Ask Me Help Desk - Now that the Gulf of Mexico is ruined...

Now that the Gulf of Mexico is ruined...

I'm concerned that in addition to allowing millions of gallons of oil to pour into the water, BP is also adding undisclosed amounts of chemical dispersant, which may or may not be even worse than the oil. I am concerned that this disaster is going to be swept out into the Atlantic and possibly contaminate the Oceans around the world. I don't think they are trying hard enough to stop the flow, nor do I think they are doing enough to try to collect the oil that has spilled and continues to spill. I wonder why they don't have the technology to put big suction hoses down there and suck it up at the source. I don't really understand why they can't suck up the oil where it is spilling and filter the oil from the water before the water is released back into the gulf. Since they apparently can't suck it up and they don't know how to stop it, wouldn't it be the right thing to shut down other off shore oil rigs until we catch up with technology that could stop a disaster like this from happening again?

After 2 days of hearings the US Senate has come to a consensus that the blow out preventer was faulty... duh .I'm sure there are several US Senators who are experts on oil well pressures.

In the category of never let a crisis go to waste ;Sen Lurch Kerry repackaged his cap and trade bill as an "energy bill" and reintroduced it today.

Quote:

"The challenges we face - underscored by the immense tragedy in the Gulf of Mexico - are reason to redouble our efforts to reform our nation's energy policies," Mr Obama said.

BBC News - Deepwater Horizon blowout preventer 'faulty' - Congress

The answer to your question is that there are risks involved in all current energy creation. But we need to continue to exploit existing sources to bridge the gap to a time when the sciencefiction sources will be widely employed.

So ,we need to find the cause ;correct the deficiencies,clean up the mess... and forge ahead.

Somehow, to me, 'tragedy' is not the right word. Criminal disaster sounds more like it.

So, why did "they" modify the BOP so one of the safety systems didn't work? Why did "they" try to activate a system that was disabled, after the "failure"?

This should read, "Why did "they" try to activate a system that was made broken prior to the blowout, after the blowout?

Why didn't the BOP go through testing prior to cementing which is inheranty a risky procedure? That would have surely picked up the dead battery.

Where is the finger pointing now?

Did you notice that there were very few BP employees on the rig? I think it was less than a dozen.

EDIT: Added a necessary comma and the stuff in italics.

I didn't notice that. :( I'm not sure I would use BP gas even if they were giving it away free, now. I take that back, I am sure I wouldn't and won't use BP gas.

Made a couple of changes to my post. It was difficult to follow and ambiguous.

I think you have to keep perspective in these things. It is Murphy's Law that if a thing can fail it will fail, and when you try to fix, it you will fail. Murphy was an optimist.

So, it is unfortunate that a billion dollar industry is affected by this, but if you take away the oil supply you will destroy many billion dollar industries. What this says is there must be much more rigorous testing and certification of safety systems.

The reality is that the technology doesn't exist to control ocean currents so no matter what they do some oil may escape to the Atlantic. Nature has it's own control mechanism and it can deal with smaller quantities

Clete excellent response.

Nature in fact routinely leaks large qty of oil into the Gulf .

Natural Oil Seeps in the Gulf of Mexico

Oil in the Sea III: Inputs, Fates, and Effects

In fact ;under normal conditions (present disaster excluded ) the natural seepage represents a significant percentage of all petroleum in the Gulf of Mexico.

People in the Gulf were using tar to coat their boats long before off shore drilling ever happened.

An argument made is that extraction of the oil releaves the pressure on the natural vents .

Now ;how does nature react ? Nature cleanses ; heals itself and survives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete excellent response.

Hello tom:

Yeah, you and that Rush Limprod dude think it OK because oil is NATURAL. Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

I am familiar with Murphy's Law, thanks for reminding me. Makes me more sure than ever that off shore oil drilling and operating rigs should stop until technology to clean up an 'accident' catches up with our ability to blow a gasket.

I was unaware that oil is naturally vented on the sea floor... but, oil rig extraction does NOT appear to relieve pressure, otherwise why would oil be gushing (seemingly under high pressure) from the broken BP well?

