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-   -   Global Warming "Scientists" got it wrong? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=398824)

  • Sep 22, 2009, 12:43 PM
    ETWolverine
    Global Warming "Scientists" got it wrong?
    Say it ain't so...

    But it is.
    Quote:


    Scientists pull an about face on global warming


    By Lorne Gunter, For The Calgary Herald September 19, 2009



    Imagine if Pope Benedict gave a speech saying the Catholic Church has had it wrong all these centuries; there is no reason priests shouldn't marry. That might generate the odd headline, no?

    Or if Don Cherry claimed suddenly to like European hockey players who wear visors and float around the ice, never bodychecking opponents.
    Or Jack Layton insisted that unions are ruining the economy by distorting wages and protecting unproductive workers.

    Or Stephen Harper began arguing that it makes good economic sense for Ottawa to own a car company. (Oh, wait, that one happened.) But at least, the Tories-buy-GM aberration made all the papers and newscasts.
    When a leading proponent for one point of view suddenly starts batting for the other side, it's usually newsworthy.

    So why was a speech last week by Prof. Mojib Latif of Germany's Leibniz Institute not given more prominence?

    Latif is one of the leading climate modellers in the world. He is the recipient of several international climate-study prizes and a lead author for the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). He has contributed significantly to the IPCC's last two five-year reports that have stated unequivocally that man-made greenhouse emissions are causing the planet to warm dangerously.

    Yet last week in Geneva, at the UN's World Climate Conference--an annual gathering of the so-called "scientific consensus" on man-made climate change --Latif conceded the Earth has not warmed for nearly a decade and that we are likely entering "one or even two decades during which temperatures cool."

    The global warming theory has been based all along on the idea that the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans would absorb much of the greenhouse warming caused by a rise in man-made carbon dioxide, then they would let off that heat and warm the atmosphere and the land.

    But as Latif pointed out, the Atlantic, and particularly the North Atlantic, has been cooling instead. And it looks set to continue a cooling phase for 10 to 20 more years.

    "How much?" he wondered before the assembled delegates. "The jury is still out."

    But it is increasingly clear that global warming is on hiatus for the time being. And that is not what the UN, the alarmist scientists or environmentalists predicted. For the past dozen years, since the Kyoto accords were signed in 1997, it has been beaten into our heads with the force and repetition of the rowing drum on a slave galley that the Earth is warming and will continue to warm rapidly through this century until we reach deadly temperatures around 2100.

    While they deny it now, the facts to the contrary are staring them in the face: None of the alarmist drummers ever predicted anything like a 30-year pause in their apocalyptic scenario.

    Latif says he expects warming to resume in 2020 or 2030.

    In the past year, two other groups of scientists--one in Germany, the second in the United States--have come to the same conclusion: Warming is on hold, likely because of a cooling of the Earth's upper oceans, but it will resume.

    But how is that knowable? How can Latif and the others state with certainty that after this long and unforeseen cooling, dangerous man-made heating will resume? They failed to observe the current cooling for years after it had begun, how then can their predictions for the resumption of dangerous warming be trusted?

    My point is they cannot. It's true the supercomputer models Latif and other modellers rely on for their dire predictions are becoming more accurate. But getting the future correct is far trickier. Chances are some unforeseen future changes will throw the current predictions out of whack long before the forecast resumption of warming.

    Lorne Gunter is a columnist with the Edmonton Journal and National Post.
    © Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald


    So... when does something become a consensus opinion? How many scientists make a "consensus opinion"?

    When do we say that the science is undeniable and can no longer be debated? And what if the guys who said it begin debating with their original science that is "undeniable"? Is it then open for debate again?

    Because at this point we have THREE scientific groups, including contributors to the IPCC report, who are all saying that we are going through GLOBAL COOLING not global warming.

    When can we consider the IPCC report to have been in error?

    And if these guys keep getting it wrong time and again when they make claims about global cooling, why are we still even listening to them on the subject?
  • Sep 22, 2009, 01:21 PM
    speechlesstx
    Gee, it took them long enough. Doesn't this put a damper on Obama's UN speech today? Doubtful, the "consensus opinion" will remain political, not scientific.
  • Sep 22, 2009, 02:07 PM
    ETWolverine

    I haven't seen Algore in a while...

    I wonder if he's having one of his Goregasms over this. After all, if global warming turns out to have been in error, he stands to lose a pretty penny in public appearance and speaking engagement money and residuals from his flop of a documentary. Not to mention all those carbon credits he paid a pretty penny for that will suddenly become worthless.

    Elliot
  • Sep 22, 2009, 02:13 PM
    twinkiedooter

    Gee considering this has been one of the coolest summers Ohio has ever had it would not surprise me that the earth is cooling and not warming. Guess the politicians made enough money out of the warming racket and now they're going to go after the cooling racket instead. So what else is new?
  • Sep 22, 2009, 02:31 PM
    speechlesstx

    Back to another ice age?
  • Sep 22, 2009, 03:22 PM
    paraclete
    Ice Age
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post

    Thirty years ago they were predicting an ice age, twenty years ago they began predicting warming it all comes from examining statistics on a short term time scale. If you examine ice core samples spanning geological time scales what you find is "short" periods of high temperature followed by long periods of low temperature so the probability is that the scientists predicting warming from carbon dioxide are wrong

    here are two pieces of recent analysis that show the conundrum if you focus on locally gathered data.

    A 30,000-year Record Of Sea Surface Temperatures Off South Australia

    Greenland Ice Core Analysis Shows Drastic Climate Change Near End Of Last Ice Age

    So it seems possible we can see cooling in north America and warming elsewhere even all the scenarios might even operate at the same time but remember we are talking short term
  • Sep 23, 2009, 04:41 AM
    tomder55

    The nanny statist speaks .

    Speaking about climate change /global warming /cooling /warming /cooling /warming
    /cooling /warming /cooling /... etc Energy Czar Steven Chu (or is he a Secretary ? Hard to tell them apart) said at a Washington conference
    "The American public . . . just like your teenage kids, aren't acting in a way that they should act,"..... "The American public has to really understand in their core how important this issue is."

    Evidently they really believe this.

    The EPA is in full court press in alliance with the the Parent Teacher Organization on a 6000 school blitz to teach students about climate change and energy efficiency.
    09/17/2009: EPA Launches Fall Tour to Help Americans Fight Climate Change and Save Money
    If the parents are acting like a bunch a teenagers perhaps the teanagers ,indoctrinated sufficiently enough ,will be the adults.

    EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson basically said the whole thing will be painless .

    My response is Chu has no clue... and neither does Jackson My guess is that painless is a relative term. The Treasury Dept in a Friday afternoon news dump released a report that admits that Waxman-Markey will cost $300 billion annually .
    Breaking News: Treasury Admits Global Warming Cap-and-Trade Costs Could Hit $300 Billion Annually | CEI


    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
    (C.S. Lewis)
  • Sep 23, 2009, 05:41 AM
    inthebox

    I wonder if China and India are going to give Obama a "cool" reception over global warming ;)


    G&P
  • Sep 23, 2009, 06:35 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    My response is Chu has no clue....

    Yep, Chu has no clue. He didn't know oil had something to do with the Energy Dept, which failed its own energy savings audit and which is on a 6000 school propaganda tour.
  • Sep 23, 2009, 07:02 AM
    ETWolverine

    Wait a minute, everyone. Don't worry. The Anointed One, the Great Messiah himself has spoken. We're saved!! According to a speech he gave yesterday, the use of fossil fuels in the USA over the past 8 months is the lowest it's been in decades... and it's all due to HIS policies.

    Never mind that we're in a recession, wherein fewer goods are being produced and less fuel is therefore being used by industry. It's all HIS doing.

    Well, yeah, if you consider the fact that the recession is proceeding longer than it should have is due to his policies, then yes, it is all his doing.

    Elliot
  • Sep 23, 2009, 07:06 AM
    excon
    Hello Elliot:

    I don't know whether throwing trash into the air causes warming, cooling or monkeys to rain down upon you. But I DO know it can't be good. You?? I think you think we should continue to do it. It's good for business, you know.

