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Hello:
As mentioned in my recent thread, incivility isn't the problem. If this guy had walked up to his congresswoman and been UNCIVIL, we wouldn't be having this conversation... Nope. He SHOT her - with a GUN So, it's the talk of GUN PLAY that's the problem. What's so hard to understand?? GUN PLAY! I don't know how that got conflated with yelling at somebody... I LOVE incivility. I ain't pledging to be civil to nobody. How does everybody get so sidetracked??
excon
If we really ramped up the imflamatory rhetoric we may get to the place the country was in the Jeffersonian/Jacksonian era.
During the Jackson /JQ Adams contest the Adams faction was calling Jackson a murderer and a cannibal... and his wife a harlot.
The biggest difference between then and now is the incivility gets broadcast on the net . Back then the bloggers and MSM of the time ,the pamphletters ,just didn't reach huge audiences ,and these instances were contained and consigned to the historical record.
I also would like to point out again that this basturd had zero interest in debate civil and otherwise . He checked out of civil society and into his own reality .
He is really no different than the guy who tried to off Teddy Roosevelt, in a case that was eerily similar to Saturday.
1912 a psychotic saloonkeeper John Schrank,decided to take out Teddy Roosevelt. No one is sure when and if he ever had a strong interest in politics ,(he did object to TR going for a 3rd term) , but he did claim to be strongly influenced by a dream. He dreamed the ghost of William McKinley
Directed him to kill TR to avenge his assassination by anarchist Leon Czolgosz .
Schrank stalked TR until he found that he was to give a speech at the Milwaukee Auditorium and he attacked TR outside his hotel . He pointed a .38 pistol at his head and fired.
A bystander saw the gun and deflected Schrank's arm just as the trigger was pulled. Still the gun fired point blank at TR's heart.
Fortunately for Roosevelt in his jacket pocket was a 50 page speech double folded ,and his metal eye glass case . The bullet ripped through his clothing and the fortunate body armor and logged into TR's rib cage .
Roosevelt carried on and gave a 90 minute speech with the blood stain growing as he spoke. He could only whisper and said to the crowd... 'It takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose ' .
Rossevelt and Taft split the Republican vote and Woodrow Wilson became President.
Shrank was declared 'insane delusions, grandiose in character' and spent the rest of his life in an asylum.
Look we can all agree that this goose was insane, but there needs to be perspective in political debate as in all interaction. If I see inflammatory speech in political debate I know that that person has already lost the argument and have little to contribute.
Who can say if an outcome of inflammatory speech and attitudes as was displayed in this instance led to an unstable person acting on it, but what we can say for sure is that the availability of a weapon facilitated his action. There is just too much of the blow things up or blow him away attitude.
Then again... if someone there had been armed perhaps he could've been stopped sooner. One thing I have to wonder about is why wasn't there a police presence at a major political event ? This sheriff who continues to flap his gums hasn't answered that yet.
There was. One of the men who had sat on Loughner (Joseph Zamudio) was carrying a handgun. In an interview soon after the shooting, he said he had been on his way out of one of the nearby stores and was headed toward his car when he caught sight of the mêlée. He reached into his pocket and pulled back the safety of his handgun just in case he had to use it. He said he was ready to shoot and kill. He was able to help hold Loughner and keep him from using his gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Very much what if thinking and being an armchair judge. This was hardly a major political event but it may have warranted a police presence. What you have to decide is are people naturally belligerent or naturally docile. This was an after the election meeting probably no need to think it was anything specialQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
So whatever the truth about this dude is, this tragedy is still the fault of those bitter gun totin' religion-clinging right-wingers. Is that what you're saying?
I blame John Kerry, he shouldn't have been campaigning for president with a shotgun in his hands.
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/512...6BF04B24B4128C
Hello again, Steve:
If you've followed me here, you'd KNOW that I'm not placing blame. I don't make a direct link. I'm only SUGGESTING that some nut MIGHT take advantage of the permission he receives from SOME politicians to use guns...
I'm only suggesting that GUN talk be stifled. Here in this great country of ours, you can think Sharron Angle was (and IS) your ideal politician. You are allowed to think it's cool to talk about shooting your opponents.
That's fine. I'm used to you being wrong. If John Kerry did an add with a shotgun, he's wrong too.
excon
Ok then, it was all that war imagery the left uses...
How to win the war on global warming
Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty
The Republican War On Science
War On Greed
Rupert Murdoch's War On Journalism
Or if you really want to get serious about how nonsensical the discussion has gotten, a visit to Zombietime should put it in perspective.
I detailed in the Jesse Ventura op that this had nothing to do with the political debate (unless you think things like 'truthers' ,'world wide banker's conspiracies ',and listening to the voices in your head, are part of the political discourse )
Hello again, Steve:
I see that you, like your political brethren, can't distinguish between mean and ugly political rhetoric, and talk of GUN PLAY... Furthermore, you don't even appear to be aware that I'm MAKING that distinction... Dude.