Anyone know of a list of all oil companies that have offshore rigs?

Today a natural gas rig went down off Venezuela . We can regulate it to death and that still will not guarantee that it is risk free.
We can ban all drilling off our coast and that won't prevent deep sea drilling by other nations in the Gulf. In fact ,Russian and Chinese drilling is going to happen off the Florida keys . Do we know what procedures and regulations they fall under ?

Most of the known oil reserves are owned by nations ,and nations are going to continue to drill because it is a product they can exploit for revenue . But the known reserves are not enough to satisfy demand;and there is no foreseeable time frame where alternatives will replace the need for carbon based fuel as the primary energy supply. Thus the alternative is to drill and explore in deeper seas until such time that alternative become a realistic alternative.

Not every disaster can be anticipated . No doubt corrections and procedures will be initiated to prevent similar spills from occurring . But ;the next disaster will not be the same as the last one and the kewpie dance of finger pointing and pontificating will happen again before the blowhards announce that a newer safer system is in place... and so on and so on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello tom:

Yeah, you and that Rush Limprod dude think it ok because oil is NATURAL. Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

EX you may also realise then that CO2 is natural and that nature also has it's own mechanisms for dealing with it. You can live your life in the backwoods with a campfire to provide heat and light and a donkey for transport or you can take advantage of oil and the products that come withit. If you do you might have to get your hands dirty now and again. It's another inconvenient truth

I have been somewhat involved at the local level in the decision making process for construction projects. The one common feature of these has been that the proposer of the project was required to submit a detailed Environmental Imapct Statement for public perusal and comment.

It now turns out that the Obama Dept of the Interior's Minerals Management Service (MMS) permitted BP to proceed with the Deepwater Horizon project granting a waiver for the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) on April 6, 2009... essentially bypassing approved regulations ,ignoring their oversight resonsibilities ,and rubberstamping the project.

This raises issues about the competency of Interior Sec Ken Salazar and staffers such as (vacation... happy to get away) Tommy Strickland .

It appears that Salazar is quite competent at rhetoric ,but may not be so competent in performance of his job. He came into office saying that he would move MMS in a different direction after claiming it was too cozy with industry.But under Salazar the agency apparently granted all types of exemptions to standard regulatory control.

Not only that ;but according to ABC's Jake Tapper ;even after the spill ,the MMS continues to grant “categorical exclusions” for oil companies, allowing them to bypass the last stage of environmental review before proceeding with drilling projects.
Interior Department Continues to Issue ?Categorical Exclusions? for Oil Drilling, Administration Official Acknowledges - Political Punch

Quote:

Kierán Suckling, executive director of the Tucson, Arizona-based Center for Biological Diversity, told ABC News that the Interior Department is in fact able to conduct reviews in 30 days, as they do in Alaska.

“They have 30 days and instead they do an approval in 24 hours” with the exemption, Suckling said. “They're just rubber-stamping this stuff.”

Suckling said in a statement that MMS officials have “learned absolutely nothing from this national catastrophe. (MMS) is still illegally exempting dangerous offshore drilling projects in the Gulf of Mexico from all environmental review. It is outrageous and unacceptable.”

This isn't a case of not enough regulation. It is an example of a bloated Federal bureaucracy in action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

This isn't a case of not enough regulation. It is an example of a bloated Federal bureaucracy in action.

Hello tom:

Nahh... BLOAT has nothing to do with it... POLITICS has EVERYTHING to do with it. This wasn't a file getting lost in a big stack of files. This was PURPOSELY done. Yes, the agency FAILED. But, I suspect it's because the Bush managers weren't shown the door when Obama took over. Giving the oil industry a blank check is NOT a Democratic thing. It IS a Republican thing.

Either way, it shows a lack of management, and Obama is in charge.

excon

Well that's the problem with government in general. You have heard me complain before that bureaucracies remain entrenched regardless of who is in charge.

