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  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:11 AM
    excon
    Freedom of the Press
    Hello:

    Wikileaks (http://wikileaks.org/) has probably produced more scoops in its short life than the Washington Post has in the past 30 years. If they had not obtained and then posted this video, we would not know about what happened with this incident.

    The video is gruesome. Before it was leaked, the pentagon said they were responding to US troops coming under fire. The video shows something different...

    The point of my post isn't the video, however. It's about wikileaks OBTAINING and RELEASING this video. I've been having a spirited discussion on another thread with some right wingers regarding their rant about restoring the Constitution. I wonder what they'll say about our First Amendment rights to a free press. Whadya want to bet that they'll condemn the release of the video, and out of the other side of their mouths, they'll scream about restoring the Constitution?

    excon
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:26 AM
    tomder55

    It sucks when journalists get killed when they choose to embed themselves with enemy insurgents . The rest of the video looks like troops engaging insurgents during a war.

    Wikileaks is a disgrace .They are serving as propagandists for the enemy.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:28 AM
    NeedKarma
    There is a spirited discussion of it on Digg: Classified US military video depicting slaying of Iraqis

    I know you want to talk about the constitution, just wanted to offer the background.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:33 AM
    tomder55

    The answer to the constitutional question is that Wiki is constitutionally permitted to release the video but whoever supplied it is a traitor.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:34 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Wikileaks is a disgrace .They are serving as propagandists for the enemy.

    Hello again, tom:

    So, you DON'T support our First Amendment rights to a free press. That's what I thought you guy's would say. And, uhhh, that restoring the Constitution thingy you guys are hysterical about - what happened to that?

    excon
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:34 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The answer to the constitutional question is that Wiki is constitutionally permitted to release the video but whoever supplied it is a traitor.

    Why? Because it exposed a "mistake"?
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:36 AM
    tomder55

    There was no mistake .It is war. The leaking is what is not covered constitutionally .
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:40 AM
    NeedKarma
    There were no AK-47s, no RPG (it was a camera on a tripod.), kids in a car were fired upon by the helicopter. No one ever fired at the americans.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:42 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The leaking is what is not covered constitutionally .

    Hello again, tom:

    I don't know about that: Whistleblower Protection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    excon
  • Apr 6, 2010, 07:44 AM
    tomder55

    So the troops have to wait to be fired upon 1st ? This isn't police action it is war. You say it wasn't RPG . I see something different. But even if it is a camera in a war zone ,why should the troops assume that someone wants to take their picture when pointing what looks like a weapon at them.
    I'm sure Wiki wouldn't honor their memory or restraint.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 08:10 AM
    tomder55

    Ex will get back to you on the whistlebower act. Not sure it applies to the military or for classified information . Also it is possible under various intelligence acts that the proper release would be to Congress and not the press.

    I have emailed some people I know who are more familiar and will get back when they reply. Wikileaks is also a challenge because they operate inside and outside the US .I know much of their information has been filtered through their London operation.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 08:27 AM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    And, uhhh, that restoring the Constitution thingy you guys are hysterical about - what happened to that?
    That would be putting words in my mouth . For the most part I think the Constitution doesn't need restoring . I point out specific cases where I think Congress ,the President oversteps... or in most cases ,the Judiciary mistakenly rules.

    I agree with most of what the teaparty says about the Constitutional rationale for the growth of the government .But rarely do I find violations by the government regarding the press or speech.

    The only 1st amendment issue I usually have is the misinterpretation of the establishment clause and the free exercise clauses to the 1st amendment .
  • Apr 6, 2010, 08:44 AM
    Synnen
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    So the troops have to wait to be fired upon 1st ? This isn't police action it is war. You say it wasn't RPG . I see something different. But even if it is a camera in a war zone ,why should the troops assume that someone wants to take their picture when pointing what looks like a weapon at them.
    I'm sure Wiki wouldn't honor their memory or restraint.

    If it's war--REALLY war--why aren't we doing an all out effort to WIN it? We have the military and technology to take the country over and wipe out the population.

    Oh wait--we're trying to be HUMANE during war.

    Either we're the bad guys who are trying to win, or we're not really fighting a war.

    Take your pick.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 08:48 AM
    tomder55

    Hate to break the news to you... actually glad to break the news to you. The Iraq war has been won.

    Still waiting for someone to declare VI day and schedule the ticker tape parade down the 'canyon of heroes' that our troops so richly deserve.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 08:51 AM
    Fr_Chuck

    Yes restoring things to be "like" they were when consitituion was written.
    No news people with the military, anyone even writing negative about troops considered an enemy

    Churches that were loyal to England had to close and their lands taken away.

