Ask Me Help Desk - Here we go again!

Here we go again!

In a few days various exalted personages, that is those who seem to know more that the rest of us, will meet in Cancun Mexico to talk up global warming and climate change. There has been little promotion of these talks as there was at the last summit except for a new report saying we have been right all along, temperature is rising. My quibble is not with whether temperatures are rising, although I do think the statistics are a little short term to be sure of anything, but with the assertion that our life style causes it and we have the ability to stop or reverse it.

When they can get a real correlation between the increase in greenhouse gases and the increase in temperature I might believe them but until then I remain a skeptic and squarely in the camp of this fits a long term natural trend of interglacial period temperatures and our activities are coincidential.

Cancun ? Well there they know it will not snow ,and chances are good there will be "warm" days.It appears they've learned not to hold these conferences in places it might snow.

Two weeks in the sun ,sucking down margarita's, to have a go at another attempt at creating a tradable global carbon market. If they fail to agree this time ;well ,at least they'll come home with a good tan .

It'll fail again because the Chinese object to the pesky and "inconvenient "American provision that all pledges be “measurable, reportable and verifiable.”

Nothing meaningful will happen there .They have at least learned their lesson about building up expectations. Perhaps last year they were seduced by what they believed was the magical powers of persuasion of the latest Nobel Peace Prize winner. This year ,he's nursing stitches from a basketbrawl game ;and few world leaders will attend at all.

This will be a meeting of bureaucratic apparatchik partying by night ,sleeping in cabanas or under the sun by day... all on the taxpayer's dime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

It'll fail again because the Chinese object to the pesky and "inconvenient "American provision that all pledges be “measurable, reportable and verifiable.”

Hi Tom,

I think this is correct. In the end the earth may be warming but the available data doesn't support this claim. As it stands the evidence for global warning is inconclusive.

Regards

Tut

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As it stands the evidence for global warning is inconclusive.

Which warning was that Tut? The warning not to believe everything we are told? Perhaps not to believe the warning from that exalted personage Gore? I think we should pay attention to some other things that might cause some big changes in the next century or so. Global warming might be the least of our worries

Hello:

Here's my take on it. I'm NOT a scientist, but throwing garbage into the air IS going to do something bad. I don't need a scientist to tell me that... Besides, we ARE running OUT of fossil fuels, so even if they DON'T cause global warming, we're going to have to find an alternative in any case...

So, why don't we concentrate on THAT?? IF global warming IS true, we're going to kill TWO birds with one stone... If it's NOT true, we're still going to kill ONE bird... That's good, no?

excon

PS> Actually we'll kill THREE birds with one stone... We'll STOP enriching our enemy's, and maybe build up our OWN economy... That's good, no??

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

Here's my take on it. I'm NOT a scientist, but throwing garbage into the air IS going to do something bad. I don't need a scientist to tell me that... Besides, we ARE running OUT of fossil fuels, so even if they DON'T cause global warming, we're going to have to find an alternative in any case....

So, why don't we concentrate on THAT??? IF global warming IS true, we're gonna kill TWO birds with one stone.... If it's NOT true, we're still gonna kill ONE bird... That's good, no??

excon

PS> Actually we'll kill THREE birds with one stone... We'll STOP enriching our enemy's, and maybe build up our OWN economy... That's good, no???

I agree we shouldn't just put junk into the air water and land but lets face it. This carbon credit thing is just a transfer of wealth. We have tighter controls at least here in America already. But lets face it. We can't be the only ones and there is truly nothing we can do to "make" the rest of the world comply. And the giant sloth of government isn't going to move quickly into anything unless they can make a buck off it or gain votes. Even with our current technology we could double the gas milage of cars but the government is stopping us from doing so. We as consumers need to steer the technology and also get out of the rut we have been in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by califdadof3

We can't be the only ones and there is truely nothing we can do to "make" the rest of the world comply...