Salazar actually has a decent proposal if he follows though with it... separating the fee and licensing collection from the enforcement parts of the agency. This I believe should be done across the board with all Federal agencies
The Associated Press: Salazar names 2 to oversee agency restructuring

Well, not that I was planning on it in the near future... though I have gone to the gulf on many vacations, from South Padre Island to South Florida, I'm not going to go on vacation to the gulf of Mexico, again, possibly ever. All those who live in the area who count on tourist dollars have lost big time. Plus all the killed sea life... I know there was a dead zone there already, but this could not have helped at all.

Those who gave BP a 'pass' as well as BP owners should be held accountable. I hope they are.

This is it... Everyone should read Revelation (8:8-11),(16:3),(18:9-19). It says it all, and what we're to expect!

Well, at least President Obama is angry at the finger-pointing.

It just seems very stupid to disable a critical safety device and then do a potentially hazardous operation and it also seems stupid to use water rather than the thick mix.

Note, the most recent logs are convieniently missing. Time for a black box recorder or a ship nearby or transmit the info wirelessly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

Well, at least President Obama is angry

... at long last. I can't help but feel his reaction is much too little way too late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle513

This is it.....Everyone should read Revelation (8:8-11),(16:3),(18:9-19). It says it all, and what we're to expect!!

Hello M:

I wondered when the dude in the death robes would show up, carrying his sign that the world is DOOMED. I didn't know he'd be a chick, though.

excon

Gulf Oil Spill May Far Exceed Government, BP Estimates : NPR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringer

Gulf Oil Spill May Far Exceed Government, BP Estimates : NPR

There is always the ultimate solution, nuke it, that should seal the leak and burn off the oil. See, no one is prepared to admin they even thought about it.

Look, bad news travels fast and with Murpy's Law in operation things are always ten times worse than the first reports. This is what you get when you allow capitalism free reign but the other side of Murphy's Law is that the simplist solution is sometimes the best, now they are using a siphon to capture the oil

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

This is what you get when you allow capitalism free reign.

Hello again, clete:

Nahhh. This is what you get when government doesn't do its job.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, clete:

Nahhh. This is what you get when government doesn't do its job.

excon

Now ex you can have it both ways, surely you want small government?

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Now ex you can have it both ways, surely you want small government?

Hello again, clete:

You're right. I want small government. I don't want NO government. And, what I'd want my SMALL government to do is regulate how we treat our national resources - not the stuff I put in my body. People who want to regulate that, DON'T want small government.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, clete:

You're right. I want small government. I don't want NO government. And, what I'd want my SMALL government to do is regulate how we treat our national resources - not the stuff I put in my body. People who wanna regulate that, DON'T want small government.

excon

You don't get it ex, the job of government is to regulate harmfull substances

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

You don't get it ex, the job of government is to regulate harmfull substances

Hello again, clete:

I think I do. Let me see. Pot in my body = good. Oil pouring into our ocean = bad.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, clete:

You're right. I want small government. I don't want NO government. And, what I'd want my SMALL government to do is regulate how we treat our national resources - not the stuff I put in my body. People who wanna regulate that, DON'T want small government.

excon

I think the US government's job would/should be to take care of US territories, like the Gulf of Mexico.

Hello again:

I'm sure those of you who follow current events remembers me talking about throwing our trash into the air. It just seems to me, that doing that is going to do something bad. The rightwingers here constantly remind me that nobody is saying that it's OK to throw your trash into the air.

But, I'm hearing from some righty's that it's really going to be OK that we're dumping oil into the ocean. Brit Hume, on the weekend FOX show kept emphasizing that point by saying the Gulf "is a BIG ocean". Rush Limprod says it too.

Which makes me think you righty's really DO believe that it's OK to throw our trash into the air. After all, the atmosphere is pretty BIG.

excon

It's NOT OK. Pollution kills... and now I hear the oil in the gulf is going into the stream that will loop it around Florida and into the Atlantic.

Hello this:

Mark my words. This will be remembered as the WORST environmental disaster to have EVER befallen us. If we kill the oceans, we die too.

excon

:(

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello this:

Mark my words. This will be remembered as the WORST environmental disaster to have EVER befallen us. If we kill the oceans, we die too.

excon

Ex do you remember the exxon valdez, the worst environmental disaster.

