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Senator Nick Xenophon says Scientology is 'a criminal organisation' | National News | News.com.au
The man has balls of steel. He's right of course. It'll be interesting to see how this develops. France and Germany have already convicted it of fraud. More issues here: Scientology controversies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What are your thoughts on this "religion"?
In the catholic church they have transubstantiation that turns bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus! So how is that less crazy then thinking aliens are the saviors. I say if you going to call Scientology a criminal org why not call all the other religions the same. Well unless they prove that BS is real.
Spit, I think the issue here is the illegal activities of the 'church' and its members, not how crazy they are - which is virtually undisputed among non-Scientologists.
Because I don't have to pay any money to be a Christian. You won't get into a Scientological (?) church if you don't have cash.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
I'm sure we all can agree capitalizing off people's emotions is just wrong. Reminds of history class when we learned about the sale of indulgences.
I don't like anything about Scientology. But they are unfairly persecuted . However ;if there is evidence of forced imprisonment, coerced abortions, embezzlement of church funds, physical violence, intimidation and blackmail ;then they should indeed be investigated and charged . Just as us Catholics support the prosecution of predatory priests and their enabling Bishops ,so should followers of Scientology be concerned over these activities.
I think they are fairly persecuted. How do you see it otherwise?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Hello NK:
Scientology, like Islam, Christianity, or even Catholicism isn't to blame for the actions of a few of its members.
Scientology, as an organisation, doesn't do that stuff.
excon
The problem with Scientology isn't with just a few members, it's with the way the "religion" is set up from the top down. Read the second link in my OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Edit to add: what did you mean by "that stuff"?
I remember being a kid in catholic school. At the beginning of every year we would get our "offering" envelops. They would have our name on it and every envelop had a date. Man if you missed one Sunday with out giving your "offering" in that specific envelop they would belittle you in front of your entire class.
Plus when my brother asked me to be the god father of his kid I had to join a different catholic church and give them an "offering" of at least $50. And funny enough now every month I get "offering" envelops with my name and the specific date. I see no difference.
Hello again, NK:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
You can argue whether it's a religion or not, or whether it's entitled to a tax exemption, but I submit that as an organisation, it does not forcibly imprison, coerce abortions, embezzle from the church, do physical violence upon, intimidate and/or blackmail people, which is what they're accused of.
excon
I see...
Are you in any affiliated with them?
Typical ankle biting . Excon gave you a fair response .
Hello again, NK:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I don't carry water for anybody, and I don't "affiliate". They're not criminals because they, as an organisation, don't commit crimes.
If you're asking whether I know about them beyond the cursory, the answer is yes. You shouldn't draw any conclusions about that, however. I happen to know a lot of stuff
excon
So all those websites, videos, court cases, they are all made up?
Strength in their numbers: More Church of Scientology defectors come forward with accounts of abuse - St. Petersburg Times
Quote:
They are stepping forward — from Dallas and Denver, Portland, Las Vegas, Montana — talking about what happened, to them and their friends, during their years in the Church of Scientology.
Now their stories have prompted other former Scientology veterans to go public about physical and mental abuses they say they witnessed and endured.
Hello again, NK:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Oh, they're hated, all right, but that doesn't make them criminals.
Do you remember the Moonies? Do you remember how badly they were vilified? They haven't changed. It just so happens that the Rev. Moon is a neocon and gives away lot of money. Maybe the Scientologists should have tried that.
excon
So people like John Travolta and Tom Cruise and hundreds of other notable members were coerced into joining and are being abused as members ? Not likely .
No, they are the "celebrities" that help to raise the awareness.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Ex, most religions don't copyright their message and charge large sums to move up the hierarchy. Most religions attempt to spead their message to as many as possible. The COS has gone as far to copyright the message and sue those who infringe.
Remember:
Quote:
You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion. - L. Ron Hubbard, 1948
Hello again, NK:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Ok, this is the right argument. I agree with you. They are NOT a religion. That doesn't make 'em criminals.
excon
I believe they are:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Quote:
Critics also allege that the Church uses litigation as a cover for intimidation tactics, such as investigating the criminal records of opponents (or lack thereof) and subjecting them to surveillance and invasive inquiries, both to discourage further criticism and to ensure the opponent's unwillingness to fight the lawsuit. A policy letter by L. Ron Hubbard, distributed in early 1966, says:
This is correct procedure: (1) Spot who is attacking us.(2) Start investigating them promptly for FELONIES or worse using own professionals, not outside agencies.(3) Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them.(4) Start feeding lurid, blood sex crime actual evidence on the attackers to the press. Don't ever tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way.[17] Opponents of Scientology cite this passage, among others (such as the widely documented Fair Game doctrine), to support their contentions that the church uses smear tactics to augment the effectiveness of legal threats.
Hello again, NK:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I said they were hated. I didn't say that they didn't deserve it. For the very reasons you point out, they are a tough organisation dedicated to preserving their own and making lots of money. Sounds like your average corporation.
I still don't see any criminal activity. I'm willing to be wrong, though. As I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. Let's see if they're convicted.
excon
There are many court cases: Scientology and the legal system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Looks like it's reached the highest part of their parliament:
Scientology faces allegations of torture in Australia | World news | guardian.co.uk
Quote:
Xenophon said he had received letters from many more former church members who were too afraid to talk to authorities.
The letter from Aaron Saxton claimed he had assisted in the forced confinement and torture of a female church member who was kept under house arrest, Xenophon told the Senate. Saxton also said he was involved in coercing female followers to have abortions to keep followers loyal to the organisation and to allow them to keep working for it.
"Aaron says women who fell pregnant were taken to offices and bullied to have an abortion. If they refused, they faced demotion and hard labour," Xenophon said. "Aaron says one staff member used a coat hanger and self-aborted her child for fear of punishment.".
One letter from a former executive director of the Sydney branch of the church, Carmel Underwood, said that when she fell pregnant she was put under extreme pressure to have an abortion.
"Carmel says she also witnessed a young girl who had been molested by her father being coached as to what she should say to investigating authorities in order to keep the crimes secret," Xenophon said.
Anna and Dean Detheridge from Sydney, who spent 17 years on church staff, said they were "subjected to physical and mental abuse during their time with the organisation", according to the parliamentary statement.
"Anna and Dean also provided evidence where information they and others have revealed to the church have been used to blackmail and control. They also provided more information about coerced abortions," Xenophon said.
Don't compare the need to stay in the game with bravery. Xenophon is an independent Senator and his remarks were made behind the barrier of parliamentary privilege. He cannot be sued as Scientology likes to do to silence its critics. This gets him in the game as a concerned politician with evidence of wrong doing to presentQuote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Scientology is about as dangerous a cult can be. It mucks with the mind of its followers whilst extracting large amounts of cash in the process
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