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  • Aug 25, 2009, 07:27 PM
    paraclete
    Big questions about health care
    I know this debate has been raging on this Board reflecting just how emotive an issue it is but have you considered that you may not be getting the bang you think for your buck

    It seems the average person in the US spends more on health care than UK or France, sufferers a higher infant mortality rate and has a lower life expectancy. Now I know this could be considered heresy but just maybe the system is broken

    Now please don't rush in and shoot the messenger because I post this just to get some new statistics into the debate and maybe those in the US might realise they don't live in the best of all possible worlds where health care is concerned
  • Aug 25, 2009, 07:36 PM
    N0help4u

    Which article?
    I saw a bunch of articles for Asia.

    And NO we are not getting any bang for our buck. Especially when you get older and end up in a nursing home... they kill you there!!
  • Aug 25, 2009, 08:08 PM
    paraclete
    I tried to post this link earlier but it didn't work but I will try again
    BBC NEWS | Health | Healthcare around the world

    Look it is well known here that to rely on the public system could kill you but there are poor medicos everywhere, yes nursing homes run for a profit are a problem but who is going to take it on?
  • Aug 26, 2009, 02:47 AM
    tomder55
    It's not the nursing homes run for a profit that are a problem here. They give fine quality care .But it is expensive and ultimately the person in the nursing home ends up in a public run, urine stinkin, holding pen of a nursing home. Government run on full display.

    The devil is in the details on statistics . Infant mortality as an example is just a question of how they are counted.

    The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless.And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates.

    Our life expectency numbers are lower not because of the quality of our care ;but other factors like we ranked first or near first in:automobile deaths, drug and alcohol related deaths, obeisety related deaths, and homicide.These are cultural related factors and not quality of care .

    And of course we all have a difference of opinions on how to contain costs. I think there are some reforms that could be implemented that would make real costs reductions that would not require the dismantling of the system... or more accurate... taking a wrecking ball to a system that covers almost 20% of the GDP , as the President and Congress want to do in a bumrush fashion.
    We already see their vision for cost containment... deny care... it is written into their bills ,and is written extensively by the "thinkers" who authored the model that the dems used as a template and a formula when crafting their bill.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 03:36 AM
    paraclete
    The devil of detail
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post

    The devil is in the details on statistics . Infant mortality as an example is just a question of how they are counted.

    T

    A fine political answer, Tom, the statistics have been twisted, we are more truthful than anyone else, and in any case our system represents too much of the GDP to reform. Why do you guys bother electing politicians, you should just let your local doctors elect the President and by the way that last excuse is used for climate change as well, so now you have two things you can do nothing about because of the impact on GDP. What happens when one effects the economy so much you can't afford the other?

    The reality is it's only the poor people who can't afford health care and they don't contribute much of the GDP, actually they are a drag on the GDP aren't they? Not keeping up their share of making the doctors rich by increasing the take of the medical profession. I have news for you, you have been counting the wrong things in GDP. GDP is product not services and the reason you can't afford the services is you have stopped making the product. That is a macroeconomic lesson for you.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 03:42 AM
    paraclete
    Nursing Homes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    it's not the nursing homes run for a profit that are a problem here. they give fine quality care .But it is expensive and ultimately the person in the nursing home ends up in a public run, urine stinkin, holding pen of a nursing home. Government run on full display.

    Really! You have government run nursing homes? No wonder you have a problem.
    What we have here is that the government gives a benefit for every nursing home patient and the patient makes up the difference, or not, perhaps, but it doesn't run nursing homes. But then we have a different philosophy of life to what is obviously common there
  • Aug 26, 2009, 03:48 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    The reality is it's only the poor people who can't afford health care and they don't contribute much of the GDP, actually they are a drag on the GDP aren't they? Not keeping up their share of making the doctors rich by increasing the take of the medical profession. I have news for you, you have been counting the wrong things in GDP. GDP is product not services and the reason you can't afford the services is you have stopped making the product. That is a macroeconomic lesson for you.
    Nonsense ;our medical device ,pharmaceuticals industries etc are the best in the world .

