Ho Ho Ho. Merry Christmas. Looks like Bammy's health care bill is going to be rammed through on Xmas Eve no less when every Senator and Congressman should be at home with their families. Now I know why the bill was pushed back a few weeks ago. It was so it could be passed in the middle of the night (figuratively) while no one was looking or caring as everyone was too busy with the Holidays. Shame, shame on the folks in Washington, DC for this atrocity.

Wonder just how many "add-ons" will be in this bill that have absolutely nothing to do with Health Care. Probably a lot.

Get ready to be ordered to take flu shots, take handfuls of pills you don't need, and have your children's health ruined along the way. Don't believe me. Just watch in horror at all the jolly Christmas presents the American people are going to enjoy for many years to come. This is definitely the gift that keeps on giving (or will keep on giving).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

Don't believe me.

---

We don't. ;)

Maybe if there wasn't a Republican filibuster it would have concluded before the holidays.
Don't Just Reform Health Care, Reform the Senate

Quote:

---

Of the 40 weeks that the Senate has been in session, Republicans have employed filibusters to prevent action on critical measures -- especially health-care reform legislation -- in 36.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

We don't. ;)

Maybe if there wasn't a Republican filibuster it would have concluded before the holidays.
Don't Just Reform Health Care, Reform the Senate

---

At least someone was trying to block this monstrous disaster. Fact is, Harry Reid controls the schedule and only Harry Reid.

Nope, the fact that the debate lasted until Christmas is solely the Republicans doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Nope, the fact that the debate lasted until Christmas is solely the Republicans doing.

---

Blah, blah blah. Is this all you have to say NK? At this point WHO cares WHO delayed this bill. Unlike you Canadians we cannot vote out of office folks we don't like representing us in Congress or the House of Representatives or the President of the country until the next election comes around. We have to deal with these lameo's day in and day out until we can legally vote them out regardless of how bad they are with scandals, money laundering, and other sundry crimes they commit day in and day out all while "representing" us in Washington DC. And that goes for folks on both sides of the aisle as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Nope, the fact that the debate lasted until Christmas is solely the Republicans doing.

---

Nice spin, NK, but not true.

NK sounds like Harkin who blamed Republicans for the need to wake up Robert Sheets Byrd so he could vote.

Or like Sheldon Whitehouse, who blamed it on those racists, birthers and other fanatics ...

Quote:

---

They are desperate to break this president. They have ardent supporters who are nearly hysterical at the very election of President Barack Obama. The birthers, the fanatics, the people running around in right-wing militia and Aryan support groups, it is unbearable to them that President Barack Obama should exist. That is one powerful reason. It is not the only one.”

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Or like Sheldon Whitehouse, who blamed it on those racists, birthers and other fanatics ...

---

Whitehouse is correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

Wonder just how many "add-ons" will be in this bill that have absolutely nothing to do with Health Care. Probably a lot.

---

Yes there is probably a lot of unnecessary spending stapled to it, after all how does it take a thousand pages to explain how to fund a few doctors? What amazes me is the lack of transparency in this process

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Whitehouse is correct.

---

So you agree with Whitehouse, who denied his remarks, that opponents to Obamacare are hysterical birthers, Aryans, right-wing militia members, fanatics who find it "unbearable to them that President Barack Obama should exist?"

Which of those categories do I fall in?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So you agree with Whitehouse, who denied his remarks, that opponents to Obamacare are hysterical birthers, Aryans, right-wing militia members, fanatics who find it "unbearable to them that President Barack Obama should exist?"

Which of those categories do I fall in?

---

fanatic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

fanatic

---

How so?

Why is it that most American's Don't want this bill but if we object we are called nutcases, fanatics, militants, racists, etc. Just because We, the People, don't want this is there really a reason to jam this down our throats? NO!

It's basically going to be an even bigger scam than the TARP money was. Now the insurance companies are going to be raking in billions each year more than they already have. Just look at their stock market increases since September to see they have all skyrocketed! This is just another bail out but to the rich insurance companies. Courtesy of the US taxpayers.

Whitehouse is an idiot who talks out of both sides of his mouth. He needs to get his own comedy TV show.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

NK sounds like Harkin who blamed Republicans for the need to wake up Robert Sheets Byrd so he could vote.