    Yep the good old days when it was first written and how the founders wanted it
  • Apr 6, 2010, 08:56 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    There were no AK-47s, no RPG (it was a camera on a tripod.), kids in a car were fired upon by the helicopter. No one ever fired at the americans.

    Haven't watched the video yet but the opening disclaimer states "although some of the men appear to have been armed," which means most likely they were.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 09:02 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Hate to break the news to you ...actually glad to break the news to you. the Iraq war has been won.

    Hello again, tom:

    I'm going to reserve my vote till the fat lady sings. We still got lot's of soldiers there. Let's see how things are when they leave. Like when Bush hung his banner out too soon, I think you're being premature.

    excon
  • Apr 6, 2010, 09:38 AM
    tomder55

    Our troops are still in Germany ,Japan,the Balkans ,Korea among many other nations . We will have a presence in Iraq by mutual agreement of our Iraq ally for a long time despite the President's claims of complete withdrawal.
  • Apr 6, 2010, 11:12 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Ex will get back to you on the whistlebower act. Not sure it applies to the military or for classified information . Also it is possible under various intelligence acts that the proper release would be to Congress and not the press.

    I have emailed some people I know who are more familiar and will get back when they reply. Wikileaks is also a challenge because they operate inside and outside the US .I know much of their information has been filtered through their London operation.

    Here is the law pertinent to members of the Armed Forces .
    As suspected ;"whistlebowers " are protected when they report to Congress ;and inspector ,or within the chain of command.
    US CODE: Title 10,1034. Protected communications; prohibition of retaliatory personnel actions
  • Apr 6, 2010, 01:08 PM
    cdad

    Im not sure what other had seen in the video but there was communication of others at the scene that fled and it caused the second attatck on a home. I don't see where they weren't doing their job. The unfortunate side is that yes. We must be fired upon first and more then once then receive permission to engauge. Its insane to release the dogs of war and put them on a short leash.
  • Apr 7, 2010, 10:41 PM
    inthebox

    Wow, pretty shocking.

    Questions though:

    What about the raw unedited video?

    The opening intro - leading, you know, what the agenda is - so I'm thinking this is propaganda from the get go.

    Could they have just shown the video without the editing? Without the labels?

    Is the camera magnified? How much? Did the soldiers in the helicopters have less, the same, or better magnification? At the 4 min mark - to my untrained civilian eyes, a long cylinder of any type can be a potential rpg.

    The people in the van - did they not see the helicopter circling overhead? Why did they not wave white flags or signal that they were civilians?

    Clearly some of the voices were "cowboyish" but there was a protocol as to when to engage.

    Regarding the injured children - there is no mention of how far or how long it would take to get to the local hospital versus the military hospital. The shortest time to the most capable hospital is medically the best - but no information was given - other than the presumption that the military hospital was better. In addition, we don't know the status at the military hospital. Were they full? Were all personel required for an emergency trauma available or were all the doctors and nurses already busy?

    Not being in the military, not having been in combat or facing enemy fire, not knowing what the soldiers went through in the past hour or day or week or month or how long they had been on patrol, it would not be right for me to Monday morning quarterback their actions.

    I'm shocked, heart broken for the lost lives here and the injuries to the children. War - just tragic.



    G&P
  • Apr 8, 2010, 01:44 AM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    The opening intro - leading, you know, what the agenda is - so I'm thinking this is propaganda from the get go.

    Could they have just shown the video without the editing? Without the labels?
    G&P

    These were the first questions in my mind as well.

    As to the leak itself - Wikileaks got quite a scoop, kudos to them. The leakers need their clearance yanked and reassignment to someplace where they can't do any harm, say the sewage treatment plant at Ft. Hood. Pending charges being filed.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 03:34 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Catsmine View Post
    The leakers need their clearance yanked and reassignment to someplace where they can't do any harm, say the sewage treatment plant at Ft. Hood. Pending charges being filed.

    Hello Cats:

    Now, I don't know about you, but I want to know what the government is doing in my name. I believe in secret stuff. I still have my clearance. But, keeping stuff secret because you don't want the enemy to know your tactics, is one thing. Keeping stuff secret because you don't want your own people to know what you're doing, is something else.

    I think the leakers should be given a medal.

    excon
  • Apr 8, 2010, 04:08 AM
    tomder55

    I can't imagine how WWII would've been fought in the age of video and the internet .
  • Apr 8, 2010, 04:39 AM
    Synnen
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I can't imagine how WWII would've been fought in the age of video and the internet .

