Why did they do it? Israel said " its soldiers were trying to defend themselves against armed activists." That sounds like a big fat lie.
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Why did they do it? Israel said " its soldiers were trying to defend themselves against armed activists." That sounds like a big fat lie.
Haaretz says there were injured commandos.
Israel Navy commandos: Gaza flotilla activists tried to lynch us - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
Twist the question, why did the boat load of trouble makers do it,
They knew there was an embargo, they knew that Israel was going to stop their boat, they went and did this to provoke them and make a media scene,
Knowing they were not suppose to take their boat, refusing to turn around when told, other nations would have just blown their boat out of the water.
Hello:
This was a Rachel Corey moment. Civilians should stay out of war zones. It's dangerous there.
excon
:(
It doesn't seem right that Israel can or should block aid from the Gaza Strip and the 1.5 million Palestinians who live there.
I feel like the people on the aid flotilla had a right to defend themselves. Sure, I don't know the whole story, but Israel seems in the wrong, to me.
Hello this:
My ship was involved in the blockade of Cuba. If someone tried to break the blockade, we would have blasted them out of the water. I'm sure the Cubans needed stuff. They STILL do.
This isn't about right or wrong. If you lived in Sderot where the Gazan rockets indiscriminately land, you'd think the Palestinians were wrong. This is about putting your life on the line for a cause you believe in.. These people did. Like Rachael Corey, some of them lost.
excon
I'm with Excon on this one . Who's to say that the ship wasn 't loaded with rockets ?
You can trust me ,a multitude of aid gets to Gaza ;mostly travelling through Israel . I have yet to see a photo of a starving Palestinian.
Perspective helps, thanks.
The Turks say the ship wasn't loaded with rockets, in any case, if the Israeli's find arms no doubt we will know about it. I'm not condoning Israel intercepting a ship in international waters but if it was blockade running, what did they expect? They expected to be intercepted, so the whole thing was a publicity stunt, they even had reporters embedded with them. Sometimes I wonder are these Palestinians and their supporters stupid or children,Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The question, Tom, wasn't whether the Palestinians were starving but whether they had adequate medical supplies
They are full of it. You are correct this was pure agitprop. No coincidence that the UNSC has Lebanon as the rotating head at this time and they managed to fit in an emergency session in yesterday before the transfer .
There are more facts emerging that make it clear that the Israeli's ,instead of the accused deployment of disproportionate and excessive force ,showed restraint in the face of an attack against their commandos (armed with paintball guns and side arms only) by trained Palestinians on board wielding knives and Iron bars. They only opened fire with their sidearms after a few of their commandos were seriously hurt ;had their sidearms taken ;and were taking fire by the Palestinians .And this occurred on only one of the ships of the flotilla.
The facts are that the Israelis were more than willing to divert the cargo ships to the port of Ashdod where they would inspect the cargo and then transport the goods free of charge into Gaza . That is where the bulk of the aid people claim the Gazans are not getting is processed.
One has to remember that Gaza is now under the complete control of Hamas ;an internationally recognized terrorist group. Excon is correct that since they assumed control ,thousands of rockets have been fired into Israeli towns in the immediate vicinity . Rockets with longer range are beginning to infiltrate ;rockets that threaten Ben Gurion Airport and the nuclear facility at Negev.
Smuggling them in occures through 2 routes. Th first is a series of tunnels into Gaza from Egyptian Sinai. The 2nd is from ships that go as far as the shallow waters off the Gaza coast allows. Then smaller vessels (often fishing ships ) rendezvous with the supply ships and off load their illicit cargo. There is no blockade of legitimate cargo ; only weapons.
As usual when it comes to Israel, facts don't matter. The media is portraying this today as a "botched commando raid" by the ruthless IDF. Yesterday it was "Israelis kill 10 peace activists."
Here's your "peace" activists:
Hello again, this:
You decry what Israel did. Most of the world does too. But, most of the world is fickle. Because, while they hate what Israel did, they think we did a bang up job by killing Mustafa Abu al-Yazid, the #3 Al Quaida guy, with a Predator missile attack in Pakistan.
