigration, elections, or gay rights.
They come to get the bad guys, you know the ones stopping the jobs, the economy, and the American way.
Tax reform has been a conservative cause since I was a young man and it has remained so.Quote:
Nobody gave a rats patoot about taxes until the money was ripped off and with held from the economy.
The problem is that the so called liberals hold progressive redistribution as the Holy Grail .
Now where I have I heard that before? Truth, Justice and the American Way. How is that working out for you? Not so well I hear and these fellows on Wall Street aren't Superman just vigilantees in a long tradition.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Sometimes radical change is necessary and this might be the time to implement some, right at the moment where people are dissatisfied with the established thinking and order
It's a slow ugly process, but it works better than any other system in the world. Don't be fooled by cheap knock offs, or want to be's.
Remodeling don't look pretty while you are doing it, but it will get done, eventually. You are taking notes aren't you?
No tal, not taking notes, been there, done that. We are in a post reconstruction phase, dealt with the sources of unemployment by exporting the industries and finding the products everyone wants.
If you want to know how to do it we will send you the plans
Just curious, as you exported the industries, what did you do with the unemployed people from those industries?
Retrained them, You want the dole, you take what's available or you retrain. Now we have 5% unemployment and most of that is structural, where we had 8% and higher before. Obviously our thinking was wrong, too tied to protecting blue collar employment. We have gone from about 60% unionisation to about 20%. When we turned around unemployment we also turned around our economy and were able to produce surpluses. A big part of what we did was tax reform. You see we are not as dependent as you are on the capitalist theorum. We can allow government to be directly part of the way things are done because we are not as hung up on everything being "free". We did privatise some government enterprises along the way and I have to say that has had very mixed success with most under performing on the service side of the businessQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I expect the coopers and blacksmiths had to find something else to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Oh yes Tom we put them to work in the wine industry, expanding market in Asia, you see, or perhaps you don't, we had no use for horses since we were able to buy cars from Asia and barrels are in great demandQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I've tasted some of the swill . They love trying to sell us wines with Kangaroo labels .
As per Wine Spectator, Australia has the #2 and #7 wines of the year worldwide with many more in the top 100. But I'm sure you know more than Wine Spectator.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The sale of Aussie wines continues to decline here . I know they are making it up with sales to China. Let the Chinese enjoy those fine wines. They can have them.
That's likely because California wines have reached very good levels of quality and are marketed heavily.
Hard luck Tom you are missing out on quality and cheap prices but the chinese market is bigger than yours so who cares, at least we don't have to put up with US wines here, even the froggies are underselling our wines hereQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Might be but we save our special wines for you guys, I expect you have found a product called yellowtail, very inferior. But In these trying times you should support the local productQuote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Steve Moore (a Cain advisor;one of the people who helped Cain design the 9-9-9 plan; and Economic Editor at the Wall Street Journal ) says that even though he favors a national sales tax ;that he will advise Cain to remove it from the plan because it is clear that a national sales tax is not politically viable.
Cain also looked bad in flipping about a theoretical swap of terrorist for a captured US soldier similar to the deal Israel made for the release of Gilad Shalit . The "what would you do if...." question was given to Cain during a morning interview . He indicated under that scenario he would allow for the release of multiple jihadists at GITMO in exchange for a captured US serviceperson.
After the debate (after someone told him how dangerous that admission would be) ;he flipped and said he misspoke during the morning interview.
Over all he had a very bad day.
Yellow tail... yeah that's the one I had with the kangaroo label. Yuck
Yes made by a german immigrant with a big egoQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
It will never compete with Wild Irish Rose!!
Yellowtail is indeed old hat. I love wine. I'm not american BTW. I try wines from all over, I'm not partial to geographic preferences.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Hi NK while I agree with you in many ways there are wines from certain places that are preferred. Wolf Blass did some terrible things to Australian wine in his early days.The Mudgee region in Australia does particularly well with Shiraz and Chardonnay and the Barossa Valley in South Australia is excellent also particularly with Tramminer. You might like to try some Clare Reisling but I'm not a fan as it causes a very dry palate. The Kiwi's have gone mad with Sauvignon Blanc it seems to be forcing many other whites out. Unfortunately the breaking of the drought has meant the quality is down in the last two vintages. We are awash with the stuff down here so anything you can do to relieve the pressureQuote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Hehe, will do. Barossa has been on my list.
