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You can't make this stuff up!!
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THE National Health Service has spent £1.5m paying for hundreds of its staff to have private health treatment so they can leapfrog their own waiting lists.
More than 3,000 staff, including doctors and nurses, have gone private at the taxpayers’ expense in the past three years because the queues at the clinics and hospitals where they work are too long.
You do realise that the NHS system is a free service, and you can still take out insurance, so I really love seeing people take the mick out of a system that at least offers medical care to all people, and not just the fortunate, Land of the Free and the Brave my a@@
Most companies offers private medical as a benefit, so why is the NHS any different?
Why would they require services above the vaunted "free care " ? Why would there be a need for the perk ? This reminds me of the hypocrites in Congress trying to shove us into a 'one size fits all 'plan while they have every intention of keeping their own gold plated plans.
Problem is, Phlanx, as I have pointed out, your system offers medical INSURANCE to everyone, but it doesn't offer medical CARE to everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by phlanx
Shall I post the articles about the UK health system again? I've got a whole bunch of them if you'd like. They make it clear that while the COSTS of health care are covered for everyone, the actual receipt of CARE is somewhat less universal than you make it out to be.
But more importantly why would you support a system in which the very people who implement that system don't want to be a part of that system? If it ain't good enough for a government bureaucrat, it shouldn't be good enough for you and your family. Why would you support a system in which that is NOT true?
At least here in the USA, we get what we pay for. If you want a higher level of care, you have to pay more money. How much more than you is that government bureacrat paying in order to get private health care? And if he isn't paying more than you are and he's getting better service than you are, doesn't that bother you? Especially since it's YOUR tax dollars (or pounds) that are paying for that higher level of service. Maybe if you got to keep those tax dollars that are paying for that other person's higher level of service, YOU would be able to afford that higher level of service for yourself.
In other words, your government is stealing YOUR ability to purchase better care and giving it to someone else just because that person works for the government and you don't.
That doesn't bother you? It would bother me. You see that as a just and fair system? Or perhaps you can afford private health care anyway, so it doesn't bother you so much. But I'll bet there are other tax payers in the UK who aren't able to afford private health care that would be able to do so if they weren't taxed as much so that some government bureaucrat could get private health care.
Elliot
Is it really free? Or is like here - medicare taxes, mediacaid taxes, then when you qualify , you still have to pay a monthly premiums.Quote:
Originally Posted by phlanx
The link reminds me how some that want government healthcare for all, and are eligible to receive it [ VA ] but don't go to the VA exclusively?
G&P
All UK residents pay National Insurance, which basically pays for the NHS. And the network of GP practices. There IS a charge for prescriptions, i.e. meds, of £7.20 mostly to cover Admin.
The NHS offers free health care for all.
Emergency cases are seen as needed, but for other less urgent procedures there IS a waiting list. It is these, less urgent, cases that are covered by insurance, mostly elective procedures or non-life threaten conditions.
Sort of sounds like the old Communist system in Russia where the big wigs shopped in special stores buying food goodies that were totally unavailable to the peasants. The big wigs also had their own private doctors and private hospitals.
Does anyone actually think that it's going to be any different here in the USA if and when we get government mandated "health" care? NO, NO, NO. The big wigs will go see their own doctors and go to their own hospitals and leave the clinics to the peasants. Same old baloney, different day, different country. Nothing will ever change especially when you're one of the "big wigs" and can flaunt it.
Actually it doesn't. Any citizen in the UK can get additional insurance if they wish, it's a free society.Quote:
Originally Posted by twinkiedooter
The only saving grace with the practice of the NHS sending their personnel to private doctors and hospitals is that they don't miss as much work standing in those "pesky" lines like the hoipoloi.
Taxes are going to be paid regardless, or are people dreaming!
Regardless of status, circumstances, position in this scoiety, you can receive medical treatment
As we are a free society, (we don't carry ID's with us!) we can opt for private care, in addition to the NHS, now please tell me how that is worst than the system in the US
And as for comparing us with communism, get your head out of the 1960s, the paranoria with social reform and stalinism is amazing!
Wolverine, people work low paid jobs, because they can't do anything else, however, the jobs still need to be done, or how else is your lobster delivered to your door, how else is the streets cleaned for you walk down
In is incredible that people think, a system whereby all people in the UK can receive medical treatment is aload of crap
And Elliot
Hospital Blunder! | TopNews US Edition
In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA
I can go on and on as well mate, whatever system of medical care is provided, it is still run by humans and humans make mistakes! Or don't you accpet that either
Now if that isn't a communist statement I don't know what is, one service and that's all you are getting - wow, join the queue now peopleQuote:
Why would they require services above the vaunted "free care " ? Why would there be a need for the perk ?
To add to this, if you are on benefits, very low income, or elderly, the admin charge is waiveredQuote:
All UK residents pay National Insurance, which basically pays for the NHS. And the network of GP practices. There IS a charge for prescriptions, i.e. meds, of £7.20 mostly to cover Admin.
The NHS offers free health care for all.
Emergency cases are seen as needed, but for other less urgent procedures there IS a waiting list. It is these, less urgent, cases that are covered by insurance, mostly elective procedures or non-life threaten conditions
So yet again the UK demonstrates, that you have a choice available but we still take care of the weak, the small and those that can't look after themselves
Wolverine, firstly I pay for private medical insurance for my familyQuote:
Especially since it's YOUR tax dollars (or pounds) that are paying for that higher level of service. Maybe if you got to keep those tax dollars that are paying for that other person's higher level of service, YOU would be able to afford that higher level of service for yourself.
Secondly, What I pay in NI (national Insurance) is nominal, this covers me, my neighbour and anybody else in the UK to receive a very good basic level of care from the very moment you drop ill
I don't therefore have to donate huge amounts to charity just so some poor so and so can get crap treatment, I really feel americans don't understand what it means to care for someone else other than themselves
Wolverine, the system that we have had for many years has been based on a somehwat socialist system, but without going in streams, that was the fall out of WW2
Before you didn't have a choice of where you were treated, so this was a postcode lottery (zipcode), however now you can choose where to be treated, so if the local hospital is not up to your standards, you can elect where to go for treatment
This will now devolop competition, and as such standards will increase
England, is a free country, where you can come and go as you please, it is a place where by people are looked after to the best of anothers ability regardless of race or creed
Having a system whereby, I am all right jack promotes an unhealthy attitude of resentment and such that brings its own social problems, or is that concept just lost on people!
So can anyone in the USA... but you don't seem to tout that system as being "free".Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
In the UK, everyone MUST belong to the NHS system.
Any time you have the word "must" in the rules, it isn't a "free" system is it.
In the USA, people can CHOOSE to purchase health care or not. There is no REQUIREMENT that we pay into the system if we choose not to. You see that as a weakness of the US health care system. I see it as a strength.
Elliot
Phlanx this country is FULL of people with the I earned/got mine F**k everyone else attitude. The best part is most of the people who are like that are "good god fearing people". I'm sure what ever god they pray to is proud of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by phlanx
Elliot, tell me, if you were being atatcked, would you want a state run police department to come to your rescue
If your house was on fire, would you want a state run fire truck to turn up to put out the fire and save as much of your house and family as possible?
So you pay taxes for state run organisations that are there to help and assist you when you need help, and yet a doctor putting a plaster on your leg must be paid for individually
Don't get it!
Dude you MUST pay for city services, state services, federal services so, by your definition, you'll NEVER be free unless those are all gone. Quit whining about "freedom" it ain't working for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Spitvenom, sorry mate, I was spitting venom at the time of generalising the comment instead of directing it at elliot :)
Errrrm no.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
The only thing everyone that works must do is pay national insurance.
If they chose not to use the NHS system then that's their choice.
Admittedly if they are in a life threatening situation they don't actually have a choice, but otherwise they would undoubtedly die.
You are making out the NHS to be something dark and sinister.
The National Health Service provides the basics for health care for the entire population. If you wish to purchase the services of a private doctor for elective procedures that are none urgent or life threatening then that is your choice and you are free to make it. The NHS provides and excellent level of emergency health care for ALL people in the UK.
They would even threat you should you have an accident while visiting here, at ZERO cost to you personally.
I believe that Canada also operates a similar system..
So where's the issue??
Actually I look at your country as the triumph of the Fabians.Quote:
And as for comparing us with communism, get your head out of the 1960s, the paranoria with social reform and stalinism is amazing!
You are right though. That is the problem with America. We will give money to charity but as soon as the money might go to someone who is perceived as lazy oh man all patriotism, kindness goes right out the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by phlanx
There is no virtue in charity or benevolence that is compelled. If the gvt. Is taxing me to provide for all but the neediest then they are picking my pockets .
D*ckens had it right in 'A Christmas Carol' .The men soliciting charity were the good guys . Scrooge's retort to them was that the poor should rely on the gvt services that he supports through his taxes for their welfare. Scrooge was a typical liberal socialist.
Tomder, so why do you pay taxes?
Within a free society, there will be people who do not work, who get all they can take of the government
This is as much of a capitalised society as the black market is
However, I am more than willing to accept this flaw if it means that all can receive a basic level of care, instead of the I am all right jack which doesn't
This does not make me a socialist, but a realist, I recognise that a simple gesture of helping my fellow man, prevents further social problems that would still effect me and my family
And tomder, your atempt to quote ens to is a little lost especially when you quote Washington, which states We must, and our efforts.
Do you think Washington was refferring to me and I when he made his statements?
Actually, having been attacked, I trust my own skill in combat more than I do the skills of most police. I've trained with police officers (let me rephrase that: I have trained police officers) in hand-to-hand combat, and frankly I'm a better fighter than 90% of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by phlanx
So in answer to your question, no, I don't really want or need the cops to come to my rescue.
On the other hand, you are asking your question as a general rule and as a general rule most people WOULD want the cops to be available to rescue them.
Actually, my town in New Jersey does just fine with a VOLUNTEER fire department rather than a city-run fire department. But again, I take your point.Quote:
If your house was on fire, would you want a state run fire truck to turn up to put out the fire and save as much of your house and family as possible?
Let me ask you some questions now...Quote:
So you pay taxes for state run organisations that are there to help and assist you when you need help, and yet a doctor putting a plaster on your leg must be paid for individually
Don't get it!
What happens if there are multiple fires at one time, and the fire department isn't avialable to put out the fire in your kitchen?
Answer: personal fire extinguishers that you can buy on your own to put out your own fires.
What happens when the police are on another call and can't get to you in time to save you from your attacker? (There's an old saying: "When help is needed within seconds, the police are there in minutes." That's why I learned to fight for myself and not rely on the cops being there.)
Answer: Ownership of a personal weapon and martial arts training.
What happens when the state-run health care runs out of beds for the operation that you need?
Answer: A privately-purchased health plan that covers private medicine.
The point is to not be so tied to a system that you are completely reliant on it when the crap hits the fan. The point is to be able to do for yourself what "the system" will fail to do for you. Because Murphy's Law (one of it's many permutations) says that if a system can fail, it will do so when you need it most. Therefore, it is best to have a system that leaves you the largest number of choices and options for if that system DOES fail. And being forced into a government system leaves us the FEWEST options, not the most.
If the government is taking money away from me in order to pay for the system that I am most afraid is going to fail me when I need it most, then I am being left with fewer options than if I kept the same money and spent it on the health care that I want or need. Any system that takes money out of my pocket is one that leaves me with fewer options than if I got to keep that money.
Elliot
Elliot, you can be the most trained, lethal weapon in the world, you can't STOP BULLETS! (Please don't get silly on the idea of wrapping yourself up in cottonwoil to rebuff that statement)
As for murphy, I have made in one of my best mates, as only my mates know how to trip me up with such regularity :)
And yet again your comments are me me me!
Look I understand why you say your comments, it is better to have choices and in a democracy, choices are provided to you
However, a democracy also means there is a tier system, and we all know that poo rolls down hill, so if you are at the bottom, and somebody has to be at the bottom, you are in a for a rough ride
So, being that you are an advocate of Murphys law, then you SURELY can accept that it doesn't matter how well trained, how well protected, how well provided for you are, there are times when you will be tripped up and need the assistance of another human being!
Elliot, haven't you understood that the fewer social problems there are, the less taxed you will be?
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"
Uhhh, cause the law says so.Quote:
Originally Posted by phlanx
It sure isn't because I'm expecting wonderful services from the government... because they don't provide wonderful service at anything they do.
And it isn't so that I can be charitable... I can do that on my own without government forcing me to do it. And the charities that I give money to are more efficient (there's that word again) at making sure that my money is put to good use than the government is.
The only reason that I pay taxes is because I don't want to go to jail for tax evasion.
Are you telling me that you pay taxes because you think you're getting something out of it? That you pay those taxes gladly and eagerly? That you LIKE paying taxes? That you LIKE being reliant on a government to give you goods and services that you could easily purchase for yourself (and in much greater quantity and quality) if only you didn't have to pay so much in taxes?
The tax rates in the UK (last I heard) are over 50%. The average UK salary is in the L23,000 range. So, what are you getting for L11,500 per year that you couldn't buy on your own? Is what you are getting worth what you are paying? Do you truthfully believe you are getting your money's worth from the money you pay in taxes?
I know I'm not.
Elliot
Nope way off the mark there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
It's a tiered system: HM Revenue & Customs: Rates and Allowances - Income Tax
Starts at 10% sub £2,440 the bulk of people pay 20% up to £37,400 and then it's 40% on whatever is above that limit.
National insurance is a further percentage but harder to work out.
What happens in America for Emergency treatment ?
Are you stitched up and then billed?
Or mended for FREE!
Elliot, the tax rate, is based on what you earn
The less you earn the less of a tax bracket you are in
For starters, the average salary (dpending on further tax credits you can get for kids etc) will be at approx 22% of your salary and not 50%
If it was at 50% pal, we would all be moving out
If you earn more than £40k ($70k approx) PA, then anythying earned over 40k will be taxed at 40%, and again, (unsure what the amount is for 50% as it is new) but I think anything over £100k ($160k) and you will be taxed at 50%
I never expect, demand, or require government services, to quote yourself, I am self reliant and as such would probably make a good american.(wow that left a taste :)
However I come from a background that had two very poorly paid parents, who worked hard for what they had, and what they taught me has allowed me to do what I like
I never saw my parents complain or demand that they were not getting enough off the government, but they went out and worked for it themselves
However, my parents bless them are not the sharpest tools in the box, and as such cannot be doctors, teachers, or any other professional, so how could they go get what they need without stealing it, if they didn't have the assistance of the state
There is not a single business on this planet which is answrable to the people.
As an American I would have thought you would understand why a Government must listen to its poeples wishes, even if it is just a voice they are getting, the alternative is war matey, or is that another concept of the social structure lost on you as well?
Then Move. Move somewhere where you approve of what the government does. Does such a place exist? Oe are you doomed to whine about government services until you die? That's a crappy choice of lifestyle in my humble opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
NEITHER CAN THE COPS WHO AREN'T THERE WHEN YOU NEED THEM!! I can get shot dead a lot cheaper than the amount that I pay in taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by phlanx
Yes... because, as Adam Smith makes very clear in Wealth of Nations, the "me me me" attitude is the attitude that helps "us us us".Quote:
As for murphy, I have made in one of my best mates, as only my mates know how to trip me up with such regularity :)
And yet again your comments are me me me!
But the wonderful thing about our system is that you don't have to STAY at the bottom if you don't want to. Capitalism is such that there are very few barriers between the poor and the rich. The poor can become the rich very easily... albeit with a lot of hard work. Nobody has to STAY poor. The system REWARDS hard work and PROMOTES success.Quote:
Look I understand why you say your comments, it is better to have choices and in a democracy, choices are provided to you
However, a democracy also means there is a tier system, and we all know that poo rolls down hill, so if you are at the bottom, and somebody has to be at the bottom, you are in a for a rough ride
So nobody has to be hip-deep in poo for any longer than they decide to stay there.
Yes. And when that time comes, I'd rather have the money in my pocket with which to pay that other person for his services, rather than rely on his charity or the intervention of the government to pay for it for me.Quote:
So, being that you are an advocate of Murphys law, then you SURELY can accept that it doesn't matter how well trained, how well protected, how well provided for you are, there are times when you will be tripped up and need the assistance of another human being!
Yes... and it's funny how MOST of the social problems in existence are ones created by the GOVERNMENT so that they can justify more taxation.Quote:
Elliot, haven't you understood that the fewer social problems there are, the less taxed you will be?
Winston Churchill. And I agree with the sentiment. But it was said by Jefferson that "The government that governs best governs least." The least intervention by the government, the least taxation by the govermment, resulting in the most personal choices available.Quote:
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"
I simply do not see the government as the solution to my problems or anyone else's problems either. You clearly do. Given the historical lack of success of governments throughout history in providing solutions to problems, I'm not quite sure what you base your beliefe on, though. But that is where we differ.
Elliot
There is no place where I would approve of what the government does... because NO GOVERNMENT EVER DEVISED has ever done anything good for its people in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
The biggest lie in history is 9 words long: "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."
However, the USA, for all that its government is becoming ever more intrusive in our lives, STILL offers the greatest opportunities and the lowest level of government interference of any place in the entire world. My whole point is to prevent it from becoming more intrusive than it already is so that the next generation can enjoy the same opportunities that I have enjoyed.
Not the same government programs.
Not the same taxation levels.
Not the same welfare statism.
Not the same nanny statism.
THE SAME OPPORTUNITY.
So, I'll stay here and defend the USA for as long as I can and enjoy the opportunities while trying to hold off the government as long as possible.
Elliot
You call it crappy, I call it freedom. Hopefully we'll still have that when Obama is done trying to wreck the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Somebody in a Capitalist Society HAS to be the lowest paid!!
According to you if they have the work ethic they can rise out of that and get a beter life for themselves
SO WHO REPLACES THEM! Somebody must be lowest paid!
Businesses compete with each other and as such they demand more for less from their emplyees, and their suppliers which is a perpetual cycle
As such people who work hard will still get paid low wages
Surely it is the repsponbility of the fortuante to assist the misfortunate
As regards this :
Why don't you lobby your government to ban weapons? :)Quote:
I can get shot dead a lot cheaper than the amount that I pay in taxes.
A weekly pay check when rasing a family is a very powerful thing to have, the uncertainty of a bsuiness can be very off puttingQuote:
So nobody has to be hip-deep in poo for any longer than they decide to stay there
AND AGAIN! In a capitalist society, not everyone can be rich, the structure of employment would be gone and nobody would deliver the bread
And don't forget, all the winston churchills, jeffersons, and Adam Smiths in the world cannot stop this
We are just three meals away from anarchy!
You need a government, you demand a government, without it, you and I would not be talking, we would be fighting!
How much are you paying in national income taxes, local income taxes, real estate taxes, sales tax, VAT tax (or the local equivalent), excise taxes, stamp duties, motoring taxes, capital gains taxes, Television fees, and every other government tax and fee that you pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by phlanx
BTW, our income taxes in the USA max out at 35% for the highest tax bracket... at least until next year. And I still pay about 49% in taxes, because of state and local income taxes, real estate taxes, sales taxes, etc.
(The gas tax is a big one... $0.18 of every dollar I pay for gas goes to the government... even though they don't produce the gas and have actively prevented the companies that DO produce the gas from producing more. What has the government done to justify that tax? What service am I getting in return from the government? Absolutely none.)
So you are actually paying MORE in taxes than your income tax rate.
What's the all-in percentage you're paying? Calculate it. Then tell me if what you are paying is worth what you are getting in return. (That's the only point of mine you didn't address in your last post.)
Elliot
I'd say most of those in the "lowest paid" category here are teenagers. It's also true that what's considered "poverty" here is often over dramatized. Not to say we don't have those who are truly misfortunate who should be helped one way or another. We're not ogres, and yes we need government, but not the type of nanny state government the left in this country desires - government is not the answer to everyone's problems.
There are essential services enumerated in the Constitution that the national government has a duty to perform and it is reasonable for Congress to collect taxes for those purposes.Quote:
Tomder, so why do you pay taxes?
The rest of the things that we are taxed for ;the schools ,the police forces ,the fire depts ,and even most of the safety net services that you are referring to are the exclusive authorities of the states in our federal system.
That's just the way it is . Any attempt by the national government to fund these are a usurpation of power. I do not oppose the funding of a safety net. I object to a central nanny state ,with representatives from the 4 corners of our large nation making decisions that are largely parochial .
In other words ,I'm perfectly content with the system the founders put in place since they added a means to AMEND the Constitution as an instrument to handle evolving sociatal and cultural standards.
You must separate my signature quote with the D*ckens quote . I added Washington's quote after Republicans got their butts handed to them . It is a rally call ;an inspirational quote . Specifically Washington used it in the darkest days of our Revolution when it appeared you guys were going to win.Quote:
And tomder, your atempt to quote ens to is a little lost especially when you quote Washington, which states We must, and our efforts.
Do you think Washington was refferring to me and I when he made his statements?
The D*ckens quote as I stated illustrates what I think is the complete error of the effort to compel benevolence out of people by some kind of Robin Hood mentality . Lest we forget , Sherwood ,representing government power to tax ,was the bad guy in that tale .
I have addressed your points several times on this issue, and I have told you I agree with you that a government will always do more robbing than providing
However, I have also stated many many times, you need a government to be there to provide the link in the social structure
Don't get me started on the gas tax over here - shocking how much we pay
As I have an inhouse accountant, and the wife takes care of the books at home, personally I have no idea
I would suspect it wouldn't be far off 50-60% of all money spent is on taxes
But then that is a very simplified view of the way it works here
We pay taxes, but we get tax credits which gives us some back for us too look after our kids
My wife's tax bracket is supplimented because she works limited hours so she pick up the kids from school etc
The cars we use are taxed at the point of sale, yet I claim the tax back through the business
So over here it is not as easy to read into the figures as it is with yourselves
I have to assume you are not on a low income and as such you live in an afluent area of NJ
So with few homes around covering a larger area of space, the taxes raised from these homes would not cover the cost of the building the road outside your house, or the one that takes you to the supermarket to get the milk delivered by the poorly paid worker
So you have to accept that the cost of services that you use is supplimented by the masses
I am familiar with NJ taxes .Trust me ;the taxes not only cover services for the local community but in fact pay for wealth transfer to lower wage areas to fund their school districts etc. In effect ,once your home is fully paid for the property taxes in NJ (where I work ) and NY (where I live )are the equivalent of paying an extra rent on your home.Quote:
I have to assume you are not on a low income and as such you live in an afluent area of NJ
So with few homes around covering a larger area of space, the taxes raised from these homes would not cover the cost of the building the road outside your house, or the one that takes you to the supermarket to get the milk delivered by the poorly paid worker
So you have to accept that the cost of services that you use is supplimented by the masses
It is for this reason more than any other that once we become geezers on a fixed income we are forced to vacate this great area and move to states that are much more friendly to the elderly . (ok the winters also have something to do with it)
The funny thing is that in those states they still manage to provide services that you are saying could not be provided unless the taxes were at an oppressive rate .
Are there any places/countries on this earth where the governemnt is running to your liking?Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Not speaking for Elliot but I doubt it. What you guys outside of the U.S. can't seem to figure out is the founders rightfully had a deep distrust of government and that distrust and suspicion of government is a hallmark of the American concept and experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
That is the basis of our constitution, the reason for the separation of and specifically enumerated powers, the bill of rights, the "shall nots," and words like violate, infringe, abridge etc. in the constitution. If we as a country lose that distrust and suspicion and allow the government to continue to abridge our rights and go beyond the powers specifically enumerated we are no longer America, the land of the free. Nowhere in the constitution is Congress given the power to take my money and give it to someone else... period.
It must suck going through your entire life not liking the way your country is run and no way of ever having it to your liking.
Not at all ;a distrust of government is fundamental to liberty .
Quote:
How else could it end? What reasonable social and political order could conceivably be built and maintained where authority was questioned before it was obeyed, where social differences were considered to be incidental rather than essential to community order, and where superiority, suspect in principle, was not allowed to concentrate in the hands of a few but was scattered broadly through the populace? No one could clearly say. But some, caught up in a vision of the future in which the peculiarities of American life became the marks of a chosen people, found in the defiance of traditional order the firmest of all grounds for their hope for a freer life. The details of this new world were not as yet clearly depicted; but faith ran high that a better world than any that had ever been known could be built where authority was distrusted and held in constant scrutiny; where the status of men flowed from their achievements and from their personal qualities, not from distinctions ascribed to them at birth; and where the use of power over the lives of men was jealously guarded and severely restricted. It was only where there was this defiance, this refusal to truckle, this distrust of all authority, political or social, that institutions would express human aspirations, not crush them.
(Bernard Bailyn The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution. )
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