Hello:

In many of my posts I've mentioned that we imprison MORE people than the entire world does, not only in absolute terms, but per capita too. I'll bet my friends on the right will say that that stat SHOWS our strength, resolve, success and leadership.

I believe it SHOWS our failure. We're in decline. China is eating our lunch. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite.

In fact, I believe our record as the worlds largest jailer FOMENTS the decline. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite. Rather than put words in their mouths, though, I'd like to hear from them...

excon

So.. the Alternative is letting the Criminals out to commit more crimes against others?

Because letting them commit MORE crimes... helps in exactly what way?

And decline is a result of more people not respecting the law or the rights of others, not because society want to lock them up.

China is in the position its in because much like California... the government has been spending far more than it had any business doing... on people it had no business throwing money at.


SO... you suggest... Immediate exicution for robbers... druggies... etc? That way they won't languish in prison for their violations? Because the alternative is to suggest they have the right to steal from others and violate the law.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

So..the Alternative is letting the Criminals out to commit more crimes against others?

Because letting them commit MORE crimes....helps in exactly what way?

And decline is a result of more people not respecting the law or the rights of others, not because society want to lock them up.

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Hello smoothy:

You're perfect. I appreciate your response.. What you say makes sense from a wingers perspective... It's the perspective that's wrong...

I don't know if you've noticed, but regardless of my name, I'm NOT a supporter of crime. I think BAD guys should be locked up. I simply suggest we REDEFINE what we think of as a "bad guy", and what we think of as "crime". As an example, I believe a bad guy is one who robs and rapes, and kills. YOU believe a dope smoker is a bad guy.

It shouldn't be hard to REDEFINE those words because we REDEFINED them once before. The REPUBLICAN governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels, is doing that very thing... Read about here.

Just ONE example is that he's doing away with mandatory sentences, and letting judges BE judges... Read the article, smoothy, and then tell me how wrong he and I are.

excon

Well, you have two options... keep the criminals in jail... which most don't like. Its punishment after all.

Or let them out, where they will commit their crimes again... after all... a slap on the wrist isn't much of a deterant is it.

No need to redefine crime... would you want the crook that busted into your store and stole all your stuff out on the street... or behind bars... would you want the child molestor down the street... in jail or out on the street?

After all... I don't have to redefine what a thief is... or a child molestor, not do I have to show them any sympathy for their actions.

I shouldn't HAVE to worry about leaving my house because someone wanted to redefine Thief to equate to Jaywalker... as some sort of Political Correct BS.

Commit murder during the commission of a crime... Bullet to the skull for all of the participants... molest a 6 year old... Bullet to the skull. Can't make restitution for those acts... can you.

THeft... you do and should do hard time... we worked hard to get that stuff, they should work even harder to pay for stealing it.

Dope smoker is a bad guy... just like any drunk driver is. And don't try and tell me drug users never, ever get behind the wheel of a car?

Alcohol is legal after all... and that has made all the alcohol related crimes go away I suppose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

In many of my posts I've mentioned that we imprison MORE people than the entire world does, not only in absolute terms, but per capita too. I'll bet my friends on the right will say that that stat SHOWS our strength, resolve, success and leadership.

I believe it SHOWS our failure. We're in decline. China is eating our lunch. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite.

In fact, I believe our record as the worlds largest jailer FOMENTS the decline. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite. Rather than put words in their mouths, though, I'd like to hear from them...

excon

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Well ex I can sympathise with your position, but when considering this situation you need to be aware of several factors that may be unique to your nation.; the availability of guns, position of long term unemployed and social security, the success or otherwise of your education system, your health care system and of course the availability and use of drugs.

To this you might reply but how is our law enforcement different? I don't think it is a law enforcement problem, it is a political problem caused by the nature of your laws and a capitalistic society which doesn't see a responsibility to care for the individual. Bad laws fill prisions, it is a fact that is only too obvious. The answer to social problems isn't to incarcerate the victims. But there is a price for all this liberty you guys shout about, when you tell someone they have the right to do anything, expect them to exercise that right to the Max. Sometimes is is better to have a few less rights and amore cohesive society

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I believe it SHOWS our failure. We're in decline. China is eating our lunch. I'll bet my friends on the right will say the opposite.

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Yeah that's right the Chinese are an example of progressive tolerance .

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Illicit drugs bring calamity to any country and people. Launching an anti-drug struggle to eliminate the drug scourge is the
Historical responsibility of the Chinese government. In old China, drugs once brought hideous disaster to the nation. But after
The founding of the People's Republic of China (PRC) in 1949, the Chinese government led the Chinese people in a momentous
Struggle against drugs. In a short period of three years, China wiped out the scourge of opium, which had scourged China for a
Century, thus performing a miracle acknowledged by the whole world. Confronting the new drug problem, the Chinese
Government, taking an attitude of supreme responsibility to the state, the nation and the people, and the mankind as a whole,
And standing firm in strictly prohibiting illegal drugs, has adopted all necessary measures and done its utmost to ban illicit drugs
For the benefit of the people.