Hello again, dad:

I wasn't supporting any particular legislation. I'm just pointing out a problem and a possible solution. My POINT is that the problem and its solution have NOTHING to do with whether you BELIEVE in global warming, the Goricle, or climategate... Because THAT is where the argument seems to focus. It MISSES the mark. I wonder if HATRED for Al Gore and all things leftwards, blinds us to the real problems we're facing. It LOOKS that way to me.

No, dad. We can't "make" the world comply... But we can LEAD the world, like we always have, so that it WANTS to comply. And, we DO that by making alternative energy PROFITABLE. We fan the flames of green technology by offering government incentives. Yes, it involves some spending, or as I prefer to call it, INVESTMENT. The Chinese are doing it. We really don't want them to get the lead in that industry, do we?

Truly, it'll solve ALL our problems... Really - ALL of 'em.

excon

PS> Yes, I know... My friend tom and I agree. The technology has NOT yet revealed itself to us. To ME it means that we haven't invested enough. To tom, my guess is, it means we've invested too much, or it's too soon, and WAITING for the technology to come about is the thing to do.

PPS> If it also happens to solve the problem - or NON existent problem - of global warming, that's an EXTRA benefit.

The technology exists today that we can use to go green. But the very people that scream green don't want it. The other part of the equation is we have to learn to accept failure. Yes I said it. We need to learn when we have made a mistake to correct our compass and move on. This do over mentality isn't cutting it. Another thing that isn't being addressed is the risk factor. It seems the line being towed currently doesn't want risk and thinks it has to be an absolute winner every time they make a commitment. For every "win" there is a loss somewhere. We need to mitigate those losses carefully in order to make a future.

My son just spent time working in Birmingham AL. He told me they don't recycle anything there. It just goes in one big garbage bin.

Has anyone seen the commercial down there about plastic water bottles. It's a Bottle on a board table after a meeting and it says something like here for a minute but forever in a land fill.

I know for sure we are consistent here in Ontario at least, and I guess I can speak for other provinces as well. Maybe some of our Canadian members in different provinces can chime in. We employ many people in our garbage sorting facilities to make sure it is actually done at the bottom line.

So I guess what I am saying is everyone has to get their act together to initiate climate chain, and that would almost be impossible to do given the scope of area and people involved.

If Birmingham AL can't recycle anything, then I guess that says a lot.

How many actually posting here sort their garbage, wet, dry, compostable. I hardly have any wet garbage aside from meat scraps and they can't go in my composter, but all organic stuff does, and that goes back into my garden after its composted. I hardly have any wet garbage that has to go to the dump.

Tick

Quote:

How many actually posting here sort their garbage, wet, dry, compostable. I hardly have any wet garbage aside from meat scraps and they can't go in my composter, but all organic stuff does, and that goes back into my garden after its composted. I hardly have any wet garbage that has to go to the dump.

How fast can I raise my hand for all the above ? My wet garbage is indeed the smallest container. I even have the advantage of a black bear who is willing to turn my compost periodically .

I don't drink water from plastic bottles .Everyone who does should research Bisphenol A (BPA). I filter tap water and store it in metal hiking bottles. Besides I'm cheap and think even discounted retail water is a rip off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickle

How many actually posting here sort their garbage,

Hello tick:

Before your post, I would have thought that the entire country was on board with recycling.. Maybe it's because I live on the left coast. But even the deep south thinks recycling is good... No??

I've got to get out more.

excon

Yes ex, throwing trash in the air is bad, but this isn't about climate policy any more.

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First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello tick:

Before your post, I would have thought that the entire country was on board with recycling.. Maybe it's because I live on the left coast. But even the deep south thinks recycling is good... No???

I've got to get out more.

excon

Son noticed it because recycling is second nature to him, so when he had recycleable material, he started looking for somewhere to put it in his hotel and was told, no just put it in the regular garbage. We have coloured boxes here, blue boxes are recycling. How do you do it ? Do you have color coded boxes ? All recycling is put out at the curb in clear plastic bags.

