Hello:

In protest of what it calls a religion "of the devil," a nondenominational church in Gainesville, Florida, plans to host an "International Burn a Quran Day" on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks.

The Dove World Outreach Center says it is hosting the event to remember 9/11 victims and take a stand against Islam. With promotions on its website and Facebook page, it invites Christians to burn the Muslim holy book at the church from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m.

"We believe that Islam is of the devil, that it's causing billions of people to go to hell, it is a deceptive religion, it is a violent religion and that is proven many, many times," Pastor Terry Jones said.

Certainly, this stuff acts as a recruitment tool for Al Quaida, and endangers our troops fighting alongside our Muslim allies. YOU, of course, said that it was a "myth". Apparently, General Patraus doesn't think so. He would know, wouldn't he?

But, what I REALLY want to know, though, is HOW you could possibly think that the stuff going on over here, like burn the Koran Day, DOESN'T effect how the Muslim world views us??

excon

PS> This is a volatile issue. If you get personal, I'll close the damn thing myself.

I believe you will find no one here that endorses this .

But what happened to the argument presented before that it's a rights issue and not one of perception and 'sensitivity' ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

But what happened to the argument presented before that it's a rights issue and not one of perception and 'sensitivity' ?

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Hello again, tom:

Nothing has changed. It's still a rights issue. I'd NEVER stop their book burning. The WONDERMENT has just switched sides... You wondered whether it was a good idea to offend the 9/11 family's. Me, and General Petraus, wonder if it's a good idea to offend the entire Muslim world.

excon

I'm unclear about your position. You are saying it's a bad idea to offend the entire Muslim world but it's OK to offend the 9-11 families and the 70% of New Yorkers who oppose the mosque placement . Why are the sensitivities of the Muslim world a greater concern ?

Me... I'm consistent . In both cases I say there is a right to do it;and in both cases I oppose it and would take every legal means necessary to prevent it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I'm unclear about your position. You are saying it's a bad idea to offend the entire Muslim world but it's ok to offend the 9-11 families and the 70% of New Yorkers who oppose the mosque placement . Why are the sensitivities of the Muslim world a greater concern ?

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Hello tom:

(1) Because we are trying to win the hearts and minds of the Afghans, Iraqis, and others, so our boys can come home. (2) Because we want to prevent Al Quaida from getting BIGGER and STRONGER. If this stuff DOES what General Petraus and I say it does, then (3) we should STOP shooting ourselves in the foot. (4) Because, even our Muslim allies carry guns in very proximity to our own soldiers. (5) Because we are not at war with the 9/11 families and (6) the mosque did NOT attack their religion. (7) Because we want to prevent any more home grown terrorists.

You may see a tit for tat, but it ain't. It's not even close.

excon

Only in America do people have a right to their dumb, misguided, prejudiced ideas.

Greatly surprised that people make building a community center two blocks away and 9 years later, issue about Islam, and not get the survivors the grief counseling they really need back then. Election year BS to me, but the burning of the Qur'an is just prejudiced, in my opinion, and hate based, and ignorant.

The worst of the American way, you can blame your feelings on anything whether its right, or wrong. Doesn't seem to make a difference. I got one word for it all MISGUIDED FEAR! (okay TWO words).

I don't see it as tit for tat at all. I think both are wrong. Jihadistan has been at war against us for some time now . Evidently winning hearts and minds is a one way street . I have seen images of the American flag burning by mobs in the ummah for as long as I can remember.

This clown in Fla should be stopped and so should the placement of the mosque . Not because of constitutional rights, but because it's the right thing to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I believe you will find no one here that endorses this .

But what happened to the argument presented before that it's a rights issue and not one of perception and 'sensitivity' ?

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Bingo!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Evidently winning hearts and minds is a one way street .

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Hello again, tom:

YES, it IS a one way street. This is the United States of America. We are EXCEPTIONAL. We don't REACT to the world. We LEAD the world.