Why is one of them good, and the other bad? It's the same people fighting the same enemy. Is it OK with you that the United States occupies Pakistan, and mistakenly kills a few civilians now and then? What are we going to do to them if they send another bomber over here, and his bomb works?? If that happens, what Israel did on those boats ain't going to be NOTHING compared to what we're going to do to Pakistan.
What do you think about that?
excon
I think it all sucks. The video speechlesstx posted is pretty revealing. Peace! Short of that, I suppose it is "kill or be killed".
We nailed the jerk al-Yazid with an intent to use lethal force. It was for all intents an assassination . Good let him rot .
The Israelis had no intention to use lethal force. Their intel screwed up and they did not expect a violent confrontation. I don't know why they made that conclusion but it cost them in navy ops being injured .
The Israeli's constantly go out of their way to limit collateral damage even if it puts their troops at a greater risk. But the world gives them no slack or recognition .
Letting your rhetoric get a little loose with the facts there, EX, the US does not occupy Pakistan and it would not be all right with us if it did, in fact, it has been said before that it is time the US left Afghanistan and there is no reason for them to still have forces in Iraq. It is not all right that they kill civilians mistakenly or intentionally and if they can't run the war without collateral damage then they should leave. The shoot them up style just doesn't cut it either in Afghanistan or in the recent actions of IsraelQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello clete:Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I did suffer a senior moment, didn't I? It's OK. My last mistake was back in '02.
excon
It's okay Ex I know it is difficult for people in the US to keep these outer world places in place, one place looks so much like another, and it does, and we shouldn't let the facts get in the way of a good story.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
High handed tactics have landed Israel in a bunch of trouble and they haven't produced any evidence that there was contraband on those vessels. Having said that I see no reason for the activists to go berserk when the vessels were boarded although the timing and the manner leaves something to be desired
In both cases the US and Israel are exercising their right to self defense. If I was conducting an inquiry into the Israeli action I would be critical of their measured response to the challenge . Paint ball guns ? Gimme a break ! Kim Jong mentally-ILL got away with destroying a ship without provoction.Quote:
The shoot them up style just doesn't cut it either in Afghanistan or in the recent actions of Israel
Tom paint ball guns were innovative as a way not to Kill people but someone had a real gun and live ammunition otherwise they were the most deadly paint ball guns around.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Look why wasn't the flotilla stopped in daylight inside territorial waters? Why this high handed attack in international waters at night? There is self defense and there is stupidity which of course speaks to the military mind. As to Kim knong the ill he didn't do it in the glare of international media
So much for the measured response though:
'Next time we'll use more force'
Hello again, this:
Another ship, or maybe the same one, is headed for Gaza, bound and determined to break the blockade. The Rachel Corrie said that would NOT stop. The Israeli's said they won't allow it to reach Gaza. They said they would allow it to unload its cargo in Israel, and the Israeli's will take to Gaza.
Looks to me like the peaceniks are setting up another violent confrontation. THAT ain't too peaceful.
excon
"We're trying to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip and tell the world that Israel has no right to starve 1.5 million Palestinians," said Greta Berlin, of the Free Gaza Movement
Israel transfers over 10,000 tons of aid per week to Gaza, more than this flotilla carried (and which Israel has already been transferring). It's not about humanitarian aid and it darn sure isn't Israel "starving 1.5 million Palestinians."
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Yeah, Steve, it probably is. Of course, the whole purpose of the embargo/blockade is to squeeze the Palestinians into rejecting their leadership, Hamas. And, they're getting squeezed pretty good, too.
The idea behind it, of course, is to stop Gaza from lobbing rockets into Israel, which is a GOOD idea, after all. It's just not quite working out the way the Israeli's drew it up.