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Narcotics Control in China

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Those convicted of drug-related crimes in China face harsh penalties, in some cases capital punishment. Drug abusers and addicts must undergo rehabilitation at police-run facilities or labor camps.

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Erowid Psychoactive Vaults : Drug Laws : China

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/wo...a/08china.html

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Narcotics-related crimes and use are also on the rise in China. Chinese law enforcement authorities have little tolerance for illegal drugs and periodically conduct widespread sweeps of bar and nightclub districts, targeting narcotics distributors and drug users.

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China

China adopts first anti-drug law

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Yeah that's right the Chinese are an example of progressive tolerance .


Narcotics Control in China

Erowid Psychoactive Vaults : Drug Laws : China

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/wo...a/08china.html


China

China adopts first anti-drug law

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But Tom... the Chinese are comunists... the far left aspires to be more like them. It's their ultimate goal. They actually WANT to be treated like dissenters are in China... so they can somehow place the blame for their actions on someone else where it might actually stick for a change.

I think you fellows need to understand something about China. The only thing that could clean up the corruption of centuries was a totalatarian regime and by example the only only thing that might ultimately clean up the corruption of the US is a totalatarian regime.

They found they had to purge certain ideas from their society. Let us all in western society hope that we can adjust without such measures but it won't come without doing the hard yards which means no tolerance to criminal activity, that is a criminal forfiets their rights and the recognition that some men are not equal, they are a blight. The chinese method of rehabilitation by forced labour and reeducation has some advantages.

Here are a few ideas; all criminals must undertake at least five years military service. All criminals must be taught a trade involving physical labour, all criminals must undertake a further period of community service after release. No convicted person is entitled to own or carry a weapon. All unemployed must undertake community service or be inducted into the military

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Here are a few ideas; all criminals must undertake at least five years military service. All criminals must be taught a trade involving physical labour, all criminals must undertake a further period of community service after release.

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There have been good reports from prisons whose inmates have worked to rehab abused animals, especially horses and dogs, and have worked on prison (organic,etc.) farms.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

There have been good reports from prisons whose inmates have worked to rehab abused animals, especially horses and dogs, and have worked on prison (organic,etc.) farms.

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Yes worthwhile ideas

Excellent 2 people on this thread have justified the Chinese
Totalitarian society.

Clete you are closer to there than we are . How could you not know that the Chinese system is a hollow house of cards Potamkin Village ? They are in a desperate race to expand before the whole house of cards collapses .

Hu is here and our shameless POTUS will no doubt grovel at his feet. But the truth is the PLA will take control of the government within the year and then watch out !

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Originally Posted by tomder55

excellent 2 people on this thread have justified the Chinese
totalitarian society.

Clete you are closer to there than we are . How could you not know that the Chinese system is a hollow house of cards Potamkin Village ? They are in a desparate race to expand before the whole house of cards collapses .

Hu is here and our shameless POTUS will no doubt grovel at his feet. But the truth is the PLA will take control of the government within the year and then watch out !

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Yes Tom we are closer than you are in more ways than one. Tom you have to look at all points of view and the Chinese have a more law abiding society than the US despite the number of political prisioners. People like me can walk the streets of China and have done so with no thought that they might be attacked or robbed. Contrary to your views China is progressing and while they may have invested too much in inferstructure which has no immediate use they have to deal with the problem of unemployment their own way. Which is better? Building buildings and highways or having civil unrest and repression?

The US has woken up to a reality, in order to preserve the dream they have sold the farm and now the landlord wants to collect the rent

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I think you fellows need to understand something about China. The only thing that could clean up the corruption of centuries was a totalatarian regime and by example the only only thing that might ultimately clean up the corruption of the US is a totalatarian regime.

They found they had to purge certain ideas from their society. Let us all in western society hope that we can adjust without such measures but it won't come without doing the hard yards which means no tolerance to criminal activity, that is a criminal forfiets their rights and the recognition that some men are not equal, they are a blight. The chinese method of rehabilitation by forced labour and reeducation has some advantages.

Here are a few ideas; all criminals must undertake at least five years military service. All criminals must be taught a trade involving physical labour, all criminals must undertake a further period of community service after release. No convicted person is entitled to own or carry a weapon. All unemployed must undertake community service or be inducted into the military

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Problem is most of the Chinese officials are at least as corrupt as the so called "Corrupt" people they supposedly replaced.