You ARE consistent, though. Since we've been discussing this stuff, you have maintained that we didn't have to DO the right thing, because THEY don't. When we discussed torture, you told me how UNCIVILIZED they are towards us. When we discussed trials for them, you told me about how Daniel Pearl was beheaded without a trial.

Now, when our task IS to win the hearts and minds of the Muslim world, you tell me about how they burn our flag. Smoothy thinks there should be NO mosques here until there's a Christian church in Saudi Arabia. In a nutshell, you guys want us to act like them. You have since the beginning.

Well, we're NOT them. I've argued consistently, that we should ACT like Americans, not like our enemy's. This discussion is more of the same.

The question I proposed in my OP remains unanswered. Do you believe that the stuff we're doing, ala the mosque, and the book burning, pisses off the Muslims? Or do you just not care if it does? I'll bet it's the latter, and you don't want to admit it.

excon

Quote:

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But, what I REALLY want to know, though, is HOW you could possibly think that the stuff going on over here, like burn the Koran Day, DOESN'T effect how the Muslim world views us??

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Apparently they're rioting in the streets over this according to what I heard on the radio just now. So if that's true, and judging by your position on this it probably is, wouldn't that throw a kink into the image of Islam as a peaceful, tolerant religion?

By the way, I also object to this stupid plan of the oxymoronic, or just plain moronic, Dove World Outreach Center. But it's a free country, right?

It cracks me up . Snoozeweek plants false stories about us flushing Korans down the toilet and the Ummah goes nuts. They went nuts when a cartoonist drew unflattering cartoons of Mohammed .
We should just ignore indignities against us because we are better people ? I don't get it .

There is still an inconsistency here. In once case (so long as our ox is being gored ) it is an absolute right... apparently because we are better people. But in the other case we must walk on egg shells lest we offend.

I oppose the burning of the Koran exactly because it is unAmerican.That is the exceptionalism you speak of .
I couldn't care less about their reaction .

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So if that's true, and judging by your position on this it probably is, wouldn't that throw a kink into the image of Islam as a peaceful, tolerant religion?

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Hello Steve:

You've got me mixed up somebody else. I don't think Islam is a peaceful tolerant religion. I don't think ANY religion is. Which gives me pause... Tom doesn't want to cut 'em any slack because they burn our FLAG. I wonder how pissed off he (and you) would be if they burned bibles??

Your man, George W. Bush correctly said that we are NOT at war with Islam. We'd LIKE the Muslim world to believe it. But, I'm not even sure it's true. If I'M not sure, don't you think a few Muslims might not be either?

excon

The US military burned Bibles in Afghanistan. That must've been a hearts and minds thing too.
Military burns unsolicited Bibles sent to Afghanistan - CNN.com

Exactly right, tom. I'd even go further and say that the left not only expects us to walk on eggshells lest we offend, conservatives should welcome the insults and labels thrown our way.

When called a racist, I should respond, "thank you sir! May I have another?" When called "teabagger" I should respond, "thank you sir! May I have another?" Etc, etc.

This is one of three discussions on this I've come across today, and none mentioned this part:

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The warnings followed an angry protest on Monday by several hundred people in the Afghan capital, Kabul, who chanted "Death to America" as they denounced the planned burning event by the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center church.

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Perhaps I just answered my own question, I think the left just may agree with the "death to America" sentiment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

There is still an inconsistency here.

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Hello again, tom:

There is no inconsistency here. People don't have a right NOT to be offended. When SOME people utilize their Constitutional rights, it offends SOME people. When others utilize THEIR Constitutional rights, a different group is offended. Nobody is saying these people DON'T have rights.

However, if it was ME (and it IS), I'd worry LESS about offending the 9/11 family's than I would about offending a BILLION and a HALF Muslims...

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Steve:

You've got me mixed up somebody else. I don't think Islam is a peaceful tolerant religion. I don't think ANY religion is. Which gives me pause....... Tom doesn't want to cut 'em any slack because they burn our FLAG. I wonder how pissed off he (and you) would be if they burned bibles???

