Ask Me Help Desk - Do you consider the censorship of a literary classic acceptable ?

Do you consider the censorship of a literary classic acceptable ?

Well do you?

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Furore over 'censored' edition of Huckleberry Finn
File picture of the cover of the first edition of 'Adventures of Huckleberry Finn', published in 1884 The American classic is the fourth most-banned book in US schools

* Why are parents banning school books?
* Mark Twain in his own words
* Is Tom Sawyer still a top read?

A new edition of Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is causing controversy because of the removal of a racially offensive word.

BBC News - Furore over 'censored' edition of Huckleberry Finn

All this PCness never ceases to amaze me..

This preceded the Huck Fib story: BBC News - Why are parents banning school books?

No... Not at all. Its total Bullsh*t. Particularly about a word in Tom Sawyer, that referred to friend of Huck Finn... that you will hear 10 times a minute on any HipHop music video channel on TV.

Bunch of damn crybabies... jeeze. Talk about their parents raising a bunch of pussies.

Two issues here" - one is about banning books, and the other is deciding what to actually include in the shool curriculum.

First, with respect to a banning books - there is no reason to ban any books from high school libraries that are not outright pornograpic. A well stocked High School Library should include books such as "Catcher in the Rye," "Huck Finn," "I Have Two Moms," "Mein Kampf," "Mao's Book of Quotations," and even (horrors!) the Harry Potter books. There is no excuse to restricting high school students from having access to all these.

As for what books to actually study as part of the school curriculum - "Huck Finn" definitely belongs in the canon of High School literature. However, because it uses the "N word" over 200 times, and because that word in modern times has become toxic, the fact is that many districts just plain won't risk upsetting students and/or parents. So they don't include the book in their curriculum. If replacing the N word with "slave" 200 times means that some of those school distriucts will now give kids a chance to read this American classic, then I say "hurray." I would support using the sanitized version in class, but the original miust be available in the library, and students must be told up front that the book is edited from its original (much like broadcasters do with sanitized movies on TV). And also include class discussion around the use of such words, and why Twain used it in the book.

Hello ben:

You can't wipe out history because you change a word. Just like you can't turn torture into something else by changing a word.

excon

Twain never meant Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer to be children's books. He was making social commentary much like Swift's Gulliver's Travels(he peed on the town of little people to put out a fire) .

How is Shakespeare handled ? Are 21st century sensitivities used when reading the modern text of Macbeth ? Yes . I rarely hear the witches brew read correctly in the original text.

Should it ? I don't know... probably not. Shakespeare's attitudes about Jews reflected the times he lived in. Today the text is clearly inappropriate.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Shakespeare's attitudes about Jews reflected the times he lived in. Today the text is clearly inappropriate.

But isn't that to be part of the discussion in an English or lit class? And Shakespeare and Twain are only two writers whose works reflect their times and the prevailing attitudes/activities. Should we prevent Hester Prynne from getting pregnant? Should we have the beheaded people in A Tale of Two Cities get whipped instead? And certainly Grandfather should feed Heidi something more nutritious than black bread and goat cheese!

Don't worry, they have plans to rewrite Mine Kamph to explain how Hitler was really a saviour of the Jews to make it politically correct.

WG When was the last time you heard the witches brew recited in the original text ? I don't think the revision takes away from the play.

The examples you cite are not really the same . The witches brew reflected a raw antisemitism. I'm not sure the use of the 'n' word in Huck Finn reflects the same prejudices.

Wasn't that actually written in Old English for the original words used... which is much different than modern english (before they got PC on it.)? I know I can't read old English though I've seen it.

In the original text the brew included 'the liver of a blaspheming Jew'. I've seen and read the modern text... and that has been removed .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The witches brew reflected a raw antisemitism. I'm not sure the use of the 'n' word in Huck Finn reflects the same prejudices.