---

I guess they'll have to really bury Robert Byrd one day. He's been dead for years between the ears but as long as he's still breathing I guess he's able to vote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

Yes there is probably a lot of unnecessary spending stapled to it, afterall how does it take a thousand pages to explain how to fund a few doctors? What amazes me is the lack of transparency in this process

---

You don't get it. It has nothing to do with "funding a few doctors". It has everything to do with the add ons to this bill. Like the part where you are not allowed to own a gun anymore. Yep. They're taking that one onto this "bill". They read the 1,000 page bill in open debate one day but they did not read all the add ons to this bill. That is where the snake in the grass gets deadly here, Para, not just the "pay for doctors" stuff.

Remember the Patriot Act had so many hidden add on laws that normal people still have no idea just what was actually added on in this miscarrage of legislature. Also FEMA is a great way to make more laws that inhibit our rights or out and out take away our rights. The Patriot Act destroyed half of our Bill of Rights. Homeland Security is just a great way to funnel or launder money through.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

Why is it that most American's DONT want this bill

---

Hello twink:

Americans don't want this bill because the Republicans won the argument. Everybody understands what a death panel is, and nobody understands what a public option is.

Americans DO want health care reform, though, but this isn't it.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

You don't get it. It has nothing to do with "funding a few doctors". It has everything to do with the add ons to this bill. Like the part where you are not allowed to own a gun anymore. Yep. They're taking that one onto this "bill". They read the 1,000 page bill in open debate one day but they did not read all the add ons to this bill. That is where the snake in the grass gets deadly here, Para, not just the "pay for doctors" stuff.

Remember the Patriot Act had so many hidden add on laws that normal people still have no idea just what was actually added on in this miscarrage of legislature. Also FEMA is a great way to make more laws that inhibit our rights or out and out take away our rights. The Patriot Act destroyed half of our Bill of Rights. Homeland Security is just a great way to funnel or launder money through.

---

Well why don't you tell us twinkie what else is stapled on to it, you see that sort of thing isn't allowed here, full transparency, they can do a deal to get a bill passed but the legislation has to travel the regular path on its own which means sometimes they renig on the deal if they don't like the detail. They reniged on the Alcopop tax and the Emissions Trading Scheme. The ETS was stapled to the Emissions Target Bill but couldn't get up that way either. Our deals are more about changing the bill to pass it than fannoogling some funding for a boondoggle. Opportunism is alive and well and living in the US. We don't have a Bill of Rights they can destroy and our common law rights work just fine, but gun law reform over there is long overdue, pity they had to be sneaky about it. We have wonderful laws like outlawing the bikie gangs and managing the income of the dole bludgers and taxing poker machines and returning water to rivers. I'm sure your human rights lawyers would have people tied up in courts for centuries

Our legislative process is more like making sausage after it has been digested. Harry Reid actually bragged about it yesterday and chided the Senators from States that did not come to him to make special deals.

Business as ususal ? You betcha ! But the President campaigned on a promise of changing business as ususal . He said the bill would be posted on line for 72 hrs before any votes were made.

Yesterday they broke a filibuster on a 800 something page so called "manager's amendment" that no one saw until it was read on the floor . The cloture vote today will be on what has been a "shell bill"(none of the details actually in the bill) because the actual bill could not be constructed until after the CBO told them the costs . The CBO calculated the costs based on some assumptions that may or may not be real ;and the fact that taxes to pay for the bill will start collecting immediately ;but benefits won't kick in until around 2014.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

and the fact that taxes to pay for the bill will start collecting immediately ;but benefits won't kick in until around 2014.

---

That lie was busted by Sen. Franken.

Dianne Sawyer of ABC told me otherwise yesterday.

Quote:

---

Will taxes go up?
In some cases, yes. Some higher-wage people would pay higher payroll taxes.
Also, insurance companies that offer the most expensive plans -- the so-called "Cadillac plans" -- will be taxed. And they may pass those taxes on to employers and employees...or cut the benefits.
Finally, health industries - like device makers and hospitals - would pay higher taxes, too... And they may pass those costs onto you.
If I'm uninsured now, how soon do I get the help to buy health insurance?
There's a big lag time. Under the House bill: 2013. And, under the Senate bill, not until 2014.

---

Senate Health Care Bill: Frequently Asked Questions - ABC News

Here is Sen. Thune's rebuttal to the comic Senator .