Tick

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickle

How do you do it ?

Hello again, tick:

The city provides containers for garbage, recycle, glass, and yard waste. There's a fine if you put stuff in the WRONG container.

Doesn't EVERY city do that?

excon

We have the color coded bins. The only thing is that I can't vouch for what the carters do once they pick up. This is NY .

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Yes ex, throwing trash in the air is bad, but this isn't about climate policy any more

Hello again, Steve:

Yeah, he has his agenda. I'm just trying to save the world.

excon

Edenhofer is a UN IPCC official ,so his agenda carries some weight into this meeting .

Here is another guy who let out what his true desire was after the Copenhagen meeting .

'Given the failure of Copenhagen, I'm inclined to believe that semi-annual conferences are not the way to go. Instead, I'd like to see the United Nations assemble an international and permanent emergency session that is parliamentary in nature (i.e. representative and accountable) and dedicated to debating and acting on the problem of anthropogenic climate change (a sub-parliament, if you will). The decisions of this governing board would be binding and impact on all the nations of the world.'"[George Dvorsky, a director of the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies]
Sentient Developments: Five simple reasons why the Copenhagen Climate Conference failed

This is not about the earth warming or cooling,or if we can find the next energy source. This whole charade is the latest attempt at world governance.

When that is realized and the Kyoto process finally mercifully dies then perhaps rational diologue and true science can again emerge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

This is not about the earth warming or cooling,or if we can find the next energy source. This whole charade is the latest attempt at world governance.

Edenhofer touched on that, too, in the same interview. He said, "basically it's a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization."

With Climategate, the science president's administration making crap up to stop drilling in the gulf, the Goracle's admission that his support for ethanol subsidies was just to get votes and these clowns admitting that science is beside the point, why isn't everyone fed up with this hoax?

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Edenhofer touched on that, too, in the same interview. He said, "basically it's a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization."

With Climategate, the science president's administration making crap up to stop drilling in the gulf, the Goracle's admission that his support for ethanol subsidies was just to get votes and these clowns admitting that science is beside the point, why isn't everyone fed up with this hoax?

Its not a hoax. It has grown beyond that to a religion. And a very dangerous one at that.

And we know how dangerous religion can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

why isn't everyone fed up with this hoax?

Hello again, Steve:

Doncha remember when I said it doesn't matter if we believe it or NOT? The solution to OTHER, more pressing problems will fix climate change, IF it's a hoax, or if it's not. You're not saying, are you, that you don't want to fix our energy problem because Al Gore is full of it about global warming?? I think you ARE saying that...

Boy, is THAT head in the sand thinking.

excon

PS> By the way, if WE fix our energy problem, it'll nip the liberal global government plan in the bud too. If you're soooo pissed at the libs for trying that, I'd think you'd be on board... No, huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by califdadof3

Its not a hoax. It has grown beyond that to a religion. And a very dangerous one at that.

Agree with you in that, and given the views it has all the appearances of Nazism. You are allowed one view and only one, Zieg Heil!

Yes, ex, how can I forget? Here's the thing, if we don't know that there is any such thing as anthropological global warming, what are we fixing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

what are we fixing?

Hello again, Steve:

We're fixing the problem running out of oil causes. That's a REAL problem. If we FIX it, we'll ALSO fix anthropological global warming, if there IS such a thing.

You're not saying, are you, that if there isn't such a thing, then we shouldn't fix our energy problem? Nahhh, you're not saying that... Are you? Dude! I think you ARE saying that.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

We're fixing the problem running out of oil causes. That's a REAL problem. If we FIX it, we'll ALSO fix anthropological global warming, if there IS such a thing.

You're not saying, are you, that if there isn't such a thing, then we shouldn't fix our energy problem? Nahhh, you're not saying that... Are you? Dude! I think you ARE saying that.

excon

Now Ex there's another problem we think we need a fix for that the evidence is fairly thin for, what you are really saying we can't get it out of the gound fast enough and refined and we need a fix for that, now that I can agree with that.