Sharron Angle suggested that if people don't like the way an election turns out, they can use their GUNS. YOU think my complaining about that is nonsensical, even though some nut just shot a politician. Dude.
Like I said, I'm used to you being wrong... I haven't changed my mind.
excon
Charles Manson was inspired by Beatles music , Hinkley by an obsession with Jodi Foster , Chapman by passages of 'Catcher in the Rye' ,the Colombine killers by Marilyn Manson and the Matrix .
This clown was inspired by the internet documentary 'Zeitgeist' (a net movie that more than one expert here recommended ) . Would it be fair for me to point out that those who recommended it to me were complicit in feeding thoughts of homicide ? Of course not.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
THIS is NOT about him... I don't know what inspired him, and frankly, you don't either.. He's a NUT... Maybe a grasshopper inspired him... I don't CARE. THIS POST is about POLITICIANS who say GUN PLAY is an option... It IS a possibility that Sharron Angle inspired him, isn't is??
Deflect all you will.. I'm not going to let you... This is about POLITICIANS who think GUN PLAY is a viable alternative to elections... It's not about WAR.. It's not about yelling at people.. It's not about fighting... It's about SHOOTING people!! I don't know what's so hard to get.
excon
It's about politicians you don't like making marshall references which are common metaphors to the political contest.
Who was more responsible for political violence in this country in the last 50 years ? Tea Party types or left wingers ? I remember the late 60s very well.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yeah, that's what you guys say. You're wrong. It's about politicians giving PERMISSION to shoot the candidate they don't like... You SAY it's common, but it ISN'T. SAYING that if you don't like the results of an election, you can SHOOT your opponent ISN'T very common where I come from.
It's OK.. I suppose it's winger denial that prevents you from understanding, that when a politician calls for people to USE their "Second Amendment remedies", it actually means it's OK to SHOOT people.
Now, you'll talk about war metaphors, and fighting metaphors, and marshal reference metaphors... But, that stuff doesn't give PERMISSION for a disgruntled citizen to SHOOT people. Sharron Angle did just that.
I don't know what so hard to understand.
excon
So Sharon Angle inspired the shooting ? No you'll say it wasn't her or about him even as you pull the linkage out of thin air with no evidence. Maybe that's the civility and rhetoric problem the President is referring to ;the over the top speculations over causation . I honestly don't know why you are using her as an example over W Va Senator Manchin who actually fired a rifle in an ad . Do I think he inspired a shooting... no. And no reasonable argument could be made to create a linkage either .
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Sure, him too. Honestly, I'm using Sharron Angle because she didn't mess around with what she was saying. She was clear, concise, and straightforward. You got to applaud her for that.
You're also right... I don't need a reasonable argument to LINK the events, because I'm NOT LINKING them. It's ANOTHER deflection...
But, I wonder... Are you saying that unless and until, we can actually FIND the link in this deranged gunman's brain, then it's COOL to call for your opponents assassination?? I think you MIGHT be saying that... Bummer.
excon
Ex, just because I don't play along doesn't mean I don't get the distinction you're trying to make. In fact, I just find it irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
No, I just know that most Americans are not nuts.Quote:
Sharron Angle suggested that if people don't like the way an election turns out, they can use their GUNS. YOU think my complaining about that is nonsensical, even though some nut just shot a politician. Dude.
I have a gun, more than one, I talk about guns, read articles about guns. My dad has many guns, he carried before it was legal, he taught me and my 3 brothers all how to shoot. We'd go to Grandma's house and as young as 8 he would let me strap on a .22 and just go shoot tin cans or whatever else we could make a target of. I even played with GI Joe and little army men. I'm playing my 4th version of Halo, and am waiting delivery on a Call of Duty game. I've played several other first person shooters as well. Heck, I've watched John Wayne and Clint Eastwood movies... I've never shot anyone and as far as I know no one has been driven to murder because of my example.Quote:
Like I said, I'm used to you being wrong... I haven't changed my mind.
My mom and dad were held hostage and robbed in their own home and he could have killed the man, but he stayed calm and evaluated the situation and just knew the guy wasn't out to hurt anyone. Everyone got out alive.
All this rot about gun talk AND the political rhetoric from the right is NONSENSE, we are not stirring up the masses to violence. This guy had a beef with Giffords since 2007, long before the Tea Party and while Bush was president. He had a long history of bizarre behavior documented by the Pima Community College he attended. Like the Ft Hood shooter the signals were there but no one did anything. And yet, within minutes of this tragedy knees jerked all over the country, and suddenly I am implicated in a murder.
Me? Yes me. I voted for Palin and McCain, I own guns, I'm a conservative, I've encouraged the people to "take back" their country, and you know what, implicating me in a mass shooting pi$$es me off. Just like I've been unfairly and unjustifiable demonized as a racist bigot, which also pi$$es me off.
The left and their accomplices in the media have abandoned reason, justice, fairness and facts and targeted millions of Americans just going about their lives as being dangers to society and that is far more irresponsible than whatever gun talk that has your panties in a wad. In my opinion, you'd think all these people calling us bitter, gun totin', religion-clinging murderers would stop pushing our buttons.
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
In your next lifetime... In THIS one, you got ME to deal with.
excon
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Relax... I didn't accuse "we". You're not responsible for Sharron Angle, other than denying what she's saying... But, that doesn't make you guilty of stirring up anything... It just makes you wrong.
I've been quite clear... If you want to call what I'm saying an attack, it's an attack on any politician who uses GUN PLAY as an oblique suggestion..
excon
Aren't you the one complaining about PC ? If you like I'll rehash the history of vitriolic over the top rhetoric by our politicians that would make today's version appear to be amateurs.Quote:
But, I wonder... Are you saying that unless and until, we can actually FIND the link in this deranged gunman's brain, then it's COOL to call for your opponents assassination?? I think you MIGHT be saying that... Bummer.
When conservatives in Texas put a 'wanted for treason' ad about JFK in circulation prior to his trip to Dallas in 1963 ,did that inspire his assassin ? Of course not . Oswald was a commie infatuated with Castro.
It is a red herring to even suggest the political rhetoric of the day led to this attack.
By the way... Francophones in American leadership in the late 18th century used to have replicas of Guillotines on their office shelves.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
It WOULD be a red herring IF I suggested that. But, I didn't. Let me say it again... I don't know WHAT inspired this nut... It doesn't matter.. I don't NEED to know. I don't care. My post ISN'T about him. It's about politicians who suggest that you can SHOOT your opponents if you don't agree with them... I'd be saying it, and DID, even IF nobody got shot.
It's about WHAT SHE SAID... She was clear. She was concise... She didn't pretend she was saying something else. YOU, on the other hand, cannot seem to understand what she said... How is it, that you misunderstand her?? What do you think Second Amendment remedies are?? Or, are your political blinders keeping you from seeing what's right in front of you?
This post is a pretty simple proposition. It's about HER, and what she said - NOT HIM. I've said it here about 20 times.. I don't know what's so hard to get.
excon
Relax, ex. I'm not accusing you of attacking me or anyone else. You're really too much of a pu$$y cat to be taken for a threat (geez, can't even say pu$$y cat here without being bleeped).
No, unlike those I AM accusing, I placed the bulls-eye where it belongs, such as those referred to in the links provided.
The right to bear arms is the right to own guns... not to murder . Do you think she was advising her supporters to shoot Harry Reid ? I don't think you do. I don't believe you think the 2nd amendment is a licence to kill either .Quote:
What do you think Second Amendment remedies are??
Do you think this statement by JFK was inciteful ?
Those who make peaceful resolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Wow... Talk about red herrings... This isn't about what I believe, you believe or Steve believes. This is about what Sharron Angle said. This is it:
------------------------------
"You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.
I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out."
------------------------------------------
I don't think she could have been clearer.
excon
You don't believe Angle was inciting her supporters to shoot Reid do you ?
Speaking of Jefferson :
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants,"
Inciteful ?
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Inciting?? I don't know... Giving them permission?? YES.
On another thread, you were looking for some PLAIN ENGLISH. Here's some plain English:
"I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around?"
excon
Angle's remark was not incitement, but a foreshadowing of the possibilities prescribed for in our constitution intentionally. The left just comes right out and calls for the death of their enemies.
With talk like, are they surprised we carry guns?Quote:
■ “I'm waiting for the day when I pick it up, pick up a newspaper or click on the Internet and find out he's choked to death on his own throat fat or a great big wad of saliva or something, you know, whatever. Go away, Rush, you make me sick!” — Left-wing radio host Mike Malloy on the January 4, 2010 Mike Malloy Show, talking about Rush Limbaugh going to the hospital after suffering chest pains.
■ “Rush Limbaugh is beginning to look more and more like Mr. Big, and at some point somebody's going to jam a CO2 pellet into his head and he's going to explode like a giant blimp. That day may come. Not yet, but we'll be there to watch.” — Chris Matthews on MSNBC's Morning Meeting, October 13, 2009.
■ “So, Michele, slit your wrist! Go ahead! [chuckles] I mean, you know, why not? I mean, if you want to — or, you know, do us all a better thing. Move that knife up about two feet. I mean, start right at the collarbone.” — Montel Williams talking about Representative Michele Bachmann on Air America's Montel Across America, September 2, 2009.
