Well, guess just what I heard on FOX (GOVERNMENT NEWS) Network. Knew it was coming, starting Jan 23, 2007, all new passports will have a computer chip implanted in them with your personal information stored on the chip.

When the DOT representative was asked what kind of info was stored on the chip, he responded by saying well, things like your name, address, age, birthplace. I thought, you lying sack of . All that info is already written on the inside of the cover of the passport. He mentioned that the chip couldn’t be altered without the government knowing about it. He turns right around and says that he doesn't believe that this is in anyway an invasion of someone's privacy. He also committed on this is mainly designed for travelers coming and going to Canada or Mexico. He said it could be only tracked at border crossings. BS! If my passport is sitting on my desk at home those SOB's can track that and that's a fact.

Water meters were all changed and outfitted with transponders about five years ago. This allows the city to discontinue in house meter readings and resident meter reporting. The City department vehicle drives down the street and an onboard laptop reads the transponders from every house. I have seen the car in action and have observed it process a street of 32 houses in about one minute. Unfortunately I did not know about the dangers of RFID or know about any of the police state stuff so we allowed the tech into the house to replace the meter.

The transponder is about the size of the EZ-Pass transponder and the FAST Lane for New York and Massachusetts, respectively. The car is about 60-70 feet away from the transponder and it picks up the signal. This is obviously a great concern for passport as well. The RFID has a great range.

Pretty soon all "citizens" will be required to have an internal Passport and carry their papers with them at all times. Fixed antenna arrays will capture the signal as you or I walk by them, tracking us much like our post-2001 cell phones already do.

First, odd that they'd go to some Dept of Transport mouthpiece for an explanation. Passports are still done under the Bureau of Consular Affairs in the Dept of STATE.

Second, considering that it's pretty much the same info as is printed on the passport, this chip can be used as an anticounterfeiting measure, since passports have been stolen (and their proper bearer's murdered) not only to patch another photo in for some criminal or terrorist, but also sometimes with changes in the printed information to comport with the age, height, etc. of the criminal user.

Eventually, however, these chips might be used like those toll bridge EZ passes, where the passport is just waved over a sensor and is cleared instantly without any time spent opening and reading the pages.

Please address the ability to clone RFID and you will see it is meant to increase "identity theft" not provide so-called "security". Hacking groups have already come out and said they have cloned passports and have lifted information off unsuspecting holders.

Now they don’t even have to ask for your papers, you are automatically
Scan.

Very disturbing, indeed. Land of the free ? I don't know much about RFID, but sounds like "1984" might have been better titled "2007"

It sounds to me like the objections are to misuse of what sounds to me like a good use of technology. Do I misunderstand?

Rick,

MY objection is exactly that... misuse. Historically government has abused it's power and infringed on our rights with technology advances.

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Originally Posted by KMSRyana

Rick,

MY objection is exactly that... misuse. Historically government has abused it's power and infringed on our rights with technology advances.

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I'm curious about that statement. Can you give some examples of it?

Absolutely. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not against our government. I think this is the best place on earth and I have travelled abroad. I don't think the problem is our government, it's individuals within our government that abuse what power we give them.

The biggest recent abuse (yes, with technology) is the altering of electronic voting machines. HBO aired a documentary that was very interesting called "Hacking Democracy" and it's worth a watch. There are many books on proven vote machine alterations as well, the most notable being "Votescam, The Stealing of America" written by James and Kenneth Collier.

After 9/11 president Bush issued orders to monitor your email and cell calls (mine too). The ACLU fought this in ACLU v NSA and won. Judge Anna Diggs Taylor ruled against the NSA and didn't have particularly nice things to say about how many of our civil rights were being violated by their monitoring.

If you wonder if "Big Brother" is for real, research eminent domain and what rights you truly have when a WalMart, Target, or IKEA wants to move in...

Again, I love where I live. I just think that somewhere along the line someone will decide to misuse this technology. It's a tough issue because they've done a pretty damn good job so far with not having a recurrence of an attack on our native soil. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's a beautiful world we live in.

Wired magazine has a bit about how to disable the RFID chip - hint: it involves the careless use of a hammer.

Edit to add: found the article here.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Wired magazine has a bit about how to disable the RFID chip - hint: it involves the careless use of a hammer.

Edit to add: found the article here.

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LOL! "Careless" :D

I was expecting the warrantless wire tapping by the NSA. I agree that was one of Bush's more blatant abuses. Where I disagree is that it infringed "our rights with technology advances". The same thing about the voting machines (and I did see parts of that HBO documentary).

My point here is that wire tapping and survellance has been going on for as long as there have been governments. I don't feel there is anymore infringment with technology. Its made it easier, but there have been wire taps as long as there have been wires going back to telegraphs. There have been voting irregularities as long as there has been voting.