Everyone needs to pay the same percentage of their income. Without deductions.
Can't get more fair than that.
The left should love it... the Rich still have to pay more than the poor.
The math says its not fair. 9% of a poor mans wages is not the same as a millionaires 9%, poor people have even less at 9% than they have now and a rich guy essentially gets an even bigger part of the pie than he had before. How is rewarding a so called job creator for not creating jobs a solution for unemployment?
Its not. The numbers are equal, but the impact, and piratical applications is not. You would create 30 million jobs tomorrow if you raised taxes to 70% for the rich, because then they would have to actually create jobs to make money, but of course its okay for a rich guy to be lazy and not do his job, and play on Wall Street, but ordinary people actually have to get up and do real work for a living.
What a double standard, and I would love to see a rich guy, cut his own grass, or change his kids diapers, or even fix lunch for his own kids. But then that's the whole purpose of the slave class, is so the rich guy can be fat, and lazy, and raise kids to tell poor kids to go die in a foreign land, so he can keep making even more money from some body else's land and resources.
No wonder the right is so big on sucking the money from the economy, because they think that corporations should tell us what to do instead of we the people taking this country back through our government.
The revolution will be televised, check your local stations.
Math can quantify 'fairness' ?Quote:
The math says its not fair.
States and local governments collect sales taxes at a fixed rate and I hear no one complaining about the fairness. The rich buy more ergo they pay more in sales taxes .
Like the gimmic the Dems tried to pull yesterday with a meaningless tax increase that would've cost the rich an extra $500 /year ? That's the tax that is going to create all those jobs ? The Dems don't even believe their rhetoric.Quote:
You would create 30 million jobs tomorrow if you raised taxes to 70% for the rich,
Would love for you to go on the exchange floor and tell the workers their that they don't get up early and put in a hard day doing real work.Quote:
but of course its okay for a rich guy to be lazy and not do his job, and play on Wall Street, but ordinary people actually have to get up and do real work for a living.
Need help with the math??Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The poor buy less, so they pay less... the same percentage for everyone is what's fair.
Dreaming up excuses to give certain groups prefferential treatment is exactly the same as political contributions for access.
Someone is getting over on someone else.
If its NOT equal for everyone, then there is no equality, period.
9% of a poor mans pay is exactly the same as 9% of a rich mans pay... they are both 9%.
I don't care what they buy... They buy more and spend more . If they buy lavishly so what ? Ask John Kerry . When he purchased his yacht someone built it . Oh wait... that's right... it was built in New Zealand .
When he docks it his state gets the docking fee... Oh wait... he docks it in Rhode Island because he's a tax dodger .
If you want to exempt certain foods I wouldn't object. A consumption tax is a much better idea than an income tax . Where Cain has it wrong is having both . It was only when progressives couldn't figure out a way to pay for government expansion did the Marxist concept of a "progressive" income tax come into play. After elimination of private property ,the progressive income tax was the 2nd of his 10 planks .
There are no american yacht builders so that settles that strawman rant.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Thanks guys, for presenting a clearer picture. No wonder we have a conflict, you guys can't count, so may I suggest getting a 5th grader to do the math for you?
Fact,
9% 0f 50k < 9% 9f 50x 10 to the 6th power.
but according to YOUR math,
9% 0f 50k = 9% of 50x 10 to the 6th power. Which it does NOT!!
LOGIC,
Break it down to you, does the Walmart depend on rich people, or middle America to survive?
Could Walmart even survive without 20 cents a month laborers from a foreign sweat shop?
Could YOU survive paying Neuiman Marcus prices for your kids back to school clothes?
Can they nation survive if the roads and bridges were condemned, or the bridges fell down, or the fires be put out, or the crops not picked, or no teachers in the class, no grocery stores?
Where would you go to buy food for your family?
A=backyard
B=grocery store
C=wall street
No where on this test, is there a question about left, right, D's or R's, just straight logic to see if you can count, and relate to the numbers.
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