    It would have been over sooner, because we (the rest of the world) would have gotten involved in stopping the Nazi atrocities sooner--probably because of a journalist getting us information.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 04:43 AM
    tomder55

    Look up the NY Slimes and what the Sulzberger family knew about the Holocaust . Look up the Spanish American war and the role the press played in that imperial grab.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 07:50 AM
    Synnen

    Frankly, I trust the press more than I trust our politicians.

    I'd rather have the press showing us what military is doing in a war military, than our politicians hiding how much money they personally are making from a war, and politicians lying to us about why we're at war to begin with.

    PS--if we WON the war, why are we still there? And if we WON the war, what did we GAIN from the billions of dollars we spent over there? I mean, I still can't take knitting needles or a lighter on a plane--so, we didn't win "safety". The price of oil didn't drop, so we didn't win natural resources. We didn't stop terrorism, so we didn't win world support. What, exactly, did we WIN?
  • Apr 8, 2010, 08:47 AM
    tomder55

    All the war objectives have been met therefore it is won. WE deposed the previous regime ;a regime that still waged war against us even as the US and the Brits were the sole enforcers of UN resolutions . A regime that still retained it's capacity to quicky reconstitute it's CBW program,and had proven a willingness to use them

    We have helped the Iraqi people build a functional democracy and a government increasingly gaining the capablity of defending itself against internal and external threat. The US troops are not involved in any real counterinsurgency there but are there by a joint defense agreement ( status of forces agreement );as we have with many countries on the planet, between us and the freely elected government of Iraq .

    These were the goals of the war and they have been achieved . Whether there is a future financial benefit ( I thought the opponents of the war did not like the idea of going to war for oil) that remains to be seen .It will depend on if the free Iraqi people want a mutually beneficial economic arrangement .

    From a strictly strategic perspective we have a presence in the "cradle of civilization" in the heart of the ummah and on the border with the next big threat of the region .

    As for the internal security... no one said the Iraq war would end the threat of the jihadists. Yesterday it was a Qatar diplomat who tested our airline security responses.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 08:50 AM
    Synnen

    So... we went to war in Iraq to overthrow their government and put in a new government we like better?

    And this is something you don't want journalists in on?
  • Apr 8, 2010, 09:19 AM
    excon

    Hello Synn:

    You're asking some pretty good questions... You go, girl.

    excon
  • Apr 8, 2010, 09:46 AM
    tomder55

    Like this was a secret ?

    I would remind you that the Bush adm made a case for regime change for the most part of a year before the Iraq war resolution ,and yes I consider it quite an achievement that the Iraqis decided now in more than a couple elections to chose a representative government .(no we did not "put in a new government" . The Iraqis freely chose the nature and structure of their government )

    The resolution itself was passed a bipartisan overwhelming majority in both houses of Congress ( 296-133 in the House and 77-23 in the Senate ) . 72% of Americans supported the war at the onset.

    I also approve the fact that the US crushed the Nazi's in Germany and paved the way for democracy there.I also approve the fact that the US crushed the Japanese Empire and helped them on the path to democracy .

    BTW .didn't you just say the world should've moved quicker to end the German atrocities ? I think you did . Why wasn't it imperitive the world act to stop Saddam's genocides ?
  • Apr 8, 2010, 09:58 AM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    I think the leakers should be given a medal.

    excon

    For violating the oaths they took or for breaking their employment agreements?
  • Apr 8, 2010, 10:28 AM
    Synnen
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post

    BTW .didn't you just say the world should've moved quicker to end the German atrocities ? I think you did . Why wasn't it imperitive the world act to stop Saddam's genocides ?

    I was part of the 28% that saw the whole thing as the WRONG thing to so. Some terrorists from Al Kaida attack us, they're out of Afghanistan, but we should go attack IRAQ? Oooohh... that makes soooo much sense.

    And if it was just about Saddam's atrocities, why didn't we get involved until AFTER 9-11? Hmmm?

    Oh, and SPEAKING of 9-11, do you really think that 72% of the public would have wanted us to attack Iraq (again, NOT the country that attacked us on our own soil) if it had not been for JOURNALISTS covering the 9-11 attacks? I doubt it, personally.

    PS--the WORLD didn't stop Saddam's atrocities. The United States did. Know what that says to me? That says that the U.S. always pushes its own agenda on the world, not that it tries to "improve" the world. We went against the United Nations on it, for pity's sake. Yeah, that sounds like something a world leader should do--go against the very organization set up to help keep peace in the world because it wanted revenge and oil.