Better examples might be use of EZ-Pass records to track people's movements, but as long as a legal warrant is used to get that info I don't have a problem with it.

Lets look at the RFID chip in a passport. I don't see a problem with it as long as I can use a reader to verify the info stored about me.

It's the ease with which it's done now that infringed "our rights with technology advances" that bothers me. Should someone call me on my cell phone and they monitor (via satellite on my post 2001 cell phone) it violates the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act passed by Congress in the wake of the Watergate scandal. How easy it is compared to before is scary to me. I agree 100% that surveilance and voting irregularties have been going on far beyond modern times.

And forget governmental abuses for a minute. Your name, address, and birthdate (and cross your fingers they don't put your Social on it) can be picked up so easily. Currently many cars are stolen where the thief waits in his vehicle in a parking lot. When a victim gets in or out of their car the thief can capture the frequency transmitted from the remote to the vehicle, later simply sending it back to the car and opening it with no damage. Identity Theft is already out of control and poorly enforced by Law Enforcement in my opinion. Now imagine what it's going to be like when they can pick up someone's vitals by being within a few feet... scary, if you ask me.

BTW, Scott... I have read several stupid arguments here. I don't veiw this as an argument, just a discussion/debate from many sides and I do see this as a good discussion and value your opinion. :)

According to the government the only info on the chip is exactly the same data on the passport, it is done to prevent faking or changing an existing passport, you can't change a name, birthdate or any material on the passport. When they run it on the machine, if the info does not match the written info, it will be considered a fake or fraud.

And if the chip is not working it will be considered an invalid passport from my understanding.

It is done to stop the use of fake or altered passports.

No arguments, just discussions. Frankly, I think Identity theft,while a very real problem is not as out of control as we have been led to believe. I also feel the dangers of things like those RFID tags may also be overblown. But then I'm an optimist.

Scott is is all those conspiracy They are going to use those secret government space probes to tell all of our movements with those chips.

Next those chips ( told by the same people able) know those chips will contain all our info from blood type, to children's names and even know up to date bank account info, and someone just driving past you in a van with the right equipment will get all that info on their secret listening device in the van.

But I am sure that tin foil on their heads will protect them from all of those rays.

Why does our government need this information? They have our Birth Certificate, our social security number, the track all your transaction from the banks; they know who you are by the photo ID on your Driver License.

I don't like the idea that the government knows more about me than I do. They should be more accountable to the people who has put their trust in them and have failed to deliver.

Our government in my opinion has lost track of what our forefathers had in mind for our country. Our individual rights which every day are being taken away by the government.

Quote:

When, in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, having its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

The Federal Government in my opinion does not represent the people anymore. Who have absolute power over the government; they have made the people afraid of them.

If the Rfid chip only contain Vidal information like height, weight, birthday, age, Ok. But how will we know what is imprinted on that chip? Can we scan it to see the information, must likely not. It is under the control of who know who, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, secret information for them only.

We need to ask them to see this information before it in imprinted on the chip so that you can agree it is correct. The government should be accountable for their actions to the people.


God Bless America. It's people and freedom.
That's my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

And if the chip is not working it will be considered an invalid passport from my understanding.

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Nope, read the Wired article.

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Originally Posted by mr.yet

Why does our government need this information? They have our Birth Certificate, our social security number, the track all your transaction from the banks; they know who you are by the photo ID on your Driver License.

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I think you are missing some points here. You're right the government already has this information. But you are asking the wrong question. Its why does the government need the info, its how easily can they verify it. The point of including a RFID chip inside a passport is so that the agent reviewing the passport can make sure that the printed and encoded info match. It means the agent doesn't have to spend time typing in the info (as is done now). This means that lines move more quickly without sacrificing security.

I don't see this as a further invasion of privacy, but as a way making our lives easier. I think our privacy has been thouroughly invaded already.

My concern is How do we know what is imprinted on the chip, yes it would speed up the process going though the line.

I want to know what information they are obtaining, not just what they are telling you is on there.

NO, I don't trust the government, never have and never will.

Scott,

The issue about the RFID chips has to do with hacking and the possible increased proliferation of the readers. Originally if I wanted to steal your passport info I needed to physically get your passport from you. Now all I need is a reader near where passports of waiting to be shown. That example is more far-fetched than this one: manufacturers are testing installing RFIDs directly into their products versus the packaging. (example 1 and another source and example 2). They can decide where to put readers to capture the info the RFIDS have and track you. Or hackers will eventually create their own readers and sell to the highest bidder - you can be broadcasting your personal info at all times not knowing who is listening and saving the data.

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Originally Posted by mr.yet

My concern is How do we know what is imprinted on the chip, yes it would speed up the process going though the line.

I want to know what information they are obtaining, not just what they are telling you is on there.

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As I said earlier you can use a reader. But if you are going to be that paranoid that you will assume that info that only the government can read is being encoded, nothing will convince you otherwise.