And if that wasn't already well known... the big earthquake they had, only reinforced it. By showing they were even more corrupt, than the NYC and Chicago politicians are. THe right amount of money the right direction you got to do anything... while if you DIDN'T pay them off... you got NOTHING at all done. In fact... Chicago Politicians are rank amateurs a far as corruption goes compaired to the Chinese local party officials.

Ex I would like to share with you some wisdom which comes from unlikely places the aboriginal race of Australia who in certain places are the most incarcerated people on earth relative to their population.

The aboriginal elder tells us that our whole view and system is wrong and causes the problem. If a black fellow gets into trouble what do you white folks do? You lock him up in a place where he has a roof over his head, a bed, three meals a day and lots of other things he can't afford. He has never had it so good, If you let us deal with the problem what we do is spear him through the legs and put him outside the camp, if he survives he is not allowed back.

So you see for these people jail is better than where they are and I suspect since blacks are promenient among your prison population the same is true to some extent.

I agree, having 23% of the world's prison population in a "FREE" country is ridiculous, you are not free at all, but then you have high statistics for pollution too so appears you do everything to excess

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Problem is most of the Chinese officials are at least as corrupt as the so called "Corrupt" people they supposedly replaced.

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No arguments with you, they have exchanged one form of corruption for another, but they have achieved a certain order out of chaos. They have an even more rigorous prosection of drugs than you do, but they are more serious about it, they are not so much focused on the users but the dealers. You spend your efforts chasing and jailing the users rather than cutting off the head of the snake. I suspect you fear the same sort of urban warfare that bedevils Mexico, leaving corruption aside. It's lazy policing

Back in the 1930s Time Magazine admired the Fascist efficiency also.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

back in the 1930s Time Magazine admired the Fascist efficiency also.

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No one is saying that we might not have fight a war with them someday

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

no arguments with you, they have exchanged one form of corruption for another, but they have achieved a certain order out of chaos. They have an even more rigorous prosection of drugs than you do, but they are more serious about it, they are not so much focussed on the users but the dealers. You spend your efforts chasing and jailing the users rather than cutting off the head of the snake. I suspect you fear the same sort of urban warfare that bedevils Mexico, leaving corruption aside. It's lazy policing

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If I called the shots... the trafficers would be taken out and shot... if they were caught with the goods red handed... it would happen right there. But I don't call the shots. Wouldn't necessarily do that to the users... incarceration is fine at that end for them.

But the users create the market... without the Junkies... no market would exist to exploit. So there is no innocent user... they share the blame with the trafficers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smoothy

If I called the shots....the trafficers would be taken out and shot...if they were caught with the goods red handed....it would happen right there. But I don't call the shots. Wouldn't neccessarily do that to the users.....incarceration is fine at that end for them.

But the users create the market....without the Junkies....no market would exist to exploit. So there is no innocent user....they share the blame with the trafficers.

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Yes, by all means punish the pushers, but the users need different treatment, big fines and rehab, not jail. No point turning them into criminals. They are victims, they got hooked, but any one of them that commits a crime to support their habit, deal with them. The focus needs to be on catching pushers, not users. So decriminalise users, but become really tough on pushers and don't let the cops off with chasing users, it's too easy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Yes, by all means punish the pushers, but the users need different treatment, big fines and rehab, not jail. No point turning them into criminals. They are victims, they got hooked, but any one of them that commits a crime to support their habit, deal with them. The focus needs to be on catching pushers, not users. So decriminalise users, but become really tough on pushers and don't let the cops off with chasing users, it's too easy.

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THey aren't victims... they got hooked on their own... they weren't kidnapped, and injected against their will.

And there isn't a person breathing that doesn't know they can get hooked on any and all of them, some more easily than others.

Playing the victim card is a cop-out. That's like blaming the carjacker as being the victim of being without reliable transportation. Or Rapists as being the victim of being without a willing partner.

Not so, smoothy, many are hooked as teens, when they aren't thinking of consequences. Your analogies are stinking thinking and it is that sort of thinking that has made US the biggest jailer in the world, their only growth industry at the moment. No one who commits a crime against society is innocent but people who commit a "crime" against themselves aren't in the same class.

Do you understand why people do drugs? It says a lot about the conditions they live in.
Do you think other societies don't have the same availability of drugs? Truth is they are freely available everywhere, but the take up rate is different and it has to do with the structure of society and a society that plays the blame game doesn't have the answers and the incarceration rate proves this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Not so, smoothy, many are hooked as teens, when they arn't thinking of consequences. Your analogies are stinking thinking and it is that sort of thinking that has made US the biggest jailer in the world, their only growth industry at the moment. No one who commits a crime against society is innocent but people who commit a "crime" against themselves arn't in the same class.

Do you understand why people do drugs? It says a lot about the conditions they live in.
Do you think other societies don't have the same availability of drugs? Truth is they are freely available everywhere, but the take up rate is different and it has to do with the structure of society and a society that plays the blame game doesn't have the answers and the incarceration rate proves this

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Doesn't matter... they still did it themselves... no excuses. As they say... Old enough to play... old enough to pay.