Now, I talk as though I know who should do what next. I haven't a clue.
excon
To me ;the more interesting story coming out of this is the complete drift to the dark side by Turkey . I thought the President's grovelling in Ankara and Cairo last year was supposed to heal all wounds.
BTW ;has anyone been following the Ayers /Dohrn /and Code Pink founder Jodie Evans connection to these peace activists ? Hmmmm.
I had heard mention of it, no surprise of course. My question is will any of these 'peace activists' ever realize they're being used as tools by terrorists... or do they know it and don't care?
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
No more than the Israeli's realize they are terrorizing a captive population in order to punish their leaders... or do they know it and don't care?
excon
Nope, if it were they would have had no problem with Israel's offer to unload it and inspect it at an Israeli port and then truck it into Gaza along with the other aid trucked in there every week.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
You should know better than that:Quote:
No more than the Israeli's realize they are terrorizing a captive population in order to punish their leaders... or do they know it and don't care?
What does the Palestinians own government do for them?Quote:
Despite attacks by Hamas, Israel maintains an ongoing humanitarian corridor for the transfer of perishable and staple food items to Gaza. This conduit is used by internationally recognized organizations including the United Nations and the Red Cross.
Well over a million tons of humanitarian supplies entered Gaza from Israel over the last 18 months equaling nearly a ton of aid for every man, woman and child in Gaza. Millions of dollars worth of international food aid continually flows through the Israeli humanitarian apparatus, ensuring that there is no food shortage in Gaza.
Food and supplies are shipped from Israel to Gaza six days a week. These items were channeled through aid organizations or via Gaza's private sector.
IDF coordinates the transfer of truckloads of humanitarian aid on a daily basis.
Large quantities of essential food items like baby formula, wheat, meat, dairy products and other perishables are transferred daily and weekly to Gaza. Fertilizers that cannot be used to make explosives are shipped into the Strip regularly, as are potato seeds, eggs for reproduction, bees, and equipment for the flower industry.
In 2009 alone, more than 738,000 tons of food and supplies entered Gaza. Pictures in local newspapers show local markets aplenty with fruit, vegetables, cheese, spices, bread and meat to feed 1.4 million Gazans.
In the first quarter of 2010 (January-March), 94,500 tons of supplies were transferred in 3,676 trucks to the Strip: 48,000 tons of food products; 40,000 tons of wheat; 2,760 tons of rice; 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear; 553 tons of milk powder and baby food.
In a typical week the IDF coordinates the transfer of hundreds of trucks containing about 15,000 tons of supplies. During the week of May 18, 2010 there were more than 100 truckloads of animal food, 65 trucks of fruit and vegetables; 22 truckloads of sugar, some 27 truckloads of meat, poultry and fish; and 40 trucks of dairy products. At holiday times, Israel increases transfers. During the Muslim holy days of Ramadhan and Eid al-Adha, Israel shipped some 11,000 heads of cattle into the Strip.
Maintaining medical aid for all in need
The medical corridor
No Palestinian is denied medical care in Israel. However, if the Hamas regime does not grant permits for medical care, the Israeli government can do nothing to help the patient. Israel will facilitate all cases of medical treatments from Gaza, unless the patient is a known perpetrator of terror.
Israel maintains a corridor for the transfer of medical patients out of Gaza, and about 200 medical staff members go through the crossings every month. Israel also helps coordinate the transfer of Jordanian doctors into Gaza.
In 2009 alone, 10,544 patients and their companions left the Gaza Strip for medical treatment in Israel. Moreover, there were 382 emergency evacuations from Gaza for medical purposes.
The Hadassah Medical Organization in Jerusalem donates $3 million in aid annually to treat Palestinians in Israel. Following fears of a swine flu outbreak, three Israeli hospitals were assigned to treat cases in the Gaza Strip and 44,500 immunizations were transferred to the Strip.
Since 2005, Palestinians exploited medical care arrangements more than 20 times to carry out terror attacks.
Medical equipment
In 2009, some 4,883 tons of medical equipment and medicine were brought in.
