Hello:

Have you heard right wingers complain about the 50% of Americans who pay NO federal taxes? Of course, you have. What do you think the wingers are trying to say?? Seems to me, they're trying to say that the POOR should pay more taxes... Doesn't it seem like it to you??

Then, when Democrats suggest raising taxes on the super duper wealthy, they're accused of class warfare. Hmmm?? That ain't right. It ain't right at all.

Before we get into it, I want to define "shared sacrifice". It's NOT the wealthy paying for everything... It's NOT the poor or the middle class paying for everything... It's SHARED. It's like that HUGE log a team of Nave Seal recruits are required to carry... You know the one.

Now, with a dozen people carrying the log, it really wouldn't be too heavy if one of the guys stopped for a smoke.. The others COULD carry the load. But, they'd NOTICE that somebody thought he wasn't required to share, and they WOULDN'T like it one bit. Will sharing make the difference between the log getting carried or not? No, but it WILL make a difference in how everybody FEELS about each other.

What's so hard about that?

excon

"It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master."
(Ayn Rand )

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own neccessities but of their advantages."
(Adam Smith )

BTW... Warren Buffett owes $1 billion in back taxes .

You should stop going by what it "seems" to you and focus on what's actually being said.

Is half the country poor?

You are living with a spirit of poverty 50% can find no way out of their predicament and 50% want more

No Clete, I want a real answer. Is half the country poor?

Speech statistically 1 in 6 live in poverty. Being poor is a relative issue because the only measure you have is income or access to services. You cannot judge the level of poverty by the impact of the tax system because the tax system has been used to subsidise certain activities such as home ownership.

EX has put another strawman out there, that not paying tax includes you among the poor. By his standard some millionaires and billionaires are poor because of the level of tax they pay.

Let me put it this way, I pay no income tax but this doesn't mean I live below the poverty level

Hey Ex, you mean with closing American factories and going over seas for slave labor, or stuffing their mattresses with tax money and loopholes, or sucking all the money from the economy, sending youngsters over seas to die for them, or changing the name of fat cat to job creator, or making everyone grateful to be a dish washer, or maid, or calling firefighters, teachers, and police, lazy greedy bums?

Or the one where the right is mad about a Democrat, who happens to be a black guy in the White House??

Or the one that thinks a fence will keep them safe from the brown people, and their kids?

Or the one that can't stand the idea of a gay person with a gun, or wedding ring?

Or the one that can't stand people voting?

Or the one that doesn't believe in building anything they can't profit from?

Or the one that can't stand slavery being outlawed, so they hate the idea of a former slave living next door, or being as smart as they are?

Or the one where after they get theirs, they burn the bridge behind them?

Or the one where they don't think, they know they are better than the lazy bum down the street?

Be clear will you, which class war are you talking about. There seems to be a bunch of 'em going on.

Hey Tal you left some out

What about the War on Drugs, seems the outcome of that is class warfare

How about the War on Terror, which has terrorised millions of Muslims. That is a class war

But you are right you really do have a bad case of class warfare with your rich unwilling to pay for the bad policies they lobbied to get legislated

I got tired of typing Clete, and its Sunday football too, but politicians love to incite and fire up there political base to win elections. They all do it, and it's the biggest game in town.

That's why the world has to suffer, because any good news out of Washington keeps the Democrat in the White House, and that's all the Right Wing Cares about. They can't even fake it, and act like they want good policies that will work.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Thats why the world has to suffer, because any good news out of Washington keeps the Democrat in the White House, and thats all the Right Wing Cares about. They can't even fake it, and act like they want good policies that will work.

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I didn't figure you for a Republican Tal but surely a Democrat in the White House doesn't mean the whole world suffers, just a small part of it, although I will admit the suffering is spreading. I can't really say it is down to him though, he is only Johnny come lately. He has condescended to come for a visit in November so we will see if the level of suffering increases then.

From observation, and of course it is a long way off, these would be politicians seem all to speak off the same play bill. It seems both sides want tax reform, both sides want debt reduction, must be confusing

So in other words, ex is not interested in answering my question.