Your man, George W. Bush correctly said that we are NOT at war with Islam. We'd LIKE the Muslim world to believe it. But, I'm not even sure it's true. If I'M not sure, don't you think a few Muslims might not be either?

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I'm not mixing anything up, you thought it was going to cause problems and it did. Your position and the report I heard are in agreement.

I'll tell you what's mixed up though. It's that Christians and conservatives have been very vocal and very consistent about condemning the idiots and radicals among us like this church. We've been very consistent in condemning racism and hatred. The left has been very consistent in not only ignoring that fact but continuing to fuel the fire in labeling us as just the opposite.

As long as the left continues their intentional war on conservatives by portraying us ignorant, intolerant "racists" who are "at war with Islam" then yeah, I can see how Muslims would question whether we are at war with Islam. Me saying I'm not isn't enough, because no matter how many times I say it, someone keeps telling them otherwise and that pi$$es me off.

I wonder how many people that Supported Burning the American Flag as an expression of freadom of speech or actually DID burn a flag themselves are now trying to agrue burning a book ( and the Koran is nothing but a book ) is NOT a protected form of freedom of speech?

Not that I run around burning book, or flags... but I believe it is the right of every American to burn a Koran if they so wish as long as they aren't setting anything else on fire in the process.

Heaven knows the loons in the middle east with their panties in a knot thought it was mighty funny to be burning American flags if they weren't burning the actual Corpses of American soldiers.

Compare that with burning a book? Sorry... book does not equal human bodies. Book does not equal national flag.

And claiming it will recruit other Islamic idiots is a lame excuse... The radical Muslim Imams who can't get pretty women themselves do that if a koran gets burned or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

YES, it IS a one way street. This is the United States of America. We are EXCEPTIONAL. We don't REACT to the world. We LEAD the world.

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Where did you read that, Ex? Even your man Barack Griswold Obama doesn't believe in American exceptionalism, remember?

What do we lead the world in anymore? Lawyers? Psychobabble? Eco-freaks? Stupefying our children? When you and I were kids America out-produced, outfought, and out-thought the rest of the planet combined. Why did you soft-headed wrong-hearted Liberals fritter it away anyway?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

What do we lead the world in anymore? Why did you soft-headed wrong-hearted Liberals fritter it away anyway?

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Hello again, Cats:

I was speaking specifically about human rights... You're correct, though. We frittered our leadership position away when we became torturers.. But, it wasn't liberals who did that. Nope. It surely wasn't.

excon

I hate to see any book burnt, I own a koran, and have read and studied it ( some) , I even hate to burn old worn out books, and even those that were flood damaged, ( but know some have to be)

I think this first is silly that this made any national attention and I blame the media for making this anything but a joke. Guys this is a church of what 20 to 40 people maybe ?

There is a black church in Atlanta of 100's calling white people the Devil and Satan, and they don't even get a mention.
The church where Obama belonged, talks bad about the US. no one cares, it does not make the news.

The "concerned black clergy" of Atlanta, make fools of themselves over arrested people, and political issues they know little about, and it never makes the news.

A little church with less people than I even preach too, wants to burn a book, and it makes national news.

Heck I would go burn a copy of Beethovens complete works, If I could get national attention, I may fill my pews with music haters perhaps.

The news camera need to go away, and no one show up but his few followers.

Now with that said, I will also say he has the legal right to express his views, and that includes him burning the book. It is a really pointless action, since his preaching his message of hate is really the same message.

You mean like the stellar treatment our prisoners got before they were lit on fire, and strung from bridges. Or those that had a slower death trapped on the upper levels of the twin towers knowing they were going to die.

Sorry, but NOTHING that was done to ANY prisoner by us rises to that level. And incidentally... I don't think any of it was torture... nor do I shed a single tear for any of them.

Under the international articles of war... every one of them could legitimately be exicuted as spies as they were NOT wearing a uniform, but dressed in civilian garb to evade detection.