    Wouldn't that kind of be like a death panel? You know, YOUR side deciding that we should die because YOUR side thinks poisoning our only atmosphere is just fine and dandy? I think it IS. Yup, you got DEATH PANELS going on.

    excon
  • Sep 23, 2009, 07:07 AM
    tomder55

    Pertinent to the situation in California where the spiggot was shut off from the farmers was Chu's comments that he was looking at a day when agriculture in California dies.
    http://tag.admeld.com/ad/iframe/51/reutersus/728x90/ros?t=1253714841189&url=http%3A//www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSTRE5135OY20090205

    The most quick way to ensure that self fulfilling prophesy would be to cut them off from their water supply .
  • Sep 23, 2009, 07:54 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello Elliot:

    I dunno whether throwing trash into the air causes warming, cooling or monkeys to rain down upon you. But I DO know it can't be good. You??? I think you think we should continue to do it. It's good for business, you know.

    Wouldn't that kinda be like a death panel?? You know, YOUR side deciding that we should die because YOUR side thinks poisoning our only atmosphere is just fine and dandy?? I think it IS. Yup, you got DEATH PANELS going on.

    excon

    I'm glad you posted this.

    You see, there's about as much proof for global warming and global cooling as there is for monkeys raining down on us.

    I haven't seen any monkeys.

    I haven't seen any global warming or global cooling either.

    And I have absolutely NO IDEA what "throwing garbage" into the air has.

    Neither do you. Any claim to the contrary is just a guess.

    I do know that CARBON, which has been named a pollutant, is one of the more beneficial and necessary elements for life.

    I do know that METHANE, which has been named a pollutant, is one of the more beneficial and necessary elements for life.

    And I know that calling things that are necessary and beneficial to life "pollutants" is a dumb thing to do. And ACTIVELY trying to eliminate those things is downright suicidal.

    NONE of that precludes the idea of being as clean as possible when producing new goods or just going about our lives. But the argument that not doing so is going to destroy the world is ridiculous. And THAT is the point.

    Elliot
  • Sep 23, 2009, 08:10 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    And I know that calling things that are necessary and beneficial to life "pollutants" is a dumb thing to do. And ACTIVELY trying to eliminate those things is downright suicidal.

    Hello again, El:

    Of course, someone who thinks that "pollutants", don't "pollute", but instead are "beneficial to life", would believe that eliminating them would be suicide...

    Fortunately for the world, only the tin hat crowd is drinking THAT koolaid. I'm glad you posted too.

    excon
  • Sep 23, 2009, 09:11 AM
    ETWolverine

    Excon,

    Do you seriously think that methane and carbon are pollutants?

    No wonder you are stuck on global warming. You've fallen for their schtick.

    Not surprising... most people with a public-school science education think the same thing as you do. But I thought you knew better. My mistake...

    Elliot
  • Sep 23, 2009, 10:47 AM
    speechlesstx

    Get this, in the UK you could get your pay docked if you exceed your carbon ration...

    Quote:

    Launch of first UK employee carbon ration scheme
    Source: Envido
    Sep. 16, 2009

    The UK’s first employee carbon ration scheme to reduce individual carbon emissions is launched, reports Envido.

    WSP has launched the UK’s first employee carbon rationing scheme that is aimed to monitor employees’ personal carbon emissions, including home energy bills, petrol purchases and holiday flights. People who emit more than their ration of carbon emissions are having their pay docked in a trial that could lead to carbon emission rationing schemes being reintroduced via the workplace.

    After the trial demonstrated the effectiveness of fining people for exceeding their personal carbon emissions target, employees are required to submit quarterly carbon emission reports detailing their carbon consumption. Workers who take a long-haul flight are likely to be fined for exceeding their annual carbon ration scheme unless they take drastic action in other areas, such as switching off the central heating or cutting out almost all car journeys.

    Those who exceed their carbon ration scheme pay a fine for every kilogram of carbon they emit over the limit. The money is deducted from their pay and the level of the fine is printed on payslips. Those who consume less than their carbon ration scheme are rewarded at the same rate per kilogram. The maximum that an employee can earn or be fined has been capped at £100, but is likely to rise once staff has grown accustomed to the idea.

    The idea of personal quotas for carbon emissions through carbon ration schemes is being advocated by the Institute for Public Policy Research. Employees would be given a number of free “carbon credits”, to buy gas and electricity for their homes, fuel for cars and plane tickets for holidays. Those who did not use all their carbon credits could sell the excess to those who exceeded their carbon emission quota.

    In UK the carbon ration schemes target of this year is 5.5 tonnes of carbon, which is one tonne above the national average for home energy and personal transport. The US carbon ration schemes target is likely to be double the UK target, to reflect greater carbon emissions per person.
    You have got to be kidding me.
  • Sep 23, 2009, 11:49 AM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    Of course, someone who thinks that "pollutants", don't "pollute", but instead are "beneficial to life", would believe that eliminating them would be suicide....

    Fortunately for the world, only the tin hat crowd is drinkin THAT koolaid. I'm glad you posted too.

    excon

    Photosynthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I don't know how CO2, required for photosynthesis, is a "pollutant." Please explain EX.



    G&P
  • Sep 23, 2009, 12:54 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    I don't know how CO2, required for photosynthesis, is a "pollutant." Please explain EX.

    Hello in:

    CO2 is like water. In small amounts it's good. But, too much of it, we drown.

    Too much CO2 will cause the oceans to rise a few feet thereby killing about a jillion people and pissing off a whole lot more. Tropical birds'll like it, though.

    excon
  • Sep 23, 2009, 01:44 PM
    ETWolverine

    How, pray tell, does CO2 cause oceans to rise, oh great font of wisdom that is Excon?

    And if this process DOES occur, will it occur so quickly that it will cause a tsunami that will kill "about a jillion people" like in the really bad disaster movies? Or is it more likely to happen slowly over several decades, giving people time to move to other places that are safer, dryer, and generally more comfortable?

    "Too much" CO2 causes more plants (mostly sea algae) to grow and photosynthesis to increase, which then converts the CO2 into oxygen, thus maintaining the equilibrium of the planet. There is no such thing as "too much CO2".

    Or do you think that there's such a thing as too much O2 and too many plants too?

    >snicker<

    Elliot
  • Sep 23, 2009, 01:53 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    How, pray tell, does CO2 cause oceans to rise, oh great font of wisdom that is Excon?

    Hello again, El:

    It's like this. We liberals have a secret book. It tells us that perfection could not happen all by itself. It says that perfection needs an exconvict to have deigned it to be so... and then it is. Guess what?

    excon

    PS> I heard you guys got a similar book...

    PPS> So, what do you have against NY City? Wouldn't you rather STOP the oceans from rising instead of having to move NY CITY? Dude!
  • Sep 23, 2009, 02:09 PM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    It's like this. We liberals have a secret book. It tells us that perfection could not happen all by itself. It says that perfection needs an exconvict to have deigned it to be so... and then it is. Guess what?

    excon

    PS> I heard you guys got a similar book...

    PPS> So, what do you have against NY City? Wouldn't you rather STOP the oceans from rising instead of having to move NY CITY? Dude!!

    I'll take my chances with the rising of the seas around NY... I doubt I'm going to be swimming down Broadway any time soon, barring a major water-main break.

    As for your book... we Conservatives are already perfect. We don't need no stinkin' book.

    Elliot
  • Sep 23, 2009, 02:39 PM
    paraclete
    Cool
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    I wonder if China and India are going to give Obama a "cool" reception over global warming ;)


    G&P

    China and India have opted for a voluntary scheme where a percentage of energy will come from renewables. That doesn't put the brakes on emissions, it just directs efforts
  • Oct 12, 2009, 10:29 AM
    speechlesstx
    Even the BBC has gotten skeptical. Is there hope for mankind yet?

    Quote:

    What happened to global warming?

    By Paul Hudson
    Climate correspondent, BBC News

    This headline may come as a bit of a surprise, so too might that fact that the warmest year recorded globally was not in 2008 or 2007, but in 1998.

    But it is true. For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

    And our climate models did not forecast it, even though man-made carbon dioxide, the gas thought to be responsible for warming our planet, has continued to rise.
    Got to love that scientific consensus now.
  • Oct 12, 2009, 11:49 AM
    sGt HarDKorE
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    As for your book... we Conservatives are already perfect. We don't need no stinkin' book.

    Elliot

    You sure do think highly of yourself. Im sure the bible says it's a sin to think your perfect, if not I'll just misinterpret the bible to fit my point. I need some Republican help though. :confused:
  • Oct 12, 2009, 02:46 PM
    paraclete
    Wrong science
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Even the BBC has gotten skeptical. Is there hope for mankind yet?

    Gotta love that scientific consensus now.

    One thing science hates to do is say we are wrong, I don't place my faith in the media to give me hope, if I did I would be in despair.
  • Oct 19, 2009, 10:28 AM
    speechlesstx

    Only 50 days to save the world from global warming according to British PM Gordon Brown:

    Quote:

    Gordon Brown said negotiators had 50 days to save the world from global warming and break the "impasse".

    He told the Major Economies Forum in London, which brings together 17 of the world's biggest greenhouse gas-emitting countries, there was "no plan B".
    I guess he doesn't watch BBC.
  • Oct 19, 2009, 01:38 PM
    paraclete
    This whole global warming from co2 thing has become an article of faith. You have the true believers, the fanatic fundamentalists, the skeptics (agnostics) and the athiests. Brown is among the fundamentalists as was was his predecessor.
  • Oct 19, 2009, 02:02 PM
    phlanx

    Evening all

    Firstly PLEASE PLEASE Do not think PM Gordon Brown is British, we have disowned him! He is Scottish and will stay that way

    He is about to loose the next General Election and is looking for a Save the World Campaign - he has lost the plot

    Talking about Scientists claiming this or the other

    In the 80s, PM Margaret Thatcher wanted the science of global warming to proved or disproved

    SO the givernment requested a team of people to look at this, and funnily enough they were promised grants if they proved it was an effect

    Low and behold, they all came back with an opinon that Global Warming was occurring and it was man made

    This was one of the Great Lady's ideas to start a new bsuiness for the country, especially at a time when we losing some of our industries due to foreign markets and needed jobs to be created in new fields

    So I am afraid most of us brits do look at the scientific approach with a lot of salt

    However, this is in noway supporting elliot idea that we should just forget everything just because the warming and cooling of the planet is a natural cycle

    Who here wants to work in a town or city that is full of smog

    Who here wants to have their children being brought up with high amounts of pollutants in the air that cause respiratory conditions

    If the simple fact remains, that burning and consuming fossil fuels produce smog then why should we continue to do so especially when alternatives on the market exist to provide us with clean affordable and more importantly renewable energy

    Elliot
    Quote:

    I'll take my chances with the rising of the seas around NY... I doubt I'm going to be swimming down Broadway any time soon, barring a major water-main break
    Please mate, yet again we are back to a "Im all right jack" attitude, when will you realise there are 6bn people here, in 2040 this is expected to be 9bn

    Fossil fuels have a shelf life

    We need to change the way we produce energy for starters, as the world cannot feed itself at the moment let alone adding more to the dinner table
  • Oct 19, 2009, 02:21 PM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phlanx View Post
    Firstly PLEASE PLEASE Do not think PM Gordon Brown is British, we have disowned him! He is Scottish and will stay that way

    Duly noted and understood.

    Quote:

    This was one of the Great Lady's ideas to start a new bsuiness for the country, especially at a time when we losing some of our industries due to foreign markets and needed jobs to be created in new fields
    I think you'll find quite a few of us were fans of the Great Lady. Oh that we could find a couple more like her and counterpart over here at the time.

    Quote:

    Who here wants to work in a town or city that is full of smog

    Who here wants to have their children being brought up with high amounts of pollutants in the air that cause respiratory conditions

    If the simple fact remains, that burning and consuming fossil fuels produce smog then why should we continue to do so especially when alternatives on the market exist to provide us with clean affordable and more importantly renewable energy
    Don't let the things said about us here fool you into believing we're for trashing the planet or against alternative energy sources. I'm just against this sham that is the global warming 'consensus.'

    Steve (also)
  • Oct 19, 2009, 02:34 PM
    phlanx

    Eveing Steve

    Thank you on the Gordon Brown thing - lost cause I'm afraid :)

    Magaret Thatcher, the Iron Lady, yes please, she really dug us out of a very large pit, and they way she would just say no to every politician (british or european) and state, "I am going to do it like this, you can follow if you like" was genius

    I must say though, what I love about forums like this, is you get to understand what another countries poeples really think without being told via news etc

    The news portrays the US as a oil crazed country where the idea of recycling is poo pooed, and yet I have found that it is not like that, purely the effect of previous generations on the next, so I do see your point of view.

    Basically if I wanted to be lied to I would speak to my teenage kids, politicians have a resposnibilty to be honest, like that will ever happen
  • Oct 19, 2009, 02:57 PM
    paraclete
    The jurys out
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phlanx View Post
    Evening all

    Firstly PLEASE PLEASE Do not think PM Gordon Brown is British, we have disowned him! He is Scottish and will stay that way

    He is about to loose the next General Election and is looking for a Save the World Campaign - he has lost the plot

    Yes you guys have been trying to get rid of those pesky scots for centuries, but you do like Labor politicians, why I can't understand

    Quote:

    Talking about Scientists claiming this or the other

    In the 80s, PM Margaret Thatcher wanted the science of global warming to proved or disproved

    SO the givernment requested a team of people to look at this, and funnily enough they were promised grants if they proved it was an effect

    Low and behold, they all came back with an opinon that Global Warming was occurring and it was man made

    This was one of the Great Lady's ideas to start a new bsuiness for the country, especially at a time when we losing some of our industries due to foreign markets and needed jobs to be created in new fields
    So now global warming is mad Margaret's fault, you do draw a long bow to suggest she could have that much influence on a modern world. Margaret's legacy is to cause a hole in the ozone layer by taking war to the south Atlantic. By the way my suggestion is about as equally plausible as yours.

    Quote:

    So I am afraid most of us brits do look at the scientific approach with a lot of salt

    However, this is in noway supporting elliot idea that we should just forget everything just because the warming and cooling of the planet is a natural cycle

    Who here wants to work in a town or city that is full of smog

    Who here wants to have their children being brought up with high amounts of pollutants in the air that cause respiratory conditions

    If the simple fact remains, that burning and consuming fossil fuels produce smog then why should we continue to do so especially when alternatives on the market exist to provide us with clean affordable and more importantly renewable energy
    I think there is actually more factual support for the idea that warming/cooling is a natural cycle that we have yet to discern. This has nothing to do with the desirability of continuing the use of fossil fuels. Our availability of fossil fuels is finite and unfortunately concentrated in parts of the world where they could become very expensive. Each nation needs to exploit its natural resources without the interference of the international community, so Britian/Europe has an abundance of wind, it makes good sense to use this resource, but without forcing the rest of the world to comply because it makes you uncompetitive. Australia has an abundance of sun/uranium/coal it makes good sense to use this resource even it it gives us competitive advantage, other nations have a different mix, but fixation on co2 is paranoia.

    Quote:

    Elliot

    Please mate, yet again we are back to a "Im all right jack" attitude, when will you realise there are 6bn people here, in 2040 this is expected to be 9bn

    Fossil fuels have a shelf life

    We need to change the way we produce energy for starters, as the world cannot feed itself at the moment let alone adding more to the dinner table
    I agree that fossil fuels have a shelf life, but you won't change the attitude of people like Elliot who have failed to realise the US has entered the decline phase of their particular empire. The world can feed itsself and even for 9 Billion but we have to get the distribution right. This is the problem, we can produce food but to distribute it properly we have to get a lot smarter, like stop subsidising surpluses in Europe and the US. We need to teach Africa to feed itself and stem the migration of people who need economic development.

    Right now the jury is still out on the greenhouse gas debate, but it isn't out on the fact that serious climatic changes are taking place, particularly at the poles. I think there is an arrogance that says we can influence that either way and the exploiters have found anew way to control and exploit us.
  • Oct 19, 2009, 03:00 PM
    ETWolverine

    Phlanx,

    I want to make my position clear.

    I'm not in favor of polluting. I just don't think that it is causing global warming. There are very good reasons not to pollute the planet without having to resort to mythology and junk science.

    I'm in favor of finding alternative fuels... if for no other reason than energy independence from foreign bodies that do not have our best interests at heart.

    I'm in favor of ecological protection, if only so that the next generation can hunt, fish, and log as much as we can today.

    I'm in favor of lowering emmissions where feasible and financially sound to do so, if only because of the health concerns from people who suffer from asthma and similar disorders.

    But please don't tell me that the reason that I need to do this stuff is because of global warming when all the evidence points to a cooling trend and not a warming one. Please don't tell me that man-made pollution is changing the weather globally when all evidence points to the fact that the weather trends we are seeing are cyclical and have been going on for THOUSANDS of years... long before mankind was in the picture.

    There are some very good reasons to be environmentally conscious... but global warming ISN'T one of them. And I resent those (like AlGore) who try to insult my intelligence on this issue with "Chicken Little" cries of "The sky is falling" when the sky is doing just fine, thanks.