I can answer your question Steve, while the money has dried up for many of the American people there is still access to food, water, and shelter, and even medical care but that's still poverty in America, but no half is a bit high but 20-30 percent in some areas are unacceptable as a nation, since half of those numbers are children. Now they say the nation average is one in six, and that translates to almost 60 million people. And as I say half are children.

That number will trend up as the stimulus money wanes even more in the next 8 months. And yes even here in Texas those numbers are starting to rise, reflected in the unemployment numbers, and rising number of Medicaid, and welfare recipients increase. Most disturbing will be the cuts to come in education grants, mostly in the health care sector. Targeted at unemployed youth in this state, and the loss of federal dollars to hospitals and clinics that depend on those programs.

If you examine the trends that go back more than ten years, (you could go further if you include stagnated wages, and the aging population), you will see in the NEXT 10 years, a doubling of those poverty numbers simply because there will be more people who cannot qualify for the more technical better paying jobs, or even the vocational ones as we transition to a continuing higher level of educational qualifications.

Yeah we could lose a couple of generations to this brain drain which will be the basis of the growing poverty challenges we face now.

Did that answer your question, Steve?

Democrats think 50% should pay no taxes... and the other half that does work to earn their money should pay EVERYTHING.

And the left doesn't understand why jobs and money are going overseas. I'm hardly wealthy and I'm stuffing money overseas since I'm one of that 50% that actually does have to pay taxes. And yes... there are ways to do it that are essentually untracible... but I'm not revealing how.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Democrats think 50% should pay no taxes

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Weird you think that since policy was enacted by a Republican.

In 2007, about 38 percent of households paid no federal income tax, a figure that jumped to 49 percent in 2008, according to estimates by the Tax Policy Center.

In 2008, President George W. Bush signed a law providing most families with rebate checks of $300 to $1,200.

You are so wrong here my friend. The left knows full well why jobs go overseas and it has NOTHING to do with taxes, but MO' money from easy untapped markets and cheap labor. If it was about TAXES, where the freak was the capital investment for the last 10 years, when the FAT CATS not only had low taxes, and low wages, but loop holes up the butt?

The present recession and the BS about taxes was from greed, and robbery, that sucked all the loot out of the system. As long as you make this about taxes, you will never see that YOU WERE ROBBED.

Go ahead keep hollering taxes and lazy poor people, but you were robbed as much as I was. Now the villains are holed up with there loot, and you are screaming at the posse.

They have money to buy more politicians and holler uncertainty, while YOU, and the minions they stole from (me too!! ) defend them.

Unbelievable.

Really, that's what you want to think...

Taxes area HUGE part of why jobs went overseas... no its not the only reason, but it's a big part of it.

Liberals believe 90% taxes are fair for those that work the hardest, yet those who make no real effort to get ahead should get a free pass. Soun'ds like the old USSR... why break a sweat when the powers that be won't let you earn more than the guy selling cigaretts on the corner. Why bust your butt with 8 years of college and study when you get criticised for making more than the high school dropout that's barely literate stocking shelves at Walmart.

And that its not fair to expect everyone to pay equal percentages of their income in taxes. 24% of 10K is far less than 24% of 10 million... the "rich" still pay far more. But they get raped equally percentage wise.

Where equal actually IS the only "FAIR" thing to do.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I can answer your question Steve, while the money has dried up for many of the American people their is still access to food, water, and shelter, and even medical care but thats still poverty in America, but no half is a bit high but 20-30 percent in some areas are unacceptable as a nation, since half of those numbers are children. Now they say the nation average is one in six, and that translates to almost 60 million people. and as I say half are children..

Did that answer your question, Steve?

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Thanks Tal, but not really. It's actually about 15 percent in poverty as defined by the Census Bureau.

Based on the 2005 records available, the median "poor" in America have air conditioning, a clothes washer, a clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, VCR, refrigerator, an oven and stove, a microwave, and a coffee maker.

54.5% have a cell phone, 38.2 % have a computer, 32.2% have more than 2 TVs, 17.9% have a big screen TV, 9% have 2 refrigerators and 6% have a jacuzzi.

