Hello:
We're nearing a showdown. Neither side is blinking, because they THINK when the crap hits the fan, they can blame the OTHER guy, and solidify their POWER!
Who's right? Vote once, and your vote will NOT be anonymous.
excon
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Hello:
We're nearing a showdown. Neither side is blinking, because they THINK when the crap hits the fan, they can blame the OTHER guy, and solidify their POWER!
Who's right? Vote once, and your vote will NOT be anonymous.
excon
How about both sides fault, the political system is set up to blame the other party but keep control and get re-elected.
The other of course is that the US today is very divided, there is no controlling group or idea that is accepted to fix the problems.
I'm hoping the Repubs will realize that not raising the debt ceiling will come back to bite them. Not only the middle class and poor will suffer but also the big corporations (won't they?).
Hello Padre:
Yeah, I should have given you a both parties choice... Damn...
excon
Why have a debt ceiling at all ? The whole point of it was to limit Federal spending . Clearly if you just raise it as spending ever increases then it is not performing it's function.
This 'chicken with it's head cut off 'panic over the approaching deadline is good scare tactics. But it will not be a Mayan calendar event if it comes and goes . The government still brings in a fortune in revenue . Geithner would just have to reprioritize spending to make sure debt service is not neglected . There would then be no default and the rest of the revenue gets 'pay as you go '. This year revenues are expected to be $2.2 trillion,and the interest payments $300 billion.So long as the government has the money to pay off the debt interest then it is not in default.
Besides ,this deadline is complete a fabricated bogus date. 1985 the deadline came and went and then Congress raised the ceiling 3 months later... 1995 almost 5 months after the deadline .
To answer the question of the poll. It will be the Dems fault. They are holding fast on tax increases; and Sen Shumer has already admitted that the President has every intention of ignoring the deadline under the 14th Amendment's 'Validity of Public debt' clause. The Democrats are now contending the debt ceiling is unconstitutional under that clause .
Hello tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Hmmm... That's not my understanding.. The Dems are using the clause to IGNORE congress, because the Constitution REQUIRES that we pay our debts. Following the Constitution, Obama will authorize the treasury to PAY our legal debts, thereby AVOIDING a default.
excon
There is nothing about the debt ceiling that prevents Treasury from paying existing debt . That's the easy part . Debt payments are only 6% of the budget.
But that isn't what is being floated . We don't need new debt to pay off our obligations . What we do need new debt for is to continue the running of the government at it's current spending levels.
Therefore the debt ceiling has nothing to do with the 14th Amendment . It's very intent was to control government spending .If the debt ceiling is contantly raised (74 times in the last 50 years ) then why even have it ?
Hello again, tom:
So, you think NOT raising the debt limit will DO what congress ISN'T able to do?? If that's so, then I'd do it too..
But, I don't really think that's what it's about... I admit the economics are beyond me... But, they're not beyond the market.. If what you say is true, the markets will react favorably.. If not, they'll crash..
We'll see, won't we, because we're actually going to get there?
excon
yup ,that's the only reason to have a debt ceiling . If I was an investor I'dve lost confidence long before now. The difference between us and the PIGS is that we have a currency to devalue ;and we haven't been shy about that .Quote:
So, you think NOT raising the debt limit will DO what congress ISN'T able to do?? Then if I were them, I'd do it too..
Looks like the Senate Repubics are going to blink .
Republicans May Take ?Mini? Debt-Ceiling Deal - Bloomberg
Hello again, tom:
What LOOKS like a Republican cave in is really a trap for the Dems... I just think they should just pass it WITHOUT a peep or conditions, like they did for Bush 7 times . They're playing fast and loose with our economy, and WE, the people are going to LOSE. Those f***ing politicians don't care.
Yeah, it's the Republicans... I don't know why they think it'll do 'em good this time. They tried it before and it didn't work then.
excon
McCain: "the American people didn't want their taxes raised."Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The thing is, no Dem is trying to raise taxes for 98% of the "American people."
To say I'm confused about this is an understatement. The Government has a budget, which authorises expenditure, how then does it require further approval to do what it has already resolved to do? This is like saying I'll give you conditional approval, you can do it provided you can borrow the money to do it, but you can't borrow the money unless I approve it. Ridiculous convoluted politics designed to prevent a government from doing what it was set up to do.