What's your definition of "fixing?"

Like remaking the whole health care industry to take care of a small percentage of needy people, which doesn't even cover everyone and provides a growing number of waivers (including two unions that lobbied for Obamacare, insurance companies, one county and a state agency that helps people find insurance)?

That kind of fixing? Yeah, the kind of fixing that provides expensive, complicated, burdensome solutions looking for a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

What's your definition of "fixing?"

Like remaking the whole health care industry to take care of a small percentage of needy people, which doesn't even cover everyone and provides a growing number of waivers (including two unions that lobbied for Obamacare, insurance companies, one county and a state agency that helps people find insurance)?

That kind of fixing? Yeah, the kind of fixing that provides expensive, complicated, burdensome solutions looking for a problem.

Why the dummy spit? I have no idea why you have to link a failed health care system with climate policy. If your politicians are too inept to see a way out of your problems then get rid of them.

You have these problems because you have an aversion to social security solutions to the problems of the poor and under privileged and think that capitalism provides a solution to all problems rather than being part of the problem

I agree that some things don't need fixing. I don't happen to think cap n trade will fix climate problems, nor do I think putting a price on carbon is necessary or a solution to anything. There is a problem we all will have to face and that is the increasing price of oil and energy and along with that food and many other things, right around the time someone thinks it is a good idea to peg wages at the low end. You can pay for your problems with higher taxes or you can pay with higher prices but you can't escape paying this side of the divide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Why the dummy spit?

I have no idea what a "dummy spit" is, but the example I gave is entirely relevant to my point, why should I endorse expensive, complicated, burdensome solutions looking for a problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I have no idea what a "dummy spit" is, but the example I gave is entirely relevant to my point, why should I endorse expensive, complicated, burdensome solutions looking for a problem?

As I said if you can't convience your politicians, dump them. I have agreed with you we don't need much of this environmental crap produced by the left side of politics. BUT there is a difference between health care and climate policy. I don't like populist politics at the best of times but there are things a rich nation can do to look after its people. One of your right leaning politicians thought no child should be left behind, at the same time he though tax cuts and playing with housing a good idea. Politics is full of both bad and good ideas the trick is to know which of them are really needed

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

What's your definition of "fixing?"

Like remaking the whole health care industry to take care of a small percentage of needy people

Hello again, Steve:

Nahh. I'm a capitalist after all. Hefty tax incentives for innovation. Prizes for invention. Government can prime the pump, and it should. Do I believe there is an alternative source, or a combination thereof, that will maintain our lifestyle?? You betcha. I don't plan on going back to the stone age. Do you?

Look. I don't know IF there IS a way out of our energy problem, but if we go down, we should go down swinging. But, to say, that we're not going to invest in alternative energy sources, because you hate Al Gore too much, is kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Nahh. I'm a capitalist after all. Hefty tax incentives for innovation. Prizes for invention. Government can prime the pump, and it should. Do I believe there is an alternative source, or a combination thereof, that will maintain our lifestyle??? You betcha. I don't plan on going back to the stone age. Do you?

Look. I dunno IF there IS a way out of our energy problem, but if we go down, we should go down swinging. But, to say, that we're not going to invest in alternative energy sources, because you hate Al Gore too much, is kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

excon

Who is the one dictating the alternative energies? Common sense or those that are enviromentalists?

So far the latter has managed to do enough damage to our system then any other and they do wish to return to the stone age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by califdadof3

Who is the one dictating the alternative energies? Common sense or those that are enviromentalists?

Hello again, dad:

Neither. BOTH are contaminated with wrongheadedness. The wackos on the right who absolutely WON'T get on the green train because they hate Al Gore too much, and the environmental wackos the left. But, I agree with your premise. Politics on BOTH sides is getting in the way...