This will be the worst until the next time we do something stupid

We can tilt at windmills hoping sci-fi solutions for our energy needs will emerge in the short term ;or we can fix this problem ;learn from it and move on. Ask the miners in W Va. If this is a risky business. Valdez today is clean so the damage is repairable .

By the way the worse disaster was Chernobyl. 336,000 people were forced to resettled. Does that mean we should quit nuclear power ? No

No we should not quit nuclear power. I think I read a while ago that the vegetation around Chernobyl has flourished, and though the animals may have suffered some DNA damage, wildlife has also flourished.

Hello again, tom:

On FOX News Sunday, Brit Hume told Juan Williams that the country needs to have an adult conversation about oil. (He's so pompous!) "We're NOT going to stop using it", he lectured Juan.

Hume got it to a teenage level. He STILL didn't get very adult about it. Because if he did, he would have said that oil is finite. We ARE going to run out, and we WILL stop using it. That is just so. The question we have to ask ourselves is, are we going to do it NOW, or are we going to do it LATER.

If we do it NOW, the pain is going to be less than if we do it later. But, if we do it RIGHT NOW, TODAY, there might not be any pain at all. In fact, it might just be the thing that pulls us OUT of this recession.

Now, THAT'S an adult conversation about energy.

excon

PS> (edited) Well, I don't mean STOP, as in cold turkey. I mean BEGIN an alternative energy program TODAY!

I did not watch it so I don't know the tone. Nor did I read the transcript so I can't put his comments in context.

He is of course correct that in the near term there is nothing out there that satisfies our current energy needs than carbon based fuels .
Of course take realistic conservation measures and explore all the science fiction alternatives ,and even adopt (where realistic )the alternatives that have been developed .

But I do believe ,given the increase in demand for energy worldwide;that there is a suitable immediate replacement for oil gas coal. The best approach for now is "all hands on deck" . I do not agree that we should stop using it NOW . I would like to see the plan you have to quit using carbon based energy sources now and replace the infrastructure to accommodate some yet to be discovered energy supply that could immediately replace existing energy demands ,let alone future demands.

Accidents should be a wake up call. But you can often get the wrong message from them .
The 3 Mile Island accident denied us a valuable source of clean energy for decades . Instead ,a recognition of the dangers in energy exploration ,extraction ,and generation should be part of the calculation... that where safeguards can be employed they should be .

But accidents should not make us shy.Nor should we be deluded in the thought that clean renewable alternative energies are a panacia .

To give you one example ;all these fuel cells ,and batteries for windmills everyone is in love with requires the mining of even rarer minerals than oil .The vast supply of these minerals are found in nations that are just as dangerous to be beholden to as the Arab nations .
But they have been touted as part of the brave new utopian world .

Many of the challenges involved in adopting alternatives do not get discussed with this enamour with anything but oil utopia.

You would agree that an adult discussion about energy supply would also recognize that it isn't as easy or as painless as portrayed to convert a world economy .

The good news is that when viable alternatives to existing technology have become available in the past ,the free market recognized it and there was a rapid conversion .

So yes ,I see a day when there will be viable alternatives . That day is not now.

Quote:

PS> (edited) Well, I don't mean STOP, as in cold turkey. I mean BEGIN an alternative energy program TODAY!

PS I agree and no one disputes that .

So stop the drilling off the US coast, become more dependent on oil for other countries, lets triple the cost of everything. Oh I forgot, Mexico,China,Cuba and every other country has wells in the Gulf in international water or off their own coast. The gulf is shared check your map. Accidents happen and a plan was prepared but never funded. Who does that? You Know fund things that protect the interest of the American people? When the accident happen no equipment was available because no one was given the job and funds. The damage could have been far less had the equipment been ready and waiting. BP my own the well the damages fall at the feet of congress.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meyowgee

BP my own the well the damages fall at the feet of congress.

I'm not sure what that sentence says.

BP "neglected" to provide a $500,000 piece of equipment that would have prevented this accident. Greed is what it comes down to -- greed on the part of BP.