In the first quarter of 2010, Israel shipped 152 trucks of medical supplies and equipment into Gaza. In a typical week (in May 2010), some 37 truckloads of hygiene products were shipped to Gaza through the land crossings. In addition, a new CAT scan machine was recently shipped to Gaza.
In 2009, Israel coordinated the transfer of medical supplies for the disabled including wheelchairs, crutches and first aid kits. Other equipment shipped to Gaza include heart-monitors, baby feeding tubes, dental equipment, medical books, ambulance emergency equipment, artificial limbs and infant sleeping bags.
Building for the future: Infrastructure and economic aid
Building materials
While the import of cement and iron has been restricted into Gaza since these are used by the Hamas to cast rockets and bunkers, monitored imports of truckloads of cement, iron, and building supplies such as wood and windows are regularly coordinated with international parties. Already in the first quarter of 2010, 23 tons of iron and 25 tons of cement were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
On 13 May 2010, Israel allowed approximately 39 tons of building material into Gaza to help rebuild a damaged hospital. The construction material for al Quds hospital was transferred after safeguards in place and French assurances ensured that the construction material would not be diverted elsewhere.
On 24 May 2010 Israel opened the Kerem Shalom crossing to 97 trucks loaded with aid and goods, including six trucks holding 250 tons of cement and one truck loaded with five tons of iron for projects executed and operated by UNRWA.
Electricity
According to the UN report of May 2010, 120 megawatts (over 70%) of the Strip's electricity supply comes from the Israeli electric grid, while 17 MWs come from Egypt and 30 MWs are produced by the Gaza city power station. Since January 2010, there has been deterioration in the supply of electricity to the Gaza Strip since the Hamas regime is unwilling to purchase the fuel to run the Gaza City power station.
Throughout 2009 Israel transferred 41 trucks of equipment for the maintenance of Gaza's electricity grid.
Israel facilitates the transfer of fuel through the border, and maintains that the diversion of fuel from domestic power generators to other uses is wholly a Hamas decision. Over 133 million liters of fuel entered Gaza from Israel over the last 18 months.
Sewage
During the first quarter of 2010, the UN coordinated with Israel the transfer of equipment for UNWRA to upgrade the sewage pumping station. In 2009, 127 trucks containing more than 3,000 tons of hypochlorite entered the Gaza Strip for water purification purposes. Moreover, 48 trucks of equipment for improving the sanitation infrastructure led to a substantial reduction in the Beit Lahya facility's waste levels.
Economy
The United States, Israel, Canada, and the European Union have frozen funds to the Palestinian Hamas government since 2006, recognizing it as a terror organization. Israel has taken measures to support trade and commerce, the banking system, and the existing financial market in the Gaza Strip.
Gazans produce much of their own food products including olives, citrus, vegetables, Halal beef, and dairy products. Primary exports from Gaza are cut flowers and citrus, with trade partners being Israel, Egypt and the West Bank. During 2009, 7.5 million tons of flowers and 54 tons of strawberries were exported from Gaza with Israeli cooperation.
In 2009, 1.1 billion shekels (about $250 million) were transferred to the Gaza Strip for the ongoing activity of international organizations and to pay the salaries of Palestinian Authority workers. 40 million damaged bank notes were traded for new bills, and at the request of the Palestinian Monetary Fund, 282.5 million shekels were transferred from Gazan to Israeli banks.
In February 2010, an agreement was reached with the Palestinian Authority's National Insurance Department to ensure that pensions reached those formerly employed in Israel. The funds were deposited in banks in Judea and Samaria, while the Palestinian Authority was given the responsibility of distributing the funds to the pensioners in Gaza.
Fostering hope and trust - Quality of life in Gaza
The cycle of life
* Projected life expectancy in the Gaza Strip (2010) is 73.86, greater than Estonia, Malaysia, Jamaica and Bulgaria.
* The infant mortality rate in Gaza is 17.71 per 1000, lower than that of China, Jordan, Lebanon and Thailand.