I'm not poor and I got my first big screen TV in December, I only have 1 fridge and I can only dream of owning a jacuzzi right now. As a scholar named James Q. Wilson said in 2002, “The poorest Americans today live a better life than all but the richest persons a hundred years ago.”

"Poor" is a deceptive term used in this country. Poor is my sponsored child Sizari in Peru. Poor is my sponsored child Imelda in El Salvador. Poor is my sponsored child Robert in an AIDS stricken community in Africa. Poor is not 3 TVs and a jacuzzi.

Now, ex said ”Seems to me, they're trying to say that the POOR should pay more taxes."

All I'm saying is half of America is not "poor" and most of them are definitely not too poor to not only contribute a few bucks to running this nation, but grabbing that mop you mentioned and helping someone else out just as I do.

Most of the rest of America's "poor" don't have it so bad, but for those who do I'm all for giving them a hand up - and helping them get to where they can "pay it forward" as well instead of not only keeping them on the Federal teat, but adding to the welfare rolls so some liberal can feel good about his warped view of "fairness".

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Is half the country poor?

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Hello again, Steve:

They're poor enough to earn LESS than is required to pay federal income tax - which is fine by me. As previously discussed, they pay PLENTY of taxes. The class war I speak of is YOUR desire to fill the hole we find ourselves in, by taxing the working poor more instead of the super rich.

I'd go the other way.

excon

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

All I'm saying is half of America is not "poor" and most of them are definitely not too poor to not only contribute a few bucks to running this nation, but grabbing that mop you mentioned and helping someone else out just as I do.

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Hello again, Steve:

You're not going back to that right wing lie that 47% of the people pay NO taxes at all, are you?? If that were true, then I'd agree. They should contribute something to running the nation...

BUT IT'S NOT TRUE!!

excon

If you are a working guy then you do pay a payroll tax, 20 to 30 percent of your wages, and that's money the government uses for services and programs.

Even if you get a refund after filing, you lose X amount of dollars every time you get paid. So that's a straw man that poor don't pay taxes, and it's that Government that allows for being poor in America to be a lot better than anywhere in the world. That doesn't mean we aren't poor, just not as hopelessly poor as 99 percent of the world.

And I know you are aware of the other American economy, run by poor people, for poor people, who barter, and hustle every day, to get those TV's and good they normally cannot get from the real economy. Its been going on for a few centuries, sort of like giving the doctor a chicken for services.

So just because you aren't dirt poor, doesn't mean you aren't poor, and by the way many in some areas of America ARE dirt poor. And there standards of living is abysmal, and make no mistake though the Consensus Bureau put an average number on poverty with perks, you cannot deny that the number is higher in areas where poor people and disadvantaged people live, heck Steve right here in Texas the unemployment numbers were higher than the national average BEFORE the housing bubble burst, and despite all the jobs created here, its still ticking up slowly.

WHY??

A big FACT you and the right keep overlooking is that every dollar of tax relief, or food stamps to middle class and poor people returns a dollar and 15 cents. Why because they spend it, and pay sales taxes. What you thought those were RICH people in Walmart, Targets, and Kroger's?

Conversely Steve, a tax cut for a hedge fund manager, goes to Wall Street, or overseas, to make more money. They don't have a payroll tax, just lawyers, and accountants directing money into tax shelters, and off country banks never to be seen by America again. They don't pay for the roads, or rails, your tax dollars do, or the police, and fire you depend on, and they use also, because they pay almost no tax on what they use to make money with.

Ever wonder why states sell roads to foreign companies and no American company will invest in them? There ain't enough money in it, or you can bet, rich Americans would be all over it.

But the do pay money for long term treasury bonds. I just ask you look deeper into the cause and effects and actions that are being taken to undermine an effort to CIRCULATE the wealth, and though you are doing what you can with YOUR mop, some people will RESIST getting a mop for themselves, let alone using it, to clean up there own mess they made.

Heck Steve, they don't want you to clean it up either.

INVESTIGATE.

HINT- Why would the congress not want to give the middle class an extension on tax cuts? Why are they against giving small businesses a tax credit, or provide for low interest loans from community banks??

Why??

Need another hint?