I'm not saying that you should trust the government implicitly. But the issue is more that of something beyond your control. If the government is going to encode the chips with info that will only show up on their readers, then there is nothing you can do about it, but buy an island and move there.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

As I said earlier you can use a reader.

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I don't believe the readers will be available to the general public. Haven't seen any mention of that of the IT news about RFID.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I don't believe the readers will be available to the general public. Haven't seen any mention of that of the IT news about RFID.

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So when given the passport have it read or taken to a passport office to have it read.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Nope, read the Wired article.

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I am just going by what some of the border patrol friends of mine have told me, that if it is not confirming the info, they will make you a person of interest and they will have to pull you out of line and check your information more closely.

The chip is merely a security tool, not a government plot, it is something to try and make our borders more secure.

Like any other electronic device RFID can fail. It would be sad that you would be put in a database as a 'risk' simply because your chip failed in an otherwise very valid passport. I never mentioned anything about a "government plot", my issue is of personal privacy.

Not in the data base, after you were checked out and cleared, you would be allowed to enter but you would be told to get a replacement.

What the procedure is, they scan the card, then look at the card physcially, if the info on the screen from the scan does not match the written matterial, the validity of the card will be in doubt.

Same thing if they read the card and it does not read, they will have doubt of its validity and you will have to be checked to see if you perhaps stole someone's passport and alterred it and disabled the chip trying to get pass.

The problem is currently those from the US have been able to use drivers license, state isssued ID, and even birth certificates, there are I believe 8000 to 9000 enities from the news report that issues birth certificates and acceptable ID, no way at all to tell good and fake ones.

So while in the change, we all have ID information on our ATM cards, our credit cards, those little strips that are swiped, they store all types of info on you This is just an improvement with tech advance.

People thought Drivers license and social security cards were the end of the world

Then credit cards then computers, people are basically scared of new advances they often don't fully understand

The strips on our cards are passive devices, they require a card reader to pull the info off the cards. The RFIDS are always emitting their information to whatever receiver is set to decrypt the information. As we have seen from a multitude of DRM schemes, the encryption has always been defeated by the hackers.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The RFIDS are always emitting their information to whatever receiver is set to decrypt the information.......

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Hello:

Nahhh, the government wouldn't set up receivers anywhere to track you. They COULD, really easily and cheaply and you'd never know it. But they won't, because they're good people. I trust 'em. Don't you?

And, if I didn't trust 'em, I'll take my passport to a customs office and ask that government guy to tell me what my RFID say's. THEN, I'll trust 'em, because he wouldn't lie, would he?

I love my country too. But, I DON'T trust the government. The two are NOT the same.

excon

PS> As a matter of fact, NOT trusting the government, is a VERY patriotic undertaking - VERY!

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:


excon

PS> As a matter of fact, NOT trusting the government, is a VERY patriotic undertaking - VERY!

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I agree, don't trust the government!:)

In the UK, they call this idea the ID card and it does exactly the same thing too. In fact, I think the proposal is to make sure that all the citizens of the EU has one. I do agree with those who say identity theft will be on the rise because lets face it, if the government can hack into the system so can the people. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to monitor our lives, aren't they playing God enough already?

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Originally Posted by tamed

What I don't understand is why they feel the need to monitor our lives

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9/11/2001

Do people want to go to a system where any fake ID can get you across a nations border,

You can take a name at random, or if you merely introduce yourself to someone and tell them your name... from city and state in the US

If you have any public records out there and almost everyone does for about 50 bucks there are web sites that will give you a lot more data than this new passport ever can.

There are web sites that show when I bought my house and for how much, how much more mortgage is and shows a plot of my house and all my tax info

My car loan has to be public somewhere since I get adds from other lenders that know exactly my payoff on my car and what kind it is

The fact my house mortgage was adjustable intereste ( until I changed it this year) was public since I received over a dozen adds in the mail that knew when it was going to change, how much it was going to change and al that data

It must be a U.S. thing then because I don't get those ads here in Canada, nor does anyone I know. Plus I don't believe that we have those types of 'information brokers' here either (maybe we do and it's part of an underworld I am not familiar with).

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

9/11/2001

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Please understand that this by no means belittles the severity of those attacks nor does it make this day any less significant, but these new security measures will not necessarily change the fact that there will still be terrorists born and raised in either the US or the UK and them having a passport with their details on it will not change what they believe in. It is very easy to say that these new measures are for our own safety but how much is it really?

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Originally Posted by tamed

It is very easy to say that these new measures are for our own safety but how much is it really?

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See what you have is a Catch 22. You asked why they feel the need to monitor. I gave you the answer to that question. Your response is to say that the measures may not stop every potential terrorist. But is that any reason to drop the measures making it easier for more potential terrorists?