■ “He is an enemy of the country, in my opinion, **** Cheney is, he is an enemy of the country... You know, Lord, take him to the Promised Land, will you? See, I don't even wish the guy goes to Hell, I just want to get him the hell out of here.” — Ed Schultz, The Ed Schultz Show, May 11, 2009.
■ Author/humorist P.J. O'Rourke: “It's the twilight of the radio loud-mouth, you know? I knew it from the moment the fat guy-”
Host Bill Maher: “You mean Rush Limbaugh and Sean-”
O'Rourke: “-from the moment the fat guy refused to share his drugs... ” Maher: “You mean the OxyContin that he was on?. Why couldn't he have croaked from it instead of Heath Ledger?” — HBO's Real Time with Bill Maher, February 8, 2008.
■ “I hear about Tony Snow and say to myself, well, stand up every day, lie to the American people at the behest of your dictator-esque boss and well, how could a cancer NOT grow in you. Work for Fox News, spinning the truth in to a billion knots and how can your gut not rot?” — San Francisco radio talk show host Charles Karel Bouley in a March 27, 2007 article at The Huffington Post that was later pulled “at the request of the author.”
■ “I'm just saying if he did die, other people, more people would live. That's a fact.” — Host Bill Maher on his HBO show Real Time, March 2, 2007, discussing how a few commenters at a left-wing blog were upset that an attempt to kill Vice President Cheney in Afghanistan had failed.
■ “Earlier today, a rental truck carried a half a million ballots from Palm Beach to the Florida Supreme Court there in Tallahassee. CNN had live helicopter coverage from the truck making its way up the Florida highway, and for a few brief moments, America held the hope that O.J. Simpson had murdered Katherine Harris.” — Bill Maher on ABC's Politically Incorrect, November 30, 2000.
■ Host Tina Gulland: “I don't think I have any Jesse Helms defenders here. Nina?” NPR's Nina Totenberg: “Not me. I think he ought to be worried about what's going on in the Good Lord's mind, because if there is retributive justice, he'll get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will get it.” — Exchange on the July 8, 1995 Inside Washington, after Helms said the government spends too much on AIDS.
■ “I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like many black men do, of heart disease... He is an absolutely reprehensible person.” — USA Today columnist and Pacifica Radio talk show host Julianne Malveaux on Justice Clarence Thomas, November 4, 1994 PBS To the Contrary.
P.S. Roy Sekoff said on Ed Schultz' show yesterday, "The energy and the dynamism is really with the Tea Party, but so is all the crazy and the outrage. And that's where the danger lies." This was AFTER the president did the right thing and said political discourse had nothing to with the shooting. The crazy was in the suspect's head, not the Tea Party.
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
So, you really think you can defeat the US? Let's pop that right wing fantasy right here.
The idea that your puny guns are somehow going to save the republic is LUDICROUS... Muskets in the hands of citizens, at some time in the past, were equal to the muskets in the hand of government. Ergo, the citizenry COULD have actually impressed their will on the government...
Uhhhh, not any more...
Your guns are for fun, self defense and shooting a politician or two. Sharron Angle said so.
excon
Some guy named David managed with a sling shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Fiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I was going to say, only one opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
This from the same people who say that Afghans and Iraqi insurgents are beating the best army in the world.
They aren't beating them right now, but they'll outlast and outnumber them.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Ditto... Wolverines!!
If it is then it's appropriate to discuss it with all this fiction about gun talk and right-wing rhetoric.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
In 1948, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq with a contingent from Saudi Arabia attacked Israel. How'd that work out for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
By the way... Ex always uses the Heinlein quote about an armed society being a polite one.
Has anyone checked out gun ownership rates per capita in countries like Switzerland ,Finland ,or even Sweden ? There is no big hysteria about banning weapons in those nations ,and gun ownership is big in all 3 . The Swiss issue M-57 assault rifles to all men and require them to undergo military training . When they are discharged they keep their weapons . The government frequently sells surplus weapons to the population.
Political Pundits Surprisingly Good At Getting Inside Mentally Unbalanced Shooter's Head
January 14, 2011
NEW YORK—According to media analysts, the nation's TV commentators and political pundits have proved uncannily accurate when describing the deeply disturbed inner thoughts of accused Arizona gunman Jared Loughner. "It's strange, but when it comes to getting inside the mind of this human being who seems to possess no empathy, sense of morality, or hold on reality, and who is motivated only by personal animus and self-glorification, the nation's major political pundits have been amazingly adept," said Horizon Media analyst Bob Cullen, who has studied extensive tape of commentators on all major TV news programs and found their remarks on "what the killer is thinking" to be consistently thorough and detailed across the board. "It's almost as though they have some way of knowing, firsthand, exactly what this demented and highly dangerous individual with the eyes of millions upon him is going through." Researchers at Horizon Media also reported that a number of prominent TV pundits appeared to be mimicking the same chilling gleam in Loughner's eye for what they could only speculate was "dramatic effect."
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