* Fertility rates are about five children per family, equal to many African nations such as Rwanda and Senegal.
Healthcare
Palestinian families receive the same subsidized healthcare as Israelis, about 10% of the cost for the same treatment in the United States.
Schoolchildren
Israel transfers school equipment supplied by UNRWA including notebooks, school bags, writing implements and textbooks. Israel is currently coordinating the transfer of 200,000 laptops for Gaza schoolchildren and the shipment of 74 maritime containers for conversion into Gaza classrooms.
In the first quarter of 2010, Israel transferred 250 trucks with equipment for the UNWRA summer camp, including arts-and-crafts equipment, swimming pools, inflatable toys, ice cream machines, musical instruments, clothing, sports equipment.
Electronic life
About 20% of the population in Gaza owns a personal computer - this is more than Portugal, Brazil, Saudi Arabia or Russia. They have access to ADSL and dial-up Internet service, provided by one of four providers.
About 70% of Gazans own a TV and radio and have access to satellite TV or broadcast TV from the PA or Israel.
Gaza has well-developed telephone landlines, and extensive mobile telephone services provided by PalTel (Jawwal) and the Israeli provider Cellcom.
According to USAID report, 81% of households in Gaza have access to a cell phone. The PA-owned cell phone provider Jawwal has more than 1 million cellular subscribers.
Travel
Despite the inherent dangers involved, Israel permits Gazans and visitors to travel between Gaza and Israel, from Gaza to Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), and even abroad for medical treatment, religious pilgrimages, and business trips. Whenever possible Israel allows for diplomatic activities and trade and commerce with the Gaza Strip.
In additional to medical travel, 21,200 activists from international organizations and over 400 diplomatic delegations were permitted entry into Gaza, while 2,200 Palestinians employed by international organizations were given exit permits from the Gaza Strip.
147 permits were given to Palestinian students for academic studies around the world and special permission was given to Gazan footballers to train in Judea and Samaria and compete in international matches abroad.
During the Christmas holiday, approximately 400 permits were given to visit Bethlehem from Gaza as well 100 permits to travel abroad. In addition, 257 permits were given to businessmen from Gaza to facilitate business operations.
You know that is a very good question. It gives them the illusion of self determination and having a country of their own. Israel doesn't want these people on the electoral roles because eventually they will outnumber the Israeli's so they can't become Israeli citizens, and yet their lives are controlled by Israel. These are the people who made a decision not to be part of Israel when it was formed but their beligerence caused Israel to invade their territory and we have seen the result for decades. A problem for which only bloodshed is the solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
... or they could join the civilized world ;recognize Israel ,live in peace with them ,and build a legitimate nation for themselves.
If they could advance as a culture about two centuries in one election.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yes they could. ChoicesQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
In order to join the civilized world you need to have a civilized mentality, Tom, this is not something the people of Gaza have demonstrated. The days of the city state are gone, it has only been successfully done once in modern times and by people of vastly different mentality. Is there anyone who thinks there could successfully be a Palestinian state in two halves separated by Israel, so Gaza needs to develop sperately. It's original structure as part of Egypt was a better alternative and it recognised the realities but not even the Egyptians want the responsibilityQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
It appears to me that Turkey ;in an effort to recreate the Ottoman Empire ,has taken up the mantle of the Palestinian cause.
I have to study this some more . I did not anticipate a contest between Turkey and Iran for the Ummah .
I wonder how any of you can expect a country to side with those who have occupied their land and demolished their homes. Enemy of their enemy will be considered a friend in such a case.
And you talk about development and joining the civilized world? How? You really think the pressures put on the people are imagined, it is real to them, to wonder if they will have water or electricity or food or medical help or even be back home safely if they venture out.
And when they lash out or join those "terrorists" as you call them, who is considered freedom fighter by the Palestinians, because who else is fighting in their cause?