And how anyone... can equate burning a work of fiction, and the Quran IS a work of fiction, praising a pedophile and murderer (mohamed the pig rapist) with anything is beyond comprehension.

Its just a freaking book.

But then... put an American flag over it and the lefties would be in a real big hurry to burn it. If it was related to the Bible and they would be screaming to ban it, but the Quaran and the left jumps up to defend the indefensible.

To the Muslims with their panties in a knot... get a life... respect is earned, and its time they started to earn it. They have done a dismal job so far. In fact its been 1,300 years with no real attempt yet except for maybe a handful of individuals.

Blaming danger to our troops on a freaking book being burned is stupid. Go back to the NUMEROUS terrorist activities by the Islamic Pig brigade since Ronald Regan was in office will show that a book getting burned 30 year AFTER this started has not one thing to do with anything, except them demanding special treatment no other religion gets... and the Left is willing to put Islam on a pedistle while deriding every other religion at the same time.

I'm sorry, I am not Muslim... I will never be muslim, and in fact if Muslims try to impose their freaking religion or Sharia on me I will be one of millions that will take up arms against them to prevent it.

Burn, baby, Burn!

Exie, NBC news just translated the concerns of one of the Afghan protesters. He said, "we call on America to stop desecrating our holy Koran."

Where did he get the idea, from one tiny insignificant 'church', that America is desecrating his holy Koran? I'm not desecrating his Koran, you're not desecrating his Koran, tom isn't desecrating his Koran, America has no policy of desecrating the Koran and I'm sure the vast majority of Americans - including conservatives, Christians, Republicans, etc. - don't endorse this church's plan.

So how did all of America become indicted for desecrating his Koran? I say it's the same way we allegedly indict "all of Islam," you guys make this stuff up. I've never done one thing to give that indication to anyone for either, but I'm apparently guilty of both injustices because you say so. I submit that IF our troops face any problems for this then YOU are to blame for propagating the myth instead of standing up for the truth of the matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Exie, NBC news just translated the concerns of one of the Afghan protesters. He said, "we call on America to stop desecrating our holy Koran."

Where did he get the idea, from one tiny insignificant 'church', that America is desecrating his holy Koran? I'm not desecrating his Koran, you're not desecrating his Koran, tom isn't desecrating his Koran, America has no policy of desecrating the Koran and I'm sure the vast majority of Americans - including conservatives, Christians, Republicans, etc. - don't endorse this church's plan.

So how did all of America become indicted for desecrating his Koran? I say it's the same way we allegedly indict "all of Islam," you guys make this stuff up. I've never done one thing to give that indication to anyone for either, but I'm apparently guilty of both injustices because you say so. I submit that IF our troops face any problems for this then YOU are to blame for propagating the myth instead of standing up for the truth of the matter.

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There you have it, one lone voice, and panic. You cannot convince Muslims that what one group do isn't representative of your country, after all, their mentality is one in all in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So how did all of America become indicted for desecrating his Koran? I say it's the same way we allegedly indict "all of Islam,"

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Hello again, Steve:

The Arab world, as a whole, has NO concept of our First Amendment. When they see coverage of a Koran burning church, they think we ALL believe that. After all, their government can stop stuff like that. They assume ours can too.

I agree with you, though. When we see a small group of radical Muslims burning a flag and shouting death to America, we think they ALL believe that.

excon

I am just wondering why the activities of an insignificant kook minister with a congregation of 50 is garnering international attention .
I think there is incitement here all right .Incitement that is being stoked by the press.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

The Arab world, as a whole, has NO concept of our First Amendment. When they see coverage of a Koran burning church, they think we ALL believe that. After all, their government can stop stuff like that. They assume ours can too.

I agree with you, though. When we see a small group of radical Muslims burning a flag and shouting death to America, we think they ALL believe that.

excon

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Actually you have this wrong. Their government can't stop it from happening. But in their country the penalty would be death. That is where the break occurs. In this country they won't be put to death. They might with the threats that are coming their way. Maybe it might make the radicals mad enough they will ban together and put on a uniform and start fighting.