Precisely - if it did, then the book would not be the classic it is. The N word helps articulate the gulf that existed between the even the lowliest of whites (Huck) and blacks. The process of bridging that gulf is of course the point of the book. A truly radical idea in 19th century America.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

WG When was the last time you heard the witches brew recited in the original text ? I don't think the revision takes away from the play.

I don't know if I've ever heard or read the revision.

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The examples you cite are not really the same .

PC is PC. Altering any text simply to be PC is wrong.

Hello tom:

I'm trying to follow your discussion with WG. Like any good librarian, she's AGAINST censorship.. She believes that children SHOULD be exposed to the classics, and DISCUSS them in class.

Are you saying that the removal of the antisemitic remark is cool, but changing Mark Twain isn't? I can't tell.

excon

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Originally Posted by tomder55

in the original text the brew included 'the liver of a blaspheming Jew'. I've seen and read the modern text... and that has been removed .

Of course that should remain in the play. That's part of the discussion!

When are the book burnings, every nation that started to control what is written and what can be read, takes over the press and then burns the books.

I vote we go after excons playboy books next.

But yes my wife was "shocked" we have all of these books and have this year included then in Nate's ( our son" school work. I hope it is not reported to CPS making him read banned material.

I'm not either for or against changing Huck Finn ,because the removal of a word overused doesn't change the story .

I don't think Twain meant it as the same pejorative that Shakespeare did. Not only in Macbeth ;but in other works like the character Shylock in 'The Merchant of Venice',he exposed his inner feelings.

Edit . The question really is ;should it be part of a high school curriculum ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I'm not either for or against changing Huck Finn ,because the removal of a word overused doesn't change the story .

Hello tom:

I'm trying to figure out what you just said... It makes absolutely NO sense... I'm sure it's the justification censors use. It's just flat out wrong... Because the result ISN'T Twain's story. It's the CENSORS story..

What I don't get, is why you don't get that.

excon

Actually Huck Finn was grade school and middle school reading,

And yes I think the change does make the tone, and the harsh meanings of the words.

The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.
- Mark Twain

Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet B Stowe used the "n" word over a 100 times. Should it be rewritten, too?

Maybe we should fit the Venus de Milo for a bikini top and Michael for a banana sling.

I would love to be able to hear Twain's thoughts on this debate.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Actually Huck Finn was grade school and middle school reading,

And yes I think the change does make the tone, and the harsh meanings of the words.

I read it (actually most of Mark Twains books) in gradeschool... fairly early on too. Didn't make me prejudiced against either blacks or Indians... and know what... THEY weren't offended by it then either.

So how when a black in certain socioeconomic classes can't utter a sentence without using it 3 or three times be offencded when they use it all the time.

And Incidentally I went to school with two Navaho Kids (brother and sister)... they never took exception to Injun Joe.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

But yes my wife was "shocked" we have all of these books

Does that mean she wants offensive words taken out of books? I wouldn't hurt her for the world, but Twain put that word in for a reason (and he was as offended by it as I am). The important thing is that we all, including students, need to talk about the word and what it meant back then during Huck's time. (I grew up in NC during the '40s and '50s and saw the prejudice up close.)

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Originally Posted by tomder55

edit . The question really is ;should it be part of a high school curriculum ?

Yes!!

I don't consider this censorship. Edited or revised texts are frequently used in the school systems.

But Huck Finn frequently gets outright banned from schools because of the original text . You tell me which is worse ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I don't consider this censorship. Edited or revised texts are frequently used in the school systems.

There are edited and revised texts and there are edited and revised texts.

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But Huck Finn frequently gets outright banned from schools because of the original text .

And it shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Actually Huck Finn was grade school and middle school reading,.

Really? Are you sure you're not thinking of "Tom Sawyer?" I do remember reading Tom Sawyer in 6th grade, but Huck Finn was in 10th grade. I would say that middle school is way to young to understand the social commentary in "Huck Finn," and it would be watered down to be merely a story about two guys on an adventure.