Already, several potential plots have been foiled by greater screening and diligence. Will one of them get through someday? I fear they will, but I don't feel that means relaxing our vigilance.

In my opinon 9/11 succeeded mostly because of the climate that existed prior to it. Airline passengers were told to sit tight and not antagonize the hijackers. The lesson of Flight 93 is such that I don't believe the tactic can be used again. Passengers are not going to sit still against a few people armed with box cutters.

9/11 changed the world we live in. Some of those changes are good, others bad. But Pandora's box has been opened. I think its going to be a fine line for govt's to walk to provide security without inhibiting freedoms. The question is where to draw the lines. I personally am willing to give up some freedoms and privacy for greater security. But I also draw the line. For example, I am dead set against warrantless wire taps. The mechanism exist for obtaining such warrants without compromising the investigation so they were not necessary and should be illegal. But would I mind having my bag randomly checked as I board the PATH some morning, no I wouldn't. There is nothing in my bag to get me in any trouble with the law.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Frankly, I think Identity theft,while a very real problem is not as out of control as we have been led to believe.

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I work with people almost every single day who have been victims of Identity theft. I have personally had to sit and entertain criminals trying to obtain fraudulent loans while the police where on the way, on several occasions. It's real. Very, very real. On that end I am concerned with the nature of the RFID device and how it works, because it isn't passive, it's 24/7 transmitting. It just makes it easier. The Padre makes some very valid points with how easy it is to obtain information about others as it is now. This will just make it easier, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

See what you have is a Catch 22.

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100% agree. That whole post was thorough, well thought out, and well said. I still don't like the device. The idea itself is a good one, but there has to be a more secure way of doing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by KMSRyana

I work with people almost every single day who have been victims of Identity theft. It's real. Very, very real.

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Oh its very real. I have a shredder and every mail I get that has the remotest possibility of being used against me gets shredded. But I have been using cyberspace since the 80s before there was a WWW. I've been using computer banking for almost as long as there has been computer banking. I have too many credit cards and have shopped by Internet and phone. I've never come close to having my Identity stolen. It's a very real problem but I just don't think its as widespread as has been made out. I also think that much of the time where there is an Identity theft its due to carelessness on the part of the victim. Like falling for a phishing scam.

Thanks for the compliment about my Catch 22 note.

You see, that right there is what I mean. There are already "measures" in place that reduce/ foil potential plots. You have air marshals, stricter measures on hand luggage, finger printing and eye scanning at airports (and the list goes on), intelligence offices being at higher alert, these are acceptable measures but the only thing me carrying all my details around with me is going to help is proving that I am not an illegal immigrant. Those who carried out the attacks in London however, were born and bred there so theoretically speaking this new passport idea would not have change anything because they would still have all their details in check. Or have you forgotten that most of these people do not tend toi have criminal records?

The bottom line is that I don't think this passport issue increases our vigilance by one iota.
You are correct in saying that our attitudes have change with regards to hijacking and that the tactic may not be used again. 9/11 was a world defining event and indeed Pandora's box has been opened but the government have not treaded the fine line carefully and have thus crossed it. It is their duty to protect us and it is also their duty to make sure that protection doesn't take away from our liberty otherwise what would be the point of all the wars if we are to have our liberty taking away by those who have sworn to protect it?

Just because we have nothing to hide does not give the anyone the right to invade our privacy. You say that you are against unwarranted wire tapping but how is that different from them knowing your every movement? To borrow from your Pandora's box analogy, once your movements have been tracked, why not your phone calls?
We have worked hard for this freedom we uphold, countless of people have died because of it, wouldn't freely giving it up spit in their faces?

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Originally Posted by tamed

To borrow from your Pandora's box analogy, once your movements have been tracked, why not your phone calls?
We have worked hard for this freedom we uphold, countless of people have died because of it, wouldn't freely giving it up spit in their faces?

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That's not the Pandora's box analogy, that's the give them an inch they will take a mile adage. The answer to that is you have to have guardians like the ACLU for example (yes I know they tend to go too far, lets not get into that) to safeguard the freedoms.

But this goes with what I was saying. I really don't care if the govt knows where I go. I'm not bothered that they can use my EZ-Pass to know when I've crossed the Hudson. I don't care if they know I went to Fort Lauderdale several years ago (I actually stayed in the same motel a couple of the 9/11 hijackers stayed in though at different times). None of those things bother me.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

But this goes with what I was saying. I really don't care if the govt knows where I go. I'm not bothered that they can use my EZ-Pass to know when I've crossed the Hudson. I don't care if they know I went to Fort Lauderdale several years ago (I actually stayed in the same motel a couple of the 9/11 hijackers stayed in though at different times). None of those things bother me.

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I guess that's one of the many differences that makes us all individuals. Even if I don't have anything to hide, I would still like my privacy.

Tough issue. Let's just not vote on it, the government will just alter the results.:rolleyes: