Ask Me Help Desk - Awesome health care Canadian style

Awesome health care Canadian style

A bunch of Canadian Liberal Party thinkers got togther to discuss various issues... a "thinkers conference" . One of the issues they discussed was the state of the national health care program .

The solution to the myriad of problems facing their system ? Well;according to reporting in the 'Montreal Gazette :

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In a morning session on health care the conference was told that Canadians and their governments must face up to some hard facts and have "an adult conversation" about the future of the country's health care system.The advice came from David Dodge, the past governor of the Bank of Canada and former deputy finance minister who said medicare costs will inevitably rise in coming years at a greater rate than government revenues and the country's gross domestic product, and require some unpalatable choices to be made.Choices he suggested include new taxes specifically dedicated for health care or a steady reduction in the scope and quality of services provided by the public health system that would require people to either pay for private care themselves or suffer ever greater wait times for service in the public system."These are stark and unpalatable choices that we face with respect to health care, but there is no magic solution," he said. "We absolutely must have an adult debate about how we deal with this. Finding solutions in this area is extraordinarily difficult, but it is imperative."

Carbon tax a hot topic at Liberals' conference

Ah yes... new taxes isn't it always the way ? Maybe they should listen instead to President Obama who swears that his "magic solution" will cut taxes and reduce the deficit.

Why don't they just use part of the carbon tax to pay for health care and kill many birds with one stone? Think about it, you have extra revenue for health care via the carbon tax. With the exorbitant prices for fuel people will drive less leading to cleaner air and healthier citizens. And with fewer people who can afford to drive there will be fewer doctor visits in an already overburdened system. Either that or Canadians can car pool to the doctor and have group office visits.

They could think about the solution used in New Zealand and add an extra charge to the postage, sort of a stamp tax.

It is not as bad as the media paints it out to be.

What are you going to believe... the truth or your lying eyes ?

You have no idea what your talking about tomber.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

It is not as bad as the media paints it out to be.

Joe, what about Alty who's H&H was so low that we would have given her a transfusion here in the states but she had to wait over 2 weeks for an appointment for a simple procedure and a month for a CT scan?

Both of those procedures would have been done within a week here in the states... most likely immediately with her background.

We know our system is flawed, but you have to admit yours isn't perfect either.

It isn't as important if I know what I 'm talking about . Does David Dodge, the past governor of the Bank of Canada and former deputy finance minister know what he's talking about ?

No, he doesn't either. Just because somebody used to be the government of bank of canada means squat. Or deputy finance minister, means squat.

FORMER, bank of canada, former deputy finance minister.

Does not really make the story true. Also it is also based on opinion.

I am happy with my Canadian Health care, and have had no problems. It all depends on the province as well, on the delivery system of the health care.

I tell you what though I am a proud Canadian and love my Country and for Americans and American interest groups to pick apart our system to scare gullible Americans into believing their system is better is the biggest crock of them all.

J9, personally, everybody has good and bad experiences.

Truth be known, it all depends on the doctors, staff, hospital and where you are.

I can tell you that yes there may be flaws in our system too but I will take Canada health care system over American health care.

Along with that. There has been certain situations , etc... with my family and has been nothing but quick action but that is from doctors who do the care and push for things to get done.

I have seen people go into ER, and would have a CT scan done the very same day. That is fact.

Specialist appointments made immediately and tests done immediately. MRI scans done within a short time and other exams and tests.

But can you afford it ? Sounds like you are going to need deep pocketsfor the government to pick.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

I tell you what though I am a proud Canadian and love my Country and for Americans and American interest groups to pick apart our system to scare gullible Americans into believing their system is better is the biggest crock of them all.

I think you got it in one there JH, there is a an awefull lot of "the grass is greener here" coming from the US on health care and the statistics don't back it up. Every country has its nighmare stories and its successes. I don't want to rain on their parade but it seems to me that if the system wasn't broken someone would not want to reform it.

I think there must be a lot of low self esteem in America because they are always telling the rest of us how good they are.

The problem Clete is that the Canadian system has been touted here by the left as a system we should model our's after .I'm sorry ,when I see government ministers coming here for care and former gvt ministers telling us that unless they get a large cash infusion from the taxpayers then their system will collapse like a house of cards ;then it doesn't exactly reinforce this perception .

I think it is a matter of national pride that is making them myopic to the obvious flaws .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

the problem Clete is that the Canadian system has been touted here by the left as a system we should model our's after .I'm sorry ,when I see government ministers coming here for care and former gvt ministers telling us that unless they get a large cash infusion from the taxpayers then their system will collapse like a house of cards ;then it doesn't exactly reinforce this perception .

I think it is a matter of national pride that is making them myopic to the obvious flaws .

Why are these ministers or former government ministers getting care in the states? Hmmm, so they can get a head of the normal Canadian. Because these ministers makes 300, 000 or more dollars a year and can afford to get ahead of the Normal Canadian and are willing to pay for care to get ahead of the normal Canadian. IT is not necessarily better care or quicker care. These Ministers making so much money off our taxes and putting into their own pockets and using it too treat themselves to care else where. Who is paying for that we are as taxpayers. As far as I am concerned ministers who do that should lose any perks and any entitlement and should not be allowed to be treated any different then any other Canadian and not waste our money for treatment they can and should get here in Canada.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I think it is a matter of national pride that is making them myopic to the obvious flaws .

I think that there is altogether too much focus on flaws and benefits, what has been lost is the basic concept of care and responsibility. Our respective lifestyles that made us more prone to disease and therefore the need of health care. No more do we just suck it up and get on with it. I remember when I had no need of a doctor from year to year but those days are long gone and I am pleased that my government sees it as it's responsibility to ensure that I at least have access to basic health care. Now if I have to pay a small basic charge for enjoying that service, it is not too much to ask and if I want more then there is health insurance, but the idea that we should be allowed a free ride during the short time we are low risk, but expect that the medical services are there waiting for us is a very foolish notion.

What ever happened to the idea of public good or that it is undesirable that society should have large numbers of untreated sick in its midst. This is the twenty first century, are you guys stuck in an eighteenth century time warp over there where you can't think a thought that didn't first pass through the mind of Jefferson and co.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I think that there is altogether too much focus on flaws and benefits, what has been lost is the basic concept of care and responsibility. Our respective lifestyles that made us more prone to disease and therefore the need of health care.

We all should take responsibility for our own health and our own well being. At the same time, I do not feel or think that people purposely run themselves to the ground or not take care of themselves on purpose so they can have the care, and nor do I think people think well if I get sick there will be free care there to take care of me, or us anyway.

My whole family would be out in the streets and bankrupt if we did not have the system we have here in canada. There are certain health care or conditions that need to be treated and it is not about lifestyle or not taking care of ourselves.

So blessed to be in Canada. (;
I honestly do not know what my family would do if we were under the American health care umbrella.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

So blessed to be in Canada. (;
I honestly do not know what my family would do if we were under the American health care umbrella.

Understand where you are coming from JH, I certainly couldn't afford the drug regime my doctor prescribes if I lived in the US

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Our respective lifestyles that made us more prone to disease and therefore the need of health care.

Consider this... the reason we require the additional health care is because health care has become so good and available that people are living longer. Much of the disease being treated are related to simply getting old.

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but the idea that we should be allowed a free ride during the short time we are low risk, but expect that the medical services are there waiting for us is a very foolish notion.

It is hardly a free ride now where young people trying to start a life are expected already in this country to subsidize ,through their tax contributions, the existence of retirees ;many of whom are perfectly capable of a self sufficient existence .

The problem in all the Western nations is that we have expanded the safety net for the truly needy for people who could easily manage without it. A middle class safety net is not required except in a nanny-state.

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My whole family would be out in the streets and bankrupt if we did not have the system we have here in canada. There are certain health care or conditions that need to be treated and it is not about lifestyle or not taking care of ourselves.

You would then find it remarkable that the vast majority of Americans under the current system are not out in the streets and bankrupt even under what Clete mistakenly calls an eighteenth century time warp .

Even the most exaggerated numbers that are thrown out there represents no more than 16% of the US population . The new overhaul addresses at best 4% of the US population .

Surely you aren't telling me that you would fall into a gap in the US that 96% of Americans manage to avoid ? Are you so dependent on the state for your existence ? I always saw the Canadian and the Aussie as someone made of rugged sterner stuff and never before saw them as sheeple.

For the people touting the Canadian system as perfection in exicution... explain the rationing, massive delays for needed procedures... and the fact that YOUR PrimeMinister came HERE to the USA for a Heart procedure rather than deal with the Canadian System, explain the thousands of Canadians that come south to Pay cash for things they can't get under the Canadian System that they NEED.

Sorry, but if you need something NOW... you need it NOW. Sorry you have Cancer, we might be able to schedule you in, say in about 8-12 months from now... how is that... eh?

Sorry, The Canadian system along with the European system leave a LOT to be desired from the perspective of someone that needs treatment NOW or they risk death.

I've not been in a Canadian system... But I have inlaws that are... I've seen the European system first hand, and have many in-laws and friends who have as well, and many that died in it from gross stupidity build into the system.

99% of the people that tout someone else's system over our own... have never seen it for themselves... they only believe propaganda spewed by others who have never seen it either, or choose to spread lies about how good it is.

Now our system isn't perfect... but thinning the population by rationing needed care when its needed isn't in the publics interest.

You can't treat needed emergency care like elective surgery. Cancer, or Heart problems are NOT as low priority as boob jobs. Emergency care is needed NOW... not rescheduled 6 months in the future.. Or Sorry, we hit our quota for emergencies this month... please go home and bleed/ die at your own residence please.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

So blessed to be in Canada. (;
I honestly do not know what my family would do if we were under the American health care umbrella.

I hear you brother. I echo your sentiments.:)

So, you love the Canadian system so much... move to Canada.

But you forfit your right to return here to our system when you find out what its really like.

But oh... you've never actually seen socialized medicine first hand have you? I've going to bet not... and likely never even traveled abroad and certainly never lived where they have it for any amount of time.

Spead more propaganda about a system you know absolutely nothing about... like half of congress is doing... hell the speaker of the House never even read the Bill...

She said... "We need to vote for this bill so you can find out whats in it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoE1R-xH5To Got her on video... of course the DNC will claim she never said it.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

So, you love the Canadian system so much....move to Canada.

I'm here now!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I'm here now!

Then exactly why in the hell are you arguing about why WE need the crappy system you have.

I don't have to wait for anything like you do in many cases. WE don't ration care... medicine, or make people wait absurd ammounts of time for treatment.

And your own leaders admit the Canadian system is going to collapse without massive influxes of money.

Don't get me wrong.. Canada isn't a bad place and you have plenty of nice people... but conversely there are things I really dislike about it.

Actually I have several In-laws in Montreal, I get my input from their experiences under the Canadian system. They aren't happy with it but lack the Money to come south and pay cash. I've only traveled the far eastern part of Canada, I was particularly enamored with Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island was beautiful but a tad rural for my tastes.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Surely you aren't telling me that you would fall into a gap in the US that 96% of Americans manage to avoid ?

In a logical world Obamacare would be considered major overkill considering those numbers. But then some of us have known all along it was never about providing health care for those who need it.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

You would then find it remarkable that the vast majority of Americans under the current system are not out in the streets and bankrupt even under what Clete mistakenly calls an eighteenth century time warp .

Even the most exagerated numbers that are thrown out there represents no more than 16% of the US population . The new overhaul addresses at best 4% of the US population .

Surely you aren't telling me that you would fall into a gap in the US that 96% of Americans manage to avoid ? Are you so dependent on the state for your existance ? I always saw the Canadian and the Aussie as someone made of rugged sterner stuff and never before saw them as sheeple.

Tom let's address your misquoting of my words, the eighteenth century time wrap refers not to present day health care but the idea that men in the eighteenth century had a ability to define the circumstances that twenty first century man should live under and that therefore a government should not legislate for the welfare of its citizens

16% of a population is a significant number, you are suggesting that you didn't mind if 16% of your population had the potential to be bankrupted by your existing system and that it is even all right if 4% remain at risk just so long as you don't have to help out a little.

I can't speak for Canadians but Australians are made of sterner stuff, in fact so much so that we don't allow our citizens to be placed at risk unnecessarily, we don't shirk our responsibilities to our fellow citizens, but then our founders had a slightly different ethic and a century of hindsight when they founded our Commonwealth, they took the word seriously and our governments have taken it seriously ever since therefore we are not sheeple following blindly after long lost concepts but brumbys running free in the high country of public responsibility

Your safety net doesn't let anyone through ? I find that difficult to believe .The inherent inefficiency of a bureaucracy tells me that is probably not true.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

your safety net doesn't let anyone through ? I find that difficult to believe .The inherent inefficiency of a bureaucracy tells me that is probably not true.

Perhaps we don't suffer from the same level of inefficiency in bureaucracy, not to say some parts of it aren't inefficient, but we actually do have a safety net on top of the coverage so that when expenses are excessive there is help available, the only people who can fall through the cracks are those who want to be rugged individualists and pay for it themselves
Medicare Safety Net - Medicare Australia
Department of Health and Ageing - Pharmaceutical Benefits Safety Net Arrangements

You see Tom there is a lot to be said for a single payer option, although our system isn't entirely single payer because there is insurance and there may be a gap payment but Medicare picks up most of the tab and either pays the doctor or hospital directly or rebates the cost on presentation of the bill. The insurance companies are free to compete, the doctors are free to compete and the patient gets on with being treated without the hassle

Montreal is a small city in Quebec. It is not all of canada. So your argument falls flat Tom.

I don't think the Libz have a chance of getting elected. They tried running on a carbon tax last time and fell flat on their face. The new leader isn't much more popular and the Tories are much more in tune with average Canadian's views on issues such as law and order and taxes.

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Originally Posted by earl237

I don't think the Libz have a chance of getting elected. They tried running on a carbon tax last time and fell flat on their face. The new leader isn't much more popular and the Tories are much more in tune with average Canadian's views on issues such as law and order and taxes.

Very true.

Personally I don't know a lot about Canadian healthcare except what you see in the TV ads. And we should all know by now that if it's in a TV ad, it's probably a lie or some exaggerated far-stretched version of the truth.

Does this mean I support Obama, God no! I have spoken with a friend who used to live in England and she loves the universal healthcare system there. But how do they pay for it? 17.5% sales tax!

Would rather pay higher taxes.. Then worry about not having health care coverage.

17.5% might not seem like a lot for a pack of gum or a pair of shoes, but just think about buying a car! 17.5% on a $20k vehicle is $3500! Taxes on a $300k home... $52,500!!

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Originally Posted by logan176

Does this mean I support Obama, God no! I have spoken with a friend who used to live in England and she loves the universal healthcare system there. But how do they pay for it? 17.5% sales tax!

All these things are relative, you have to look at the entire tax system and what they get in return. I could complain that a person in the US is taxed less than I am if I just look at the rates but then I don't need to buy expensive health insurance, but actually a person in the US isn't taxed less than I am because I haven't paid income tax in years. This doesn't mean I'm not taxed

That is England, not Canada. Plus each province has different tax rates.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

Would rather pay higher taxes.. Then worry about not having health care coverage.

So.. you would rather Politicians determine if you get a treatment or not, rather than your Doctor?

Incidentally, can you name a single Federal agency that is efficient, responsive. And isn't a black hole for tax dollars. And can you name a federal agency that MAKES more money than they cost?

Sorry, I've spent an inordinate amount of time in and around Government entities and fascilities the last 25 years. Nobody that has seen what I have seen can look at ANY of them as being capable of fixing their own problems much less everyone else's too.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

So..you would rather Politicians determine if you get a treatment or not, rather than your Doctor?

I can say with 100% certainty that you have no idea how our system operates.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I can say with 100% certainty that you have no idea how our system operates.

SO your government has NOTHING to do with your health care system... and they don't impose any rationing at all, has NOTHING at all to do with who works in any part of it... yet SOMEHOW its nationalized and taxed by the Canadian Government, is that what the Canadian News tells you?

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Originally Posted by smoothy

SO your government has NOTHING to do with your health care system....

But that's not what you wrote is it. Here you chose to write something else and make that the argument. One cannot continue discussions with you if you continuously do this.