If you're hard-up for reading material, here you go --

ALA | Banned and/or Challenged Books from the Radcliffe Publishing Course Top 100 Novels of the 20th Century

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

There are edited and revised texts and there are edited and revised texts.

And it shouldn't be.

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But Huck Finn frequently gets outright banned from schools because of the original text .

And it shouldn't be.

But it is... that's the reality .It is one of the most banned books in America . Schools systems won't bring this worthy book into their curiculum.

But the story is a story of tolerance and should be taught . This revision doesn't change the story or the lessons in the book . I don't see it as a great harm at all.

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

Well do you ??

BBC News - Furore over 'censored' edition of Huckleberry Finn

All this PCness never ceases to amaze me..

This preceded the Huck Fib story: BBC News - Why are parents banning school books?

I heard this on the news yesterday. It's bunk!

This sort of PC gets my sphincter hairs in a knot!

I do see it as a harm... because they are changing what is actually in the book to someone's politically correct idea of what SHOULD be in the book. That changes the Authors intent. And at some point these certain groups that are now hyper sensitive and getting their panties in a knot about anyone other then THEM using a certain work will see how stupid they look when they still use it themselves constantly (yet think nothing about using slurs against any other group as well),. then people are going to never have read the book as it was originally published.

These are usually the same people that argue we should give the southwest back to the spanish south of the border... like THEY are the ones that collonised Spain, and not came here FROM spain and took it off THAT bunch of idians first. ( Long list, Inca, Axtercs Xapotecs etc) None of them had spanish blood. Before the Spaniards arrived. And yeah... a large percentage of them have spanish blood, not pure Indian (native american or whatever you with to call it this week) ancestry who not unlike here... are now a minority on their own ancestoral lands.

Just because they stole something 200 years before we stole something doesn't make it right for them and wriong for us.

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Originally Posted by RickJ

This sort of PC gets my sphincter hairs in a knot!

Yet this website censors words. :p

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Yet this website censors words. :p

Most websites do... but none of us are on Par with Mark Twain or Willaim Shakesphere... besides there are ownership rules with websites.

What we type here isn't legally or literally our words or property, they become those of the site owners. Under copywright laws. Talk to a lawyer... they will back that up, I have.

Yes... I know a thing or two about running websites. Nearly a decades worth in fact. Not as a mod... not even just as an Admin... but as a superadmin at the direct server acess level. Where you tweak the PHP code. And that's not my day job.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Yes....I know a thing or two about running websites.

I'm running a very large one right now!

**** *** **** ***** ****!
:)

Rick,

http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachm...aughing024-gif

I must clarify.

Yes, we do censor words here because we are not a book or other published material.

We are a website were people can choose to join, read or not.

A published book is a different thing altogether. It is the same in that people can choose to read it or not, but a book is a book. If it's published, then it should be "as is" unless the author agrees to the edits... period.

Removing words from an author's work(s) without the authors approval is ludicrous.

... unless you're in a country where this sort of thing happens: I click my heels, raise my hand and shout Heil Hitler!

Why do people always invoke Hitler for issues they don't agree with? I never understood that.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I'm running a very large one right now!

Doesn't that make it awkward to stand up at the office? :D

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Why do people always invoke Hitler for issues they don't agree with? I never understood that.

Why not? He is the [one of many, actually] epitome of a bad dude that duped so many into following him for a bad purpose.

Lemmings are bunk. Those that followed Hitler et al are a bunch of stupid Lemmings.

Thankfully most of them that are still living agree.

And here we are in the good old U S of A where so many Lemmings are willing to give up so much for the benefit of... of... of what, I do not know.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Doesn't that make it awkward to stand up at the office?

Hehe. I play a good straight man.
<cue the gay jokes>

Ok you f******g f****t, bring it on. Come over to my house and we'll duke it out over a couple of cold ones! :p :p