It's like this: The federal government has bought, in good faith, a house and a car and a summer cottage. The mortgage payments and the car payment are due August 2. Will the government pay the mortgage payments and the car payment? Article 4 of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution says yes, it will; the Republicans say the government doesn't have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
That's what I don't get, how does a third party get to say anything about the obligation?
Oh, the Republicans probably want the US to pay its bills, but are arguing about HOW the US gets the money to pay the bills. They don't want any of it to come from the wealthiest 2% of the citizens. They want it to come from the middle class and the poor, especially the latter whom they consider a pox on the nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
What is convoluted is that a Congress ,that is madated by the Constitution with the power of the purse, needs to pass a law that constrains it from doing it's job, because it doesn't think it is disciplined enough to wield that power responsibily .
But that is exactly what a debt ceiling is ;an artificial constraint Congress imposes on itself because it can't control it's impulse to spend recklessly ,and grow the government out of control. The more I think about it ;I agree it is most likely an unConstitutional provision it impose on itself and future Congresses.
Much better if the American people would impose controls on them by adopting a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution .
Again I ask ;what is the purpose of a debt ceiling that can be changed any time spending approaches that ceiling ? What a charade!
Trouble is that ceiling gets higher and higher. Prices have risen since 1787. I remember when you could buy a pack of cigarettes for quarter from the vending machine in the hospital waiting room.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Was that in 1787? The idea of a ceiling is to give you cover but this ceiling covers nothing. What is also ridiculous is that a government can print more money without restraint, the Federal Reserve can decide on some quantitative easing anytime, so leave the ceiling where it is and pay the bills with lovely new billsQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I made that point earlier. Spending is so out of control that they want to do both ;devalue the currency and raise the ceiling..
What the Dems are not saying is that what is waiting in the wings ;if the Senate Dems get their way ,is another round of Keynesian pump priming that will again make the ceiling irrelevant .
This is not about inflation adjusting .It's about the uncontrolled, ever expanding Federal Government . It's really sad that when someone talks about just controlling the rate of growth they are portrayed as wanting draconian cuts . There are whole depts of the Federal Government that needs to be shut down and dismantled .Quote:
Trouble is that ceiling gets higher and higher. Prices have risen since 1787.
Tom I don't know if you have noticed but your currency has already devalued, these days the Aussie dollar is worth more than the US. What I've also noticed is that it is also negotiable in many parts of Asia. I wouldn't bother carrying US currency these days, not necessary even the back yard money dealers will buy aussie. Your days are numbered and you are busy agrueing about trifles as if it were important. We are waiting for the default and wondering whose going to lend you the money for the bailout. It could only be China and that has to come with a priceQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Hello again,
Well, it appears David Brooks, Republican columnist for the NY Times thinks the REPUBLICANS are going to get blamed.
He's right, of course... How come they don't know that?
excon
Brooks fell in love with Obama's 'crease in his pants' .He's still smitten .
The Courtship | The New Republic
Brooks is an inside the Beltway Republican who gives the Slimes the cover of saying they hire 'conservatives' .He is one of these 'conservatives' who think that the best selling point the Republicans have is to accept the progressive agenda and just be better managers of the big bloated Federal Government .
Here's a no brainer for Brooks... you don't raise taxes in a down economy.
If he's looking at it from a political angle;GHW Bush ran on a no new tax pledge. He then raised taxes because clowns like Brooks thought it was good politics to be seen as a compromiser . Bush got trashed in 1992 campaign because of that.
The current GOP House came in on no tax ,and control spending platform. If they fold on that they are history.
Don't worry Tom you haven't got the intestinal fortutide to raise taxes and make those rich kids pay
well? There is only one way to raise tax and that means you have to make it look like everyone pays, very unpopularQuote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Hello again, clete:Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Nahhh... What's popular is raising taxes on millionaires and billionaires... Are you NOT following the conversation?
excon
Popular with who Ex? Popular with those who receive their campaign contributions from millionaires and billionaires? Popular with Presidents who may only serve one term? No Ex they are only popular with those who are the most likely to be taxed. It's a popularist idea that there are large numbers of such sheep to be shorn and the fleece is long. But truth is, this isn't really so, unless you are going to tackle them with a very different tax base. The income tax system is flawed and rorted. It is inefficient and ineffective because it fails to actually raise the required revenueQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
The US income tax system raises an average of $8000 per individual and $90,000 per corporation. Given the size of certain individual and corporate incomes this is not verry impressive
Hello again, clete:Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
We agree.
excon
The President talks of millionaires and billionaires and proposes increases of people who's income is in the $250,000 range. But it sounds good because he gets to demonize a small segment of the population with his demagogery .