    Elliot
  • Oct 19, 2009, 03:07 PM
    phlanx

    Hi Elliot

    Well well, again we agree on a point :)

    However, we are back with politicians again aren't we :)

    Do you think, that it is a case of hope and fear

    They breathe fear by stating the sky is falling, and spread hope through intervention

    So their argument is based on the game they play of wanting to be re-elected?
  • Oct 21, 2009, 09:53 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phlanx View Post
    Hi Elliot

    Well well, again we agree on a point :)

    However, we are back with politicans again arent we :)

    Do you think, that it is a case of hope and fear

    They breathe fear by stating the sky is falling, and spread hope through intervention

    So their argument is based on the game they play of wanting to be re-elected?

    Steve you know that it is all a game, a game of my statistics are better than your statistics. Do the planet warming statistics of recent years suggest it might be? What statistics? Well the area of sea ice in the arctic, the retreat of glaciers. Some statistics suggest it is cooling, what statistics? Try the level of snow fall in Eastern Antarctica, mean average temperatures over the last thousand years. Is CO2 the problem? According to Al Gore's short term measurement there is a correlation, according to others CO2 keeps rising but temperature isn't in step and thousands of years ago CO2 was much higher but we still have polar bears. This is a political game being played on a world stage. For Europe if everyone falls in line they win and everyone buys their technology. For the US, no warming means business as usual. What I say is Bah, Humbug, In fifty years we are going to laugh at how gullible people were.
    But the sad truth is the west will be reduced to third world standards because the third world will have all the economic power
  • Oct 21, 2009, 10:04 PM
    Alty

    I only have one thing to say.

    I was looking forward to the planet warming up. I live in Canada, the winters are cold. :(

    Now they're saying it's cooling down.

    That does it, I'm moving to Hawaii. :(
  • Oct 21, 2009, 11:08 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    I only have one thing to say.

    I was looking forward to the planet warming up. I live in Canada, the winters are cold. :(

    Now they're saying it's cooling down.

    That does it, I'm moving to Hawaii. :(

    I'd go now, don't wait, even if some parts are warming, the long term projections are it won't stay that way, it seems we can have an ice age even if CO2 levels are more than twice what they are now, something that these fanatics just haven't explained yet. I think I'll move North too, the winters are just too cold and with it becoming more humid it's becoming too hard to take
  • Oct 22, 2009, 01:57 AM
    phlanx

    Clete,

    An ice age can be triggered by the mass of fresh water expanding with the melting of the ice caps pucshing the bodies of sea water further south

    It is within the sea water that we have the warm currents that protect us from expanding poles, so when these are pushed south, the fresh water cools quicker and an Ice Age occurs and if it is anything like the animated film, bring it on :)
  • Oct 22, 2009, 06:23 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    That does it, I'm moving to Hawaii. :(

    Hawaii will surely be disappearing under water in a few years so buy something inland so you'll be right there for the new beach front property.
  • Oct 22, 2009, 07:43 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    I want to make my position clear.

    I'm not in favor of poluting. I just don't think that it is causing global warming.

    Hello Elliot:

    See, there the thing you right wingers don't get... If you're not in favor of polluting, why not just stop polluting even if it doesn't cause global warming?? If you're right, whatever pollution is causing will stop, even if it's not global warming... Pollution IS doing something bad, no??

    excon
  • Oct 22, 2009, 08:20 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello Elliot:

    See, there the thing you right wingers don't get.... If you're not in favor of poluting, why not just stop poluting even if it doesn't cause global warming??? If you're right, whatever polution is causing will stop, even it it's not global warming... Polution IS doing something bad, no???

    excon

    I have no problem with just stopping pollution.

    What I have a problem with is government legislating an end to emissions that AREN'T pollution for the express purpose of regulating and controlling industry. What I have a problem with is government using non-existant "global warming" as an excuse to control the economy.

    When the government can create a fiction that says that carbon dioxide is a pollutant, and then make laws that limit the production of carbon dioxide, there is a problem. Because carbon dioxide is DEMONSTRABLY not a pollutant, and the sole purpose of limiting its production is to control industry, not control of pollution.

    So if we want to make sensible laws about controlling pollution, I can get behind that. But I'm against laws that limit the production of stuff that isn't pollution just for the sake of government power.

    Elliot

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