I think not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

The Arab world, as a whole, has NO concept of our First Amendment. When they see coverage of a Koran burning church, they think we ALL believe that. After all, their government can stop stuff like that. They assume ours can too.

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Then stop giving them the coverage.

Quote:

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I agree with you, though. When we see a small group of radical Muslims burning a flag and shouting death to America, we think they ALL believe that.

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What is this "we?" You just validated my point, I'm not the one saying they all believe that, you are. I was kind enough to tell the world that you aren't desecrating the Koran, but you failed to acknowledge that I and the rest of America aren't desecrating it either. The compliant media is aiding and abetting you in spreading the myth and stoking the fire. Any blood that comes of this is on your hands, not mine.

Edited see below.

Funny how when it's the Mafia that says to a business owner... we can't guarantee the safety of your shop unless you do what we say and buy insurance... its extortion and threats. And a violation if RICO laws

When its Muslims that say, do as we tell you by A: not exercising your constitutional right to burn a book, or B: let us build our Mohammet Attah memorial mosque 2 blocks from ground zero ----- or we can't guarantee you the safety of Americans anywhere. To the left that isn't extortion or threats, but something they are entitled to because they are a special. Islam makes the Mafia look like two bit hoods when it comes to threats, intimdation, murder and a multitude of crimes against humanity.

Hello again,

Daniel Pipes, a right wing Islamist hater of the first order, has this to say:

"The energetic push-back of recent months finds me partially elated: Those who reject Islamism and all its works now constitute a majority and are on the march. For the first time in fifteen years, I feel I may be on the winning team.

But I have one concern: the team's increasing anti-Islamic tone. Misled by the Islamists' insistence that there can be no such thing as “moderate Islam,” my allies often fail to distinguish between Islam (a faith) and Islamism (a radical utopian ideology aiming to implement Islamic laws in their totality). This amounts to not just an intellectual error but a policy dead end. Targeting all Muslims is contrary to basic Western notions, lumps friends with foes, and ignores the inescapable fact that Muslims alone can offer an antidote to Islamism."

I may be dreaming it up, but PIPES??

excon

Islam has as much to do with terrorists, and extremist, as the KKK had to do with Christianity.

Spreading hate, lies, and ignorance and fear is against Islam, and Christianity, and is accepted by both (as well as other religions) as the works of the devil, the lesser god. Men have a choice in their actions, and only can hold themselves responsible for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Islam has as much to do with terrorists, and extremist, as the KKK had to do with Christianity.

Spreading hate, lies, and ignorance and fear is against Islam, and Christianity, and is accepted by both (as well as other religions) as the works of the devil, the lesser god. Men have a choice in their actions, and only can hold themselves responsible for it.

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Poor comparison... there are far more Islamic radicals than there ever were KKK members.

Page 4 of the following document gives numbers...

http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/253.pdf

Factor in the NUMBER of Muslims then these percentages show to be at a minimum hundreds of millions in support of terrorism since they claim 1.5 billion whoreshipers. And it does vary greatly country by country.

Major Religions Ranked by Size

Even at their Peak the KKK had HOW many members? And no wikipedia numbers.

Islam isn't simply a religion... its a mistake to think it is. Its an all encompassing method of subjugation of the population. The religion itself is not the worst part of Islam.

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my allies often fail to distinguish between Islam (a faith) and Islamism (a radical utopian ideology aiming to implement Islamic laws in their totality).

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I on the other hand have made that distinction clear for almost a decade. That is why I call the enemy 'jihadistan' to separate the political from the faith.

The real question that has to be asked is how many Muslims are adherents to the radical political brand?. and are Mosques in this country being used to recruit jihadists ?
Unfortunately ,much of the recruitment to the jihad occures in the Mosques and madrassas . It is therefore imperitive that we do not allow the houses of worship in this country to be used as places of recruitment . I'm sure you would agree that preventing that does not violate any 1st amendment concerns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The real question that has to be asked is how many Muslims are adherents to the radical political brand ? ...and are Mosques in this country being used to recruit jihadists ?

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Hello again, tom:

It's a good question. I too, have one. Which came first - mosque's that recruit, or assaults upon ones religion which RESULTS in mosque's that recruit?

Given the long list of nasty things we did to them, beginning with our invasion of a country that DIDN'T attack us, Abu Grahib, Gitmo, torture, rendition, secret black prisons, military tribunals, unlimited detention, drone attacks, zillions of civilian casualties, anger at building a mosque near ground zero, burning the koran, and a few other lesser items, I'd say it's OUR behavior that's causing Al Quaida recruits...

You seem to think, on the other hand, that recruitment happens in a vacuum, simply because the mosques are there, all the while IGNORING the list of assaults we perpetrated upon them...

excon

I can agree with there being a lot of radicals, that's a given, but I think that judging a people (or a religion) by how some of the leaders (and followers) use their excuse of "GOD" is missing the greater point, that even Christianity, (and most major religions) have the same thing in them, as many religious leaders have used. And continue to use religion as a tool to subjugate, and control their populations in an effort to keep power for their own purposes.

History is full of such examples. And while the KKK didn't have the numbers as you say, they still reeked havoc, and fear on a race of people for many years, and still do. So numbers mean nothing, its words and actions that do.

While I agree we as Americans should not live in fear, and base actions on the way others perceive, spin, or use those actions for whatever purpose, we still have to stick to our own defined boundaries of good behavior when dealing with other nations and people who are different.

To blame Islam for our ills, is as misguided as this idiot burning Qur'ans to make his point. He has a right to do it, and I have a right to call him names for it. And even protest loudly about it.

Ex , Did the Nazi's in Germany have a legitimate grievience ? They thought they did .It was the slight of the treaty ending WWI that was their reason.
However the underlying radical philosophy existed long before Hitler .

I happen to know that jihadist recruitment began long before our involvement in the ME... and in fact it predates our existence as a nation or even a place Europeans know about.
The quest for a world wide Califate through conquest began with Mohammed the warrior .
I may not be greatly schooled in the religion he designed . But I am fairly schooled on the historical Mohammed . Much of the tactics employed today by jihadistan comes from his playbook.

I'm not giving a free pass to the KKK any more than I would to any other group that preachs racism at its core... and every group and race has them. Blacks included.

But when you have the radicals in numbers of tens of millions and hunfreds of millions with little to no obvious effort to stop or disuade them, then you do have to hold the entire group accountible.

After all, were not the KKK, relentlessly pursued and held accountible. Are not all members of the KKK held accountible for the actions of a few?

And you see, while this Preacher does have the right to burn as many Korans as he wants... nobody, has the right to threaten the lives of others because he was allowed to do it.

And that's EXACTLY what Islam does...

Let us build out terrorist memorial near ground zero, or somebodies going to get hurt.

Don't let that preacher exercise his 1st amendment rights or somebodies going to get hurt.

Islam = Thugs.

See the parallel to organised crime? I do.

And 99% of world terrorism.. IS Islamic in Nature...

There is not one Islamic nation on the planet that shows respect to those of another faith... and in many Islamic nations it goes far beyond disrespect.

Try to enter Mecca or Medina as a non-muslim... try to enter Saudi arabia with a box of Bibles, or Iran... whats going to happen? It won't be pretty.

At its core Islam is not about peace... its about conquest and forcing people into submission... and killing those who won't. They KILL Christian missionaries in Muslim countries... frequently.

Islam means submission... which it forces upon anyone in their reach. It's their primary purpose, and one that is never out of their mind.

I feel as this event will give a push to Muslims who are thinking about becoming terrorists. Just like when they drag our soldiers bodies through the streets gives a kid a push to join the military.

They don't need a push... their culture and their Religious leaders rely on hatred to push the blame of the problems their own society has that are of their own creation on others rather than addressing and fixing them.