Okay, most small businesses are lawyers, doctors, consultants and other LLC's that don't create jobs. They pay no payroll taxes either. Do the math. Draw your own conclusions, and figure out which side of this class war you are on.

On another note, have you heard the joke, Corporations are people too?

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

They're poor enough to earn LESS than is required to pay federal income tax

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Again, they aren't poor and that's my point. Just ask ol' Warren Buffett, he's probably in that half that pay no taxes. If I had a couple of kids and a decent accountant I could probably get by with paying no federal income tax and I'm not poor.

I have no problem with those who actually live in poverty paying no federal income tax. I have no problem with those who are actually in need receiving government benefits. I'll go to the store myself and buy groceries for someone who is hungry.

It is NOT an issue of taking care of the needy because Americans are a GENEROUS people, ESPECIALLY evangelical conservatives who comprise a very significant portion of the people you are demonizing as having started a class war. I just happen to also believe that those who CAN take care of themselves should do everything they can to do just that, and believe it or not there are a lot of people who work the system for a living.

It doesn't make me cold hearted to be cautious about who gets a handout because I will help. BUT, if someone is scamming me they are taking from me what I could use on someone who really needs the help. Well my friend, this nation needs to stop coddling deadbeats. I don't care how much money the Kochs have, there is no fairness in demanding they support deadbeats and there is no dignity in keeping people dependent on government.

If my values offend you so be it, but I believe it's perfectly fine to be generous to the needy while expecting the rest to do everything in their power to take care of themselves so MY resources can be used where they are actually needed. Now multiply that to the federal level because as Maggie said, eventually we're going to run out of other people's money and I'd rather feed a starving child than buy some deadbeat another TV.

In Peru where Sizari lives, the median household income is $2600. At times they experience a 50% unemployment rate and more than half have no access to health care. The poor in Peru don't often have adequate sanitation or safe water to drink.

According to this site over 80% of the world lives on less than $10.00 a day. Additionally:

• Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
  
  Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.
  
  More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.

Now that's POOR.

So, back to your premise that Republicans just want POOR Americans to pay more in taxes. If they're POOR then no. If they're BLESSED to have food, water, A/C, a cell phone, 3 TVs and a jacuzzi, you're damn right I want them to pay SOMETHING in federal taxes.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

A big FACT you and the right keep overlooking is that every dollar of tax relief, or food stamps to middle class and poor people returns a dollar and 15 cents. Why because they spend it, and pay sales taxes. What you thought those were RICH people in Walmart, Targets, and Kroger's?

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Here it would be $1.08. So when do we run out of other people's money by giving it to a "poor" person so the dollar store can sell a bag of donuts and the government can get 8 cents of their dollar back?

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Conversely Steve, a tax cut for a hedge fund manager, goes to Wall Street, or overseas, to make more money. They don't have a payroll tax, just lawyers, and accountants directing money into tax shelters, and off country banks never to be seen by America again. They don't pay for the roads, or rails, your tax dollars do, or the police, and fire you depend on, and they use also, because they pay almost no tax on what they use to make money with.

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I have not asked for a tax cut for some hedge fund manager, I think Soros should pay federal taxes until it hurts.

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Ever wonder why states sell roads to foreign companies and no American company will invest in them?

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No, I have never wondered that. As far as I know all but the private roads in my area are owned by the city, county, state or the feds.

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some people will RESIST getting a mop for themselves,

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And some will suck us dry while the truly needy go without.

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And some will suck us dry while the truly needy go without.

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We agree.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

A big FACT you and the right keep overlooking is that every dollar of tax relief, or food stamps to middle class and poor people returns a dollar and 15 cents. Why because they spend it, and pay sales taxes. What you thought those were RICH people in Walmart, Targets, and Kroger's??

Conversely Steve, a tax cut for a hedge fund manager, goes to Wall Street, or overseas, to make more money. They don't have a payroll tax, just lawyers, and accountants directing money into tax shelters, and off country banks never to be seen by America again. They don't pay for the roads, or rails, your tax dollars do, or the police, and fire you depend on, and they use also, because they pay almost no tax on what they use to make money with.