No Clete ;tax reveunes are more than sufficient for rational government spending;even during this downturn. If we had the same budget we had before Obama's 1st budget there would be more than enough revenue to pay for the government .
From MoveOn.org:
Like Paul Krugman and the rest of the far left believes, all that spending that got us here was bad when Bush was in office, but good now. Bullsh*t.
Hello again, Steve;
Here's what you righty's miss... It was spending COUPLED with a tax cut that caused the deficit, and spawned the video. After all, spending for what a nation NEEDS is just fine as long as you have the revenue to pay for it. All we have to do is go get it. Wall Street is doing very well, thank you very much.
All the far left wants is SHARED sacrifice... That means EVERYBODY gives a little... It's only fair. But, the concept of fairness is FOREIGN to Republicans... Here's your concept of fairness. What's mine is mine, and what's YOURS is mine. It just ain't going to work, Steve...
Let me AGAIN remind you of how a businessman thinks, and I'M a businessman... First and foremost, I DON'T run my business based on the tax code. I run my business based on supply and demand... I only hire new workers WHEN I can't meet the demand for my product... I DON'T hire new workers based on the tax code... There's not a businessman out there who does.
To say that increasing taxes on those who are doing VERY WELL will HURT the recovery, is just plain nonsense..
And, it's not about the money, really... You're right... Taxing the very wealthy to DEATH won't pay down the deficit... It's about the IDEA of shared sacrifice... I want the wealthy to SHARE in the pain of recovery... I don't HATE the wealthy. I have a few bucks myself. It's the IDEA that we're ALL in this together... They'll still have plenty left over - really.
Did you see Titanic? Do you remember the CONTEMPT the people felt for the captain when he got into a lifeboat AHEAD of the women and children?? Come on, Steve. You felt it too. THAT'S the same contempt the left feels for the WEALTHY who are sailing off into the sunset in OUR lifeboat, while WE go down with the ship.
But, the REAL issue, as I pointed out, is NOT about money, the debt or the deficit... It's about POWER and who thinks they'll come out on top of the wasteheap they're creating. They SUCK.
excon
Did I ever tell you that most of the top 10 wealthiest congressman are Democrats? Topped by John Kerry, Dems hold 7 of the top 10 wealthiest spots. The richest dude won't even park his yacht in his home state because he doesn't want any part of "shared sacrifice."
Conservatives are far more generous with their money than libs because unlike libs, we don't believe in taking your money to give to someone else. We give out of our own pockets, not your pockets.
Oh and Wall Street? Our president, who has consistently demonized Wall Street, is asking them for money to get re-elected.
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I'm not talking about charity... I'm talking about paying for the roads - and maybe the wars Bush started. Generosity has NOTHING to do with it. Paying their FAIR SHARE of the services they use has EVERYTHING to do with it.
Uhh, the wealthy drive, don't they?
excon
You keep on talking about 'fair share ' when the rich already pay disproportionate amts of the 'progressive 'Federal income tax. What the left wants is wealth redistribution ;not 'fair share' .
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
ALL taxes are wealth redistribution... But, that's an ideological discussion we can have down the road..
This issue NOW is MASSIVE cuts in services for the poor and the middle class, while the WEALTHY share NO pain... They're doing VERY WELL, need I remind you... But, to hold their noses in the air and say they WON'T share in the sacrifices the nation needs to make, pisses people off.
Did YOU see Titanic?? Didn't it piss YOU off when the captain got in the life boat and left the rabble to fend for themselves?? Sure it did... You're NOT heartless.
excon
You mentioned the "What's mine is mine, and what's YOURS is mine" attitude. I countered with the left's "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine to redistribute" attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I say ditch the Federal Reserve ASAP. This would solve that problem and America would be better off.
But who am I to say this? Presidents Lincoln, Kennedy both had this idea and look where it got them. The Fed voted with a bullet in their heads.
Real nasty accusation there twinkie, do you have evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by twinkiedooter
Since there was no Federal Reserve in 1865 I'd say we've entered tin foil hat territory .
Straight from the man who ushered in the "new era of civility," the twit-in-chief implied the GOP was holding a gun to the heads of Americans.
There is no bigger hypocrite in America today than our president.Quote:
"The debt ceiling should not be something that is used as a gun against the heads of the American people to extract tax breaks for corporate jet owners or oil and gas companies that are making billions of dollars."
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