Drugs are NOT a valid escape... most kids do them thinking its "Cool" to do so... just like Binge drinking... going Clubbing, etc. People that claim otherwise have never been with that crowd. I'm not so old... or grew up so priveledged I wasn't exposed to it or even saw it regularly.

I saw it... I saw the people do it... I listened to why they did it... I listened to them try to convince me to do it for the same reasons they did. I made the choice not to.

None of them did it to cope... they did it because THEY wanted to party... THEY wanted to do it because THEY wanted to do it.

Nope... nobody is going to get that excuse past me... I spent too much time around that, I saw people using... I saw people dealing... I saw many of them start using... and remember their reasons... because I grew up with them... and none of them was the woe is me... I have things so hard I just have to make them worse.

I know people I was close friends with die... I saw them ruin their lives over things like POT. I have a guy who was a friend who is due to get out in 4 more years from prison in Italy for possession of Hashish... was caught on the jobsite with it by drug sniffing dogs wher I used to work. He was an Engineer for Motorolla Corp. He got 25 years in Don Bosco Prison.

Blaming the dealers for their drug use is like blaming the Cigarette company for your choice to smoke... or the Beer Company for your DUI you got after getting in your car after tossing back a few cold ones.

Sorry victim doesn't apply to drug users... victim does apply to the family killed by the drunk driver... victim does apply to the people who got robbed by the Meth head or the heroin addict needing their next fix.


Actions have consequences... and when you make that action... you are no longer a victim.

Hello again:

Marijuana by the numbers:

$36 Billion - the value of the illegal pot industry - the LARGEST cash crop in the country.

$12.5 Billion - the value of our corn crop, its closest competitor.

$6.2 Billion - SAVED in drug prosecution if pot were legalized.

$7.7 Billion - ADDED to the national coffers if taxed like alcohol.

100's of 1,000's of jobs - ADDED to the national workforce if pot were legalized...

In fact, it's being legalized right now, town by town, state by state. I vote we cut to the chase put $13.9 BILLION into our pockets...

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

In fact, it's being legalized right now, town by town, state by state. I vote we cut to the chase put $13.9 BILLION into our pockets...

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What other benefits would there be to legalizing pot? Quality would be controlled? Users would be "controlled"?

Hello again, Carol:

Sure. Drug dealers don't ask for ID nor do they test their products. Plus, it would cripple the cartels, and it would STOP ruining the lives of our citizens... Yes, the WAR against pot has ruined many more lives than the drug itself ever has.

excon

Lame excuse for durg addicts who can't beat their habit.


I suppose you could use the same arguments For Heroin... Cocaine and Meth too. After all... Legalize one... got to legalise them all. Then where does any of it get you.

Drugs are for people that can't cope with life on its own terms.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Drugs are for people that can't cope with life on its own terms.

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But drugs, like alcohol and tobacco use, would benefit from being controlled, wouldn't they?

Many drugs are controlled by being banned. The FDA has a whole slew of them that aren't approved .

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But drugs, like alcohol and tobacco use, would benefit from being controlled, wouldn't they?

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Illegal Drugs ARE controlled right now... they are illegal. As they should be.


As far as Tobacco? Except for the fact, tobacco doesn't effect you like alcohol or drugs do as far as reflexes and judgement... I'd lump it in too.

And incidentally... I don't give the drunks a free pass either just so that's clear.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Illegal Drugs ARE controlled right now.....they are illegal. As they should be.

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Hello again, smoothy and tom:

I think Carol was addressing the REAL WORLD, and not your right wing fantasy. I know they've got some words written down somewhere, and THAT, you believe, KEEPS drugs away from your children...

Is that what you believe?? Really?? Nahh... You're lying... You KNOW you're lying, and you know that your political blinders won't let you STOP lying... You're on automatic. Poor fellows.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy and tom:

I think Carol was address a REAL WORLD situation, and not your right wing fantasy. I know they've got some words written down somewhere, and THAT, you believe, KEEPS drugs away from your children....

Is that what you believe???? Really???? Nahh... You're lying... You KNOW you're lying, but your political blinders won't let you STOP lying.... You're on automatic. Poor fellows.

excon

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At least we aren't stoners that have nothing better in their life to focus on then getting high... or worrying about getting stoned.

What to talk about the REAL WORLD... how about giving up the drugs and joining it.

The real world doesn't get stoned or worry about getting stoned. Drug addicts do.

How would I keep drugs out of my kids hands... First I'd kill the SOB dealer... thats really not all that hard, no real loss to the world either.. Then if my kids screwed with drugs... if they thought reality was hard to deal with... wait until they found out what hard really is.

I have to ask... what are you guys smokin?