Ever wonder why states sell roads to foreign companies and no American company will invest in them? There ain't enough money in it, or you can bet, rich Americans would be all over it.

But the do pay money for long term treasury bonds. I just ask you look deeper into the cause and effects and actions that are being taken to undermine an effort to CIRCULATE the wealth, and though you are doing what you can with YOUR mop, some people will RESIST getting a mop for themselves, let alone using it, to clean up there own mess they made.

Heck Steve, they don't want you to clean it up either.

INVESTIGATE.

HINT- Why would the congress not want to give the middle class an extension on tax cuts? Why are they against giving small businesses a tax credit, or provide for low interest loans from community banks???

Why?????

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That HAS to be Liberal math... not any sort of math that achieves a real answer.

The Government takes $1 off me... I have lost opportunity and can't spend it much less make money or invest it. And removes any incentive to earn another buck for that to be taken too.

Yet they claim that earns MORE money by giving it to someone that never earned it.?

It actually Looses money, not gains it.

Lets take YOUR entire paycheck... give it to the Project rats... lets see how much extra that earns for you and the government.

Sure the Project rats love the idea... but they are the only ones that profit over it. After all they got the paycheck someone else had to work to earn, not them. Remind yourself how much further ahead you actually are when bill time rolls around.

Pecular ideas. Smoothy you look to keep every dollar you ever earned, taxation is theft, right?

You want someoneelse to provide all those little services you need and use. Don't tell me you will pay yourself because these things can only be provided collectively. Your taxes buy roads, police, emergency services, bridges etc invisable most of the time and it should be extended to helping the less fortunate, keeps them out of your face, right?

I make the most of my check after taxes. Even when I was a project rat. Maybe I still am. That's not my value as a human, neither is my paycheck.

So do you sign the little box at the bottom of your tax return forms every year and donate a far bigger portion than you otherwise would have to pay? I'll wager you don't.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Pecular ideas. Smoothy you look to keep every dollar you ever earned, taxation is theft, right?

You want someoneelse to provide all those little services you need and use. Don't tell me you will pay yourself because these things can only be provided collectively. Your taxes buy roads, police, emergency services, bridges etc invisable most of the time and it should be extended to helping the less fortunate, keeps them out of your face, right?

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I expect EVERYONE to pay an equal percentage of taxes... which doesn't happen, and its those same leeches that don't pay any Federal taxes, that are the major recipients of Federal handouts. That of course I have to pay far more of since then pay none of it.

And yeah... I ticks me off in a major way.

smoothy how do you measure that the person on the poverty line should pay the same percentage as you do? Or is it you want the billionaire to pay the same percentage as you do. Flat rate tax doesn't work it punishes those who can least afford it. Would you agree to abolishing all deductions and allowances?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

smoothy how do you measure that the person on the poverty line should pay the same percentage as you do? or is it you want the billionaire to pay tehe same percentage as you do. Flat rate tax doesn't work it punishes those who can least afford it. Would you agree to abolishing all deductions and allowances?

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They should pay the same percentage... 24% of $10,000 is not the same dollar amount as 24% of $1,000,000. But it is a fair equal percentage of your income.

Actions have consequences... the choice to drop out of High school, or not apply yourself when you are there... doesn't earn you a right to a free ride for life.

What world do you live in? Not on planet Earth apparently. If you loose $2,400 dollars out of $10,000 the possibility is you won't eat some of the time. If you loose $240,000 out of $1,000,000 you still have $760,000 and the ability to live very well. The person who earns $10,000 should pay no tax and let's face it, it matters not to the person who earns $1,000,000

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Originally Posted by paraclete

What world do you live in? Not on planet Earth apparently. If you loose $2,400 dollars out of $10,000 the possibility is you won't eat some of the time. If you loose $240,000 out of $1,000,000 you still have $760,000 and the ability to live very well. The person who earns $10,000 should pay no tax and let's face it, it matters not to the person who earns $1,000,000

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So? Why should the person that busted their butt in school, and busted their butt in college, and then busted their butt paying for college along with doing a far harder job have to pay not only for themselves but ALSO pay for the lazy bum that coasted through high school (assuming they even bothered to finish it), made no effort at higher education, and is happy doing the easiest job they can find?