How easy is it for you to judge a war that is being fought in another land,and state who should give up what. What if it was your own home,your own people, your own families, then would you consider giving up to the enemy, who is making you lose all these things?
As Clete mentioned how can anyone expect two separate halves to develop one state.
Someone has to be providing for both sides involved in any war.
Some economies thrive on the ongoing wars around the world, whatever the facts, the leading nations are supplying war equipment to any number of countries funding wars and causing disruption and to put an end to war means losing on their ill gained profits.
Speechlesstx,
You are giving facts provided by the Isreal Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and you think their information will not be biased? Please do not be naïve, a government can hide and reveal information as they want.
I can state this and that and say I am helping this person and that person but unless you reach the people who were supposed to get my aid and they confirm my statement,how can you say it is 100% the truth.
I would take any statement given by any country's government sources with a pinch (or maybe a whole sack) of salt.
.
[QUOTE=firmbeliever;2381171]I realize where that report came from, but if it's wrong, where are the people in Gaza getting anything from, Hamas? By the way, if it's wrong where are the reports claiming it's a lie?Quote:
Speechlesstx,
You are giving facts provided by the Isreal Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and you think their information will not be biased? Please do not be naïve, a government can hide and reveal information as they want.
I can state this and that and say I am helping this person and that person but unless you reach the people who were supposed to get my aid and they confirm my statement,how can you say it is 100% the truth.
I would take any statement given by any country's government sources with a pinch (or maybe a whole sack) of salt.
[QUOTE=speechlesstx;2381238]The people in Gaza are getting something from Hamas because these are the only people willing and able to help them, but there is a price and perhaps the price is too high. What Israel should do is change the nature of their blockade, allow ships to dock in Gaza but maintain control at that port. This is difficult because they have already withdrawn from Gaza but they could still board and inspect all vessels and confiscate arms. Little can be achieved until relations are normalised and the Palestinians give up the idea of reconquering Israel. Politically it is reasonable to expect Gaza will remain radicalised for sometime. It would take generational change perhaps more than one for it to be otherwiseQuote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
But where are the Arab nations willing to take the people of Gaza, no it suits them to have this septic wound in the side of Israel
OCHA oPt UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory
Speech,
I am not saying all of it is a lie, just that a government can lie and distort.
The same way internal conflicts within Gaza are killing civilians, and add to that unaccounted for incidents throughout the occupied territory both within and by Israel.
It is the citizens who suffer and when they are under this pressure, we expect them to make the right choices?
The kids who has carried their parents to the grave want to vent their anger and who is with them, but those who will aid them with weapons and teach them to kill. If that is the only way they can react, they will choose that.
Starve them,deprive them and block their very lives and they will choose to kill or be killed.
.
I'll tell you what makes it into Gaza in abundance... Qasssam rockets. That my friend is the only reason for the Israeli blockade.Quote:
but unless you reach the people who were supposed to get my aid and they confirm my statement,how can you say it is 100% the truth.
You mean Gaza ? Gaza is unoccupied (unless you are one of these people who think all of Israel is occupied land) .Quote:
I wonder how any of you can expect a country to side with those who have occupied their land and demolished their homes. Enemy of their enemy will be considered a friend in such a case.
What reciprocal gestures has Hamas made ? Have they even renounced their charter statement refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist ? Hamas plays politics with the aid ,denying it to Fatah supporters .
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...698766,00.html
You ask... What if it was your own home,your own people, your own families, then would you consider giving up to the enemy, who is making you lose all these things? And I reply that the people of Ashkilon have a right to live secure from the constant barrage of rocket attacks into their homes .
I say that the Israeli incursion into Gaza last year ,and the subsequent blockade are all reaction to Palestinian aggression .
The Palestinians have to face reality that Israel exists and learn to peacefully coexist.
Indeed that is a prerequisite to a lasting peace, and Israel needs to recognise progress and relax the restrictions it has placed on the Palistinine people. It could be said that the west bank is largely peacefull at the moment and the attacks from Gaza have stoppedQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
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