    Also if the concern is the poor ,then there are social systems in place in the country to account for their difficulties. As has been posted already ,our gvt provided care is a significant proportion of the overall system we have. In fact ;a large part of the costs associated with gvt provided care is one of the prime reasons that costs are high .
  • Aug 26, 2009, 06:17 AM
    tomder55

    On infant mortality rate UK

    The babies born in hospital corridors: Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices and hospital toilets | Mail Online

    Hard to believe the Brits are giving better prenatal care then we are .
  • Aug 26, 2009, 06:26 AM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    Why do you guys bother electing politicians, you should just let your local doctors elect the President
    At least doctors take oaths to do no harm.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 06:29 AM
    NeedKarma
    Please take DailyMail articles with a grain of salt - they are the National Enquirer of England. Here's more fun reading for you from that site: Femail | Mail Online
  • Aug 26, 2009, 06:50 AM
    tomder55

    I'll take it into consideration . I advise the same caution from linking with the NY Slimes or... see my posting today about CBS
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:00 AM
    spitvenom

    Here is the only thing I look at. According to the World Health Organization the US is ranked 37. Something needs to be fixed. If France is ranked number 1 then maybe we should check out what they are doing. The link below shows all the rankings.

    The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:06 AM
    NeedKarma
    In a few minutes I expect certain people here to crap all over WHO because they don't like the findings.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:23 AM
    spitvenom
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    In a few minutes I expect certain people here to crap all over WHO because they don't like the findings.

    Gee I wonder who would do that?
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:25 AM
    tomder55

    I have already said my peace about that discredited organization.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:26 AM
    spitvenom

    Right on cue!
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:27 AM
    NeedKarma
    Hahahahahahhahahahahahah!!
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:40 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    The reality is it's only the poor people who can't afford health care and they don't contribute much of the GDP, actually they are a drag on the GDP aren't they? Not keeping up their share of making the doctors rich by increasing the take of the medical profession. I have news for you, you have been counting the wrong things in GDP. GDP is product not services and the reason you can't afford the services is you have stopped making the product. That is a macroeconomic lesson for you.

    How about another little look at the numbers. Hospitals agreed to "contribute $155 billion in cost savings over 10 years" to help pay for Obamacare. IN return, the hospitals are projecting to receive about $171 billion in new dollars from the newly insured. You know, all those poor people that can't afford insurance or health care. So the hospitals are forecasting a $16 billion gain from cutting costs for Obamacare.

    Here's the kicker:

    Quote:

    But some experts wonder at the price of that political support. Alain Enthoven, a health economist at Stanford University, noted that $155 billion was only about 1.5 percent of total hospital revenue over 10 years — even before taking into account the new, larger amount of money that hospitals can expect if more people have insurance.
    $155 billion is only 1.5 percent of total revenue? That's the cost to hospitals for treating the uninsured, less than 2 percent of hospital revenue?
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:42 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    I know this debate has been raging on this Board reflecting just how emotive an issue it is but have you considered that you may not be getting the bang you think for your buck

    It seems the average person in the US spends more on health care than UK or France, sufferers a higher infant mortality rate and has a lower life expectancy. Now I know this could be considered heresy but just maybe the system is broken.

    Now please don't rush in and shoot the messenger because I post this just to get some new statistics into the debate and maybe those in the US might realise they don't live in the best of all possible worlds where health care is concerned

    Here's the problem with the statistics that you are citing... the USA and the European countries don't measure infant mortality the same way.

    In the UK and France, if a baby dies beneath a certain birth weight, it is considered never to have been born at all, and is ignored in the statistics. So the death of an infant below a certain birthweight is never taken into consideration. Also, babies that die after premature birth (regardless of weight) are not always taken into consideration in the statistics. In the USA, the statistics include births of babies of ALL WEIGHTS and all gestation periods. Under those circumstances, yes, you are going to get a disparity in the statistics. I wonder what the infant mortality rates would be if ALL BABIES BORN IN THE UK AND FRANCE were considered in their statistics.

    What the statistics also don't show is that the number of premies that are saved in the USA is MUCH HIGHER than the number saved in any other country in the world. We have the technology to save babies that are born as small as 1 pound fairly regularly, whereas in other countries such babies are ABANDONED by the medical system, and are never even considered born at all.

    So, like Babe Ruth, we have more strikeouts, but we also have more home-runs than anyone else. And the home runs FAR OUTPACE the strikeouts.

    I'd say that that's money VERY WELL spent.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 07:44 AM
    tomder55

    Well if you believe that Costa Rica (ranked 36) has a superior health care system then ours there is little left to talk about.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 08:14 AM
    speechlesstx
    Forget the infant mortality rates, here's the dirty little secret about WHO's rankings. "Health level" and "health responsiveness" only account for 37.5 percent of the ranking.

    Quote:

    Take "Financial Fairness" (FF), worth 25 percent of the total. This factor measures inequality in how much households spend on healthcare as a percentage of their income. The greater the inequality, the worse the country's performance.

    Notice that FF necessarily improves when the government shoulders more of the health spending burden, rather than relying on the private sector. To use the existing WHO rankings to justify more government involvement in healthcare is therefore to engage in circular reasoning, because the rankings are designed to favor greater government involvement. (Clinton's plan would attempt to improve the American FF score by capping insurance premiums.)

    The ostensible reason to include FF in the health index is to account for people landing in dire financial straits because of their health needs. Yet the FF factor worsens for every household that deviates from the average percentage of income spent on healthcare, regardless of whether the deviation is on the high side or low side.

    That means the FF factor doesn't just penalize a country because some households are especially likely to become impoverished from health costs; it also penalizes a country because some households are especially unlikely to become impoverished from health costs.

    The other two factors, "health distribution" and "responsiveness distribution," are no better. Together worth 37.5 percent of a country's score, these factors measure inequality in health level and responsiveness. Strictly speaking, neither measures healthcare performance, because inequality is distinct from quality of care. It's entirely possible to have a healthcare system characterized by both extensive inequality and good care for everyone.

    Suppose, for instance, that Country A has health responsiveness that is "excellent" for most citizens but merely "good" for some disadvantaged groups, while Country B has responsiveness that is uniformly "poor" for everyone. Country B would score higher than Country A in responsiveness distribution, despite Country A having better responsiveness for even its worst-off citizens.

    What if the quality of healthcare improves for half of the population, while remaining the same for the other half? This should be regarded as an unambiguous improvement: some people get better off, and no one gets worse off. But in the WHO index, the effect is ambiguous because the improvement could increase inequality.

    The WHO rankings have also been adjusted to reflect efficiency: how well a country is doing relative to how much it spends. In the media, however, this distinction is often lost.

    Costa Rica ranks higher than the United States (number 36 versus number 37), but that does not mean Costa Ricans get better healthcare than Americans. Americans most likely get better healthcare -- just not as much better as could be expected given how much we spend. If the question is health outcomes alone, without reference to spending, we should look at the unadjusted ranking, where the U.S. is number 15 and Costa Rica is number 45. (And even the number 15 rank is problematic, for all the reasons discussed above.)

    The WHO rankings implicitly take all differences in health outcomes unexplained by spending or literacy and attribute them entirely to health system performance. Nothing else, from tobacco use to nutrition to sheer luck, is taken into account. These variables were excluded largely because of underlying paternalist assumptions about the proper role of the health system.

    If the culture has a predilection for unhealthy foods, there may be little healthcare providers can do about it. Conversely, if the culture has a pre-existing preference for healthy foods, the healthcare system hardly deserves the credit. Some people are happy to give up a few potential months or even years of life in exchange for the pleasures of smoking, eating, having sex, playing sports, and so on. The WHO approach, rather than taking people's preferences as given, deems some preferences better than others, and then praises or blames the health system for them.