Most poor people are poor due to their own choices in life. Now I am speaking of here in the USA where you have plenty of opportunity IF you apply yourself. Not Ethiopia, Not Sudan, and not India.

You are responsible for the choices you make in life. And being stupid and lazy isn't a free ticket for a free ride.

Maybe raising taxes on rich people like you would be just the thing to spur investment, and stop being fat and lazy about that big bag of loot you sit on. Unless you printed it yourself, somebody had to help you make it right?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Maybe raising taxes on rich people like you would be just the thing to spur investment, and stop being fat and lazy about that big bag of loot you sit on. Unless you printed it yourself, somebody had to help you make it right?

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Gee, how about practicing what you preach... You should be happy to hand all your money over to be redistributed.

Or is it just like every other Democrat... you are only generous with other peoples money?

Trust me... my money would slip out of the country before they could seize it like the left would really love to do. Not that I have that much of it, but being Obama thinks I'm rich since I will be bearing the cost of his socialist programs... then why exactly should HIS millions be exempt from confiscation... and yes he does have Millions sitting in the banks.

And he is the Messiah isn't justification...

Or Hollywood. Why don't you take everything from the Hollywood types... and give it to the welfare bums? They hardly worked hard to earn it.

But then... anyone that can't see beyond their hatred of people that created this country... and want to exempt Hollywood who do nothing but pretend... really can't understand the real problem.

See how long we get by without big business? Not long I tell you. But we can get along quite well without Sports teams, and Hollywood for a very, very long time.

And besides... its my damn money, not yours, not anyone else's... I earned it, what I do with it is my business. And if I want to sit on it, its mine to sit on.

Why isn't Obamas millions invested someplace? He's got it stashed in several banks doing nothing that any big business isn't doing until someone that's pro-capitalism gets into office again.

Obama is no messiah, neither is the dollar. I worship neither, and neither do they define me.

Why do they define you??

They may not define you, but explain the rabid fury the left has to steal from those who work the hardest and those who have managed to become successful, to give it to those who are either too dumb or too lazy?

It doesn't "DEFINE" me either... but it has everything to do with providing for myself and my family, not only now, but after I am too old to work. Because heaven knows... I am the wrong racial background to expect handouts when I might need them. Particualrly with the correctly named Ponzi scheme, Social Security... take the money , waste it on other things, give it to people that never earned it, then after paying into it your entire adult life, when you need it, you get a sorry, but there's nothing left.

I don't have a big family... or a wealthy one... in fact I am the one who is best off in my family. I have no safety net, I have no one who can cover for me because thanks to Obama and what he did to the economy, they are barely able to take care of their own needs.

OK, if you aren’t tired of these so-called “Patriotic Millionaires” like Warren Buffet begging to be taxed more while refusing to send their extra money to the feds, maybe after this you will be.

Yesterday at Obama’s campaign event, “town hall” I believe he called it, an ex-Google employee asked Obama to raise his taxes. Right on cue of course, especially since he was a plant from the “Patriotic Millionaires.”

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“Will you please raise my taxes?” the man said. “It kills me to see Congress not supporting the expiration of the tax cuts that have been benefiting so many of us for so long."

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What’s really interesting in this is besides the fact the “Patriotic Millionaires” furnished Obama a plant for his campaign event, I mean town hall, and won’t give a generous offering to the government – is they want you to donate to their cause. They want YOU to pay for their campaign to raise other people’s taxes.

http://legalinsurrection.com/wp-cont...res-Banner.jpg

OK all you progressives, show us your patriotism and send them your money so you can get your taxes raised.

Americans think they are highly taxed when they are one of the lowest taxes countries on earth. Denmark has the highest taxes. The tea party is being totally unreasonable about never wanting to raise taxes. They seem to forget that their hero Ronald Reagan raised taxes when it was necessary. Progress won't be made until most tea party fools in the House are defeated and I'm pretty right leaning on economic issues. One thing I find odd is that the tea party's policies support the rich, so whey are their biggest supporters trailer trash morons who can't even spell properly on their signs at rallies?