Quote:

---

But I do want to make an observation with regard to the discussion held earlier today because a Member from the other side--the Senator from Minnesota--had indicated that he thought this chart was somehow inaccurate or misleading, and I want to point out again, Madam President, that the chart is very accurate. In fact, the taxes in the bill begin 18 days from now, on January 1 of next year. January 1, 2010, is when the taxes in this bill begin.

In fact, almost $72 billion of taxes will have been collected before the benefits that start to kick in will be paid out--the premium subsidies that are going to support the exchanges, that are supposedly going to help those who don't have insurance get access to it. That is 1,479 days from now.

The Senator from Minnesota got up and said, and I quote: We are entitled to our own opinions; we are not entitled to our own facts. The fact is, benefits kick in on day one. The large majority of benefits kick in on day one, and we shouldn't be standing up here with charts that say the exact opposite.

Well, Madam President, it is not me saying this; it is the Congressional Budget Office. The Congressional Budget Office has said that 99 percent of the coverage spending in this bill doesn't kick in until January 1, 2014--1,479 days from now.

Now, I ask my colleagues, and most Americans around this country: Do you think it is fair to construct a bill that in order to understate its total cost starts raising taxes in 18 days, but doesn't start delivering 99 percent of the coverage benefits until 1,479 days from now?

If the other side wants to have an argument about whether 99 percent of the coverage benefits kick in in the year 2014 or 100 percent, I am happy to have that argument. The point is simply this: Taxes start 18 days from now--tax increases--so that $72 billion in taxes will have been imposed upon the American people, and the benefits 1,479 days from now.

So, Madam President, I want to make that point and refute the argument that was made by the Senator from Minnesota that a large majority of benefits kick in on day one. Ninety-nine percent of the benefits don't kick in until later.

---

Text From the Congressional RecordView Appearance | C-SPAN Congressional Chronicle, Created by Cable. Offered as a Public Service.

Here's Franken's dismanthling of t\Thune's lies:
Franken slams GOP on Senate floor: ‘You’re not entitled to your own facts’ | Raw Story




You make fun of Franken but he's the biggest breath of fresh air in your sordid politics.

Thunes rebuttal makes Stewart Smalley's rants irrelevant pablum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You make fun of Franken but he's the biggest breath of fresh air in your sordid politics.

---

LOL, this about the freshman Senator who broke with tradition by denying Lieberman a couple of extra minutes to talk? Franken must be the only deluded individual in the country that doesn't get how this bill works, and you believe him. Btw, I'm still waiting for you to explain to the world how I'm a fanatic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Btw, I'm still waiting for you to explain to the world how I'm a fanatic.

---

By your postng history here. You didn't come here to help anyone with any question. You came here simply to post daily about about awful you believe those are who are of a different political ideology than you. That's ALL you do here.

And yes, I do like Franken a lot. Not just for the Lieberman thing or calling Thule but for the fact that he seems to care about the process and people and does not appear to be in any corporations pocket.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

Thunes rebuttal makes Stewart Smalley's rants irrelevent pablum.

---

Such immature posts.

Hello again, twink:

I like the word RAMMED, because that's exactly what that little dweeb, the inoffensive, quite guy Senator from Nevada did.

If the bill failed, I was prepared to jump all over Obama for not using strong arm tactics. I was going to yell at Rahm Emanual for not doing it, and that's supposedly his speciality...

I say that, because that's how LBJ got his bills passed, and that's what I wanted Obama to do... I didn't know he had a Harry Reid.

Now, I like you, don't like the horse trading that went on. If it were me, I wouldn't compromise... But, the art of politics IS compromise, and that's how bills are passed... Yes, even REPUBLICAN bills, and if you say it isn't, I'm going to call you out.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

By your postng history here.You didn't come here to help anyone with any question.

---

I see, warning people about their withholding isn't helpful. Telling people what's in a disastrous health care bill isn't helpful. Suggesting others not adhere to legalistic church doctrines isn't helpful? Telling people that the message of Christianity is "God loves you" (which you agreed with by the way) isn't helpful? But calling me a fanatic is?

Quote:

---

You came here simply to post daily about about awful you believe those are who are of a different political ideology than you. That's ALL you do here.

---

This is the "current events" area of "member discussions." What type of discussion do you as the self-appointed board moderator approve of? Oh that's right, accusing me of "making sh!t up," that I buy up incorrect information, that I'm "moving dangerously close to Glen Beck style of "opinionating" and that I base my opinions on "a pile of steaming crap." What is it again exactly you do here?

I am unabashedly conservative. That doesn't make me a "fanatic," it means I have principles I stand for. Don't you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

what is it again exactly you do here?

---

Attachment 27609

Where IN WRITING in this bill does it state when benefits start and when do the taxes begin? Talk is cheap.

Was it not Reid that said one or 2 people die every 10 minutes due to a lack of health insurance? If this bill's start is 2014, that is approximately 157,000 to 315,000 people who will die. That is unconscionable. Remember, the Dems have the majority, so why do they still have to use hundreds of millions of TAXPAYOR dollars to buy off certain Dem votes for this bill?

If this bill's purported health reform is so good, why does it not sell itself?


G&P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inthebox

Was it not Reid that said one or 2 people die every 10 minutes due to a lack of health insurance? If this bill's start is 2014, that is approximately 157,000 to 315,000 people who will die. That is unconscionable.

---

The stats on people dying is with the current status quo.

So where in writing is this bill's proposed start date? What is the rush if it is 2014?

G&P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, twink:

I like the word RAMMED, because that's exactly what that little dweeb, the inoffensive, quite guy Senator from Nevada did.

If the bill failed, I was prepared to jump all over Obama for not using strong arm tactics. I was gonna yell at Rahm Emanual for not doing it, and that's supposedly his speciality...

I say that, because that's how LBJ got his bills passed, and that's what I wanted Obama to do... I didn't know he had a Harry Reid.

Now, I like you, don't like the horse trading that went on. If it were me, I wouldn't compromise... But, the art of politics IS compromise, and that's how bills are passed... Yes, even REPUBLICAN bills, and if you say it isn't, I'm gonna call you out.

excon

---

Well, Pilgrim, them's fighting words... but I'm not fighting, tee hee. Wrong thread.

Anyway, this bill IS going to be passed and the American people don't want it. The reason I said RAMMED is because that's exactly what is happening. It's gotten on a locomotive and is literally running all over the American people like a freight train with 1,000 cars on it.

The only thing "good" about it is hopefully going to nip those baby poopers in the bud. Watching the TV shows "18 Kids and Counting" and "20 Duggers in 20 Years" are enough to make a sane person puke. Although China did take it a little too far in the old child policy maybe American can cut back on too many kids in one family.

The only thing I'm not happy about is they really didn't spell out just how much all this "health care" is going to cost per month. Does anyone know anything about the cost to us, the little people who pay taxes?

I disagree about the art of politics though. It's not compromise that gets bills passed. It's green as in MONEY but pssssst don't tell Exie know this as he thinks it's about being polite and making compromises. It's really cold, hard cash with a capital C courtesy of the wonderful lobbyists and their deep, deep pockets.

Twink
Most of our entitlement program are ponzi schemes designed to screw the young and transfer their income to the geezers . Restrictions on the number of children allowed per family only work to hasten the collapse of the program.

The art of compromise... as Mark twain said :

Those that respect the law and love sausage should watch neither being made

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

Well why don't you tell us twinkie what else is stapled on to it, you see that sort of thing isn't allowed here, full transparency, they can do a deal to get a bill passed but the legislation has to travel the regular path on its own which means sometimes they renig on the deal if they don't like the detail. They reniged on the Alcopop tax and the Emissions Trading Scheme. The ETS was stapled to the Emissions Target Bill but couldn't get up that way either. Our deals are more about changing the bill to pass it than fannoogling some funding for a boondoggle. Opportunism is alive and well and living in the US. We don't have a Bill of Rights they can destroy and our common law rights work just fine, but gun law reform over there is long overdue, pity they had to be sneaky about it. We have wonderfull laws like outlawing the bikie gangs and managing the income of the dole bludgers and taxing poker machines and returning water to rivers. I'm sure your human rights lawyers would have people tied up in courts for centuries

---

Para - If I knew every single add on tack on to this "bill" I'd probably be included in a small handful of folks who actually DO know all the add ons, etc.

Also just what the blue blazes is "dole bludgers"? Never heard the term before. Sometimes you need to remember not everyone here speaks Aussie fluently.

Have you ever been to the USA and actually lived here and watched the local TV news for a good year or more and listen to all the drivel they are trying to shove down the people's throats on a daily basis? Probably not. Even reading the local newspapers here leave a lot to be desired. In the local TV news there is about 5 minutes of world and national news, 20 minutes of national sports and local sports, 10 minutes of weather, and 30 minutes of commercials - all in a one hour "local" new hour. Other than "sound bites" of 15 seconds or less there is not much "national news" actually being reported locally to the populace. Even the national news that supposedly concentrates on national and world news leaves a lot to be desired as well.

I don't watch the local, national newscasts unless I want to see what for disinformation is being fed to the populace. I'd rather watch the Weather channel as it's much more entertaining watching the same weather pattern on the map for an hour or more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inthebox

Where IN WRITING in this bill does it state when benefits start and when do the taxes begin? Talk is cheap.

Was it not Reid that said one or 2 people die every 10 minutes due to a lack of health insurance? If this bill's start is 2014, that is approximately 157,000 to 315,000 people who will die. That is unconscionable. Remember, the Dems have the majority, so why do they still have to use hundreds of millions of TAXPAYOR dollars to buy off certain Dem votes for this bill?

If this bill's purported health reform is so good, why does it not sell itself?


G&P

---

I agree with you. This bill is NOT GOOD on it's face and never will be - at least not the way they are crafting and pushing it now.

This whole health care scam is almost a repeat of the TARP scandal. First it started with a blank piece of paper that was supposed to be approved with no strings attached and the sky's the limit. Then it had to be fattened up with a few hundred pages and when that was not adequate it was further fattened up until it was so fat that no one was able to read it let alone comprehend it in the 5 seconds it was available by Congress to be read. No, it had to be immediately passed sight unseen or horrors the bankers would go broke! And what happened once it was passed? The bankers didn't go broke, everyone else went broke as the bankers refused to make new loans.

I see history repeating itself in the health care bill.

And yes, Tom, I agree with your assessment of the Ponzi schemes bilking the younger folks in favor of the older folks.

The Mayo Clinic, that facility praised by Obama as a model health care provider, is dropping Medicare patients at an Arizona clinic:

Quote:

---

The Mayo Clinic, praised by President Barack Obama as a national model for efficient health care, will stop accepting Medicare patients as of tomorrow at one of its primary-care clinics in Arizona, saying the U.S. government pays too little.

More than 3,000 patients eligible for Medicare, the government’s largest health-insurance program, will be forced to pay cash if they want to continue seeing their doctors at a Mayo family clinic in Glendale, northwest of Phoenix, said Michael Yardley, a Mayo spokesman. The decision, which Yardley called a two-year pilot project, won’t affect other Mayo facilities in Arizona, Florida and Minnesota.

Obama in June cited the nonprofit Rochester, Minnesota-based Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio for offering “the highest quality care at costs well below the national norm.” Mayo’s move to drop Medicare patients may be copied by family doctors, some of whom have stopped accepting new patients from the program, said Lori Heim, president of the American Academy of Family Physicians, in a telephone interview yesterday.

“Many physicians have said, ‘I simply cannot afford to keep taking care of Medicare patients,’” said Heim, a family doctor who practices in Laurinburg, North Carolina. “If you truly know your business costs and you are losing money, it doesn’t make sense to do more of it.”

Medicare Loss

The Mayo organization had 3,700 staff physicians and scientists and treated 526,000 patients in 2008. It lost $840 million last year on Medicare, the government’s health program for the disabled and those 65 and older, Mayo spokeswoman Lynn Closway said.

Mayo’s hospital and four clinics in Arizona, including the Glendale facility, lost $120 million on Medicare patients last year, Yardley said. The program’s payments cover about 50 percent of the cost of treating elderly primary-care patients at the Glendale clinic, he said.

“We firmly believe that Medicare needs to be reformed,” Yardley said in a Dec. 23 e-mail. “It has been true for many years that Medicare payments no longer reflect the increasing cost of providing services for patients.”

---

How many more will follow Mayo's lead and cut their losses while they can before Obamacare kicks in? Mayo said Medicare only covers half the cost of treating elderly patients in that facility, what's going to happen after Obama cuts billions more out of Medicare payments while expanding the program?

Hey, Twink,

Not disagreeing with you, but watch Fox Cable news and read National Review. Refreshing!

In my providers list, most all of the PCP's will not accept any new Medicare patients.

This does not bode well for people who pay their premiums only to find that they cannot use their insurance anywhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

.

Get ready to be ordered to take flu shots, take handfuls of pills you don't need.

---

How can 'they' order you to take flu shots ?

Tick