    Oh--but we wouldn't have heard about THAT except that journalists covered it, either.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 10:34 AM
    speechlesstx
    One other reminder here, the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 - which Clinton endorsed and signed - "Declares that it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government."
  • Apr 8, 2010, 11:15 AM
    inthebox

    Genocide? US policy?

    What happened in Rwanda? Now happening in Darfur?


    G&P
  • Apr 8, 2010, 01:00 PM
    Catsmine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Synnen View Post
    We went against the United Nations on it

    We went against France and Germany's wishes. We led 39 other countries in enforcing the UN Resolutions, and the journalists tried very hard to downplay THAT.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 02:17 PM
    tomder55

    Thanks Cats there are some historical inaccuracies in #33 that
    I will address later .That is one less I have to do.
  • Apr 8, 2010, 05:15 PM
    tomder55

    OK then
    Quote:

    And if it was just about Saddam's atrocities, why didn't we get involved until AFTER 9-11? Hmmm?
    The truth is that the United States did in fact enforce "no fly zones" ,that together covered more than 62% of Iraqi territory, to prevent Saddam from using air power ;as he had done previously ,to mass murder Kurds and Shia populations.In that decade our planes enforcing the safe "no fly"zones were repeatedly fired on by Iraqi air defenses .Us and British planes repeatedly had to challenge Iraqi military jets flying in the restricted zones.

    Also under Bill Clinton Iraq was extensively bombed .(I guess it's not a war unless troops are on the ground ) In an operation called "Desert Fox" Clinton waged an intensive 4 day bombing campaign against multiple targets in Iraq. Why did he ? Well because Saddam was violating UN Sanctions . Why did we invade in 2003 ;because Saddam was violating UN Sanctions.

    As Steve correctly points out a joint resolution of Congress in the 1990s declared the official policy of the US government was Iraq regime change.

    Quote:

    Oh, and SPEAKING of 9-11, do you really think that 72% of the public would have wanted us to attack Iraq (again, NOT the country that attacked us on our own soil) if it had not been for JOURNALISTS covering the 9-11 attacks? I doubt it, personally.
    Not quite sure what this means. There was nobody who made a case for the Iraq war because we were directly attacked by Iraq on 9-11.

    I take you back to President Bush's 2002 SOTU Address
    Quote:

    Our nation will continue to be steadfast and patient and persistent in the pursuit of two great objectives. First, we will shut down terrorist camps, disrupt terrorist plans, and bring terrorists to justice. And, second, we must prevent the terrorists and regimes who seek chemical, biological or nuclear weapons from threatening the United States and the world.

    Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax, and nerve gas, and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens -- leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections -- then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world.
    He said I will not wait on events, while dangers gather. I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons.

    President Bush made it clear that the US would no longer accept Saddam's deceptions .President Bush would later make the same case to the UN .The UN responded by giving Saddam a final chance to come clean (Resolution 1441).

    Late Jan 2003 ;UN weapons inspector Hans Blix reported to the UN that
    Quote:

    Unlike South Africa, which decided on its own to eliminate its nuclear weapons and welcomed the inspection as a means of creating confidence in its disarmament, Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it and which it needs to carry out to win the confidence of the world and to live in peace.
    It was only then ,a year after the SOTU address that Bush decided to pull the trigger.But even before the events of 2002 -3 Saddam had 12 years and 15 resolutions since the conclusion of the Gulf War to comply to the demands of the international community .

    We now know that he was emboldened to continued defiance by the very nations in the UN who were the biggest opponents to the Iraq war .He was running a multi-billion bribery scam that went to the top of the UN leadership itself. Perhaps if the UN had stood steadfast in support of the sanctions then Saddam would've been compelled to come clean without the need to go to war against him.

    But because of the Oil for Food regime ,support for the sanctions were crumbling and the US and England were left to themselves to enforce them . The US had an army and a fleet dedicated to enforce UN rules for a decade . No one complained about the expense of that .
    Quote:

    Yeah, that sounds like something a world leader should do--go against the very organization set up to help keep peace in the world because it wanted revenge and oil.
    As stated above it is apparent that it was the nations opposed to the war that had a vested economic benefit in keeping the status quo .They were the ones who were guilty of blood for oil .Iraqi children were being denied food and medicine that Iraqi oil sales were supposed to fund.Instead it went into the pockets of European leaders and UN kleptocrats .As Cats correctly points out it was the US that lead a broad international coalition to defeat Saddam.

    Now I'll ask it again. If it would've been the right thing to preemptively attack Germany to prevent the Holocaust then why wasn't it equally the right thing to prevent Saddam's genocides ?

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