My solution? Turn it over to business, and let them innovate and invent.

excon

PS> Hopefully, my calling a new energy source "the green train" doesn't cause your Al Gore knee to jerk. It could hurt you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

Neither. BOTH are contaminated with wrongheadedness. The wackos on the right who absolutely WON'T get on the green train because they hate Al Gore too much, and the environmental wackos the left. But, I agree with your premise. Politics on BOTH sides is getting in the way...

My solution?? Turn it over to business, and let them innovate and invent.

excon

PS> Hopefully, my calling a new energy source "the green train" doesn't cause your Al Gore knee to jerk. It could hurt you.

Until such time as we can perfect fusion there is no green train. Its only a caboos trying to push a dead engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by califdadof3

Until such time as we can perfect fusion there is no green train. Its only a caboos trying to push a dead engine.

Hello again, dad:

Wow. I didn't know you righty's had so little faith in American ingenuity.

excon

What is missing in this discussion is that the Goracle did promote an alternate fuel that in reality had zero chance of replacing carbon based energy sources. He claimed to support reducing the carbon footprint and chicken-littled about the consequences if we didn't climb aboard his bus.
He now reveals that his primary motivation was not to find an alternative to carbon based fuels ,but instead his own electoral prospects .

This in fact is illustrative of what will happen if we continue to allow politicians to make our energy choices for us. They will always go for parochrial and personal interests over the greater good... especially when someone else's money will pay for it.

Is there an alternative to oil ,gas ,coal ? Maybe... I favor using existing technologies .But,as 'dad' has already pointed out more than once, the public is way too risk adverse in all things related to energy.

American ingenuity... hmm. Why did Thomas Edison invent the incandescent bulb ? It was not because some planner ordered him to . He did what free men do, invent stuff.

It was only after he proved it a commercially viable alternative to things like gas lights ,which had replaced whale oil lanterns, that the governments of the country step up to the plate and invest in the infrastructure.
The government should not be wasting our money on a gamble and a pipe dream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

But, to say, that we're not going to invest in alternative energy sources, because you hate Al Gore too much, is kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

It might be, IF I had ever said that. You're still working on assumptions.

Hi Tom we all know that there is a viable alternative to carbon based technologies, it is somewhat more expensive but we have a little political problem, if we adopt it then we have to share the technology with everyone and there goes the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and those pesky Iranians and NK have a free hand. Difficult decision and one that I don't think americian ingenuity is up to. We also have the problem that it won't be long before we face the same shortages we are looking down the barrel of now. Personally doesn't affect me, my nation has vast reserves and we like digging holes in the ground

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

Wow. I didn't know you righty's had so little faith in American ingenuity.

excon

Interesting that you side with the eco freaks here. Lets take a look at ingenuity for a minute. We run electric trains that are driven by diesel motors. They are efficient. We have ways already to exceed 100 mpg in common cars but yet our government stands in the way because its different. Lets use the example just posted in the message before. Edison. Would you hold him up as an icon of ingenuity ? Or was he a business man who ran rough shot over his own people to gleen as much profit as possible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by califdadof3

Lets take a look at ingenuity for a minute. We run electric trains that are driven by diesel motors.

This you call ingenuity? The oil fueled internal combustion engine in any form is still an oil fueled internal combustion engine. Whose technology is the diesel engine? Replacing the carbon cycle with the hydrogen cycle is ingenuity. Generating electricity by chemical reaction as in a fuel cell is ingenuity. Discovering your economy can actually exist without slavery is ingenuity

What we all need is different thinking, not more of the same

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Discovering your economy can actually exist without slavery is ingenuity

Chicken of the Sea closed its cannery in American Samoa last year because the federal government mandated a $7.25 an hour minimum wage. Over 2000 workers lost their jobs. However, 200 new jobs were created in Georgia when they moved their operations. Starkist announced 800 layoffs this year for the same reason. That kind of ingenuity?

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What we all need is different thinking, not more of the same

In lieu of a "bolder approach," a couple of Democrats have offered this kind of different thinking, "a new strategy of gradualism" (please note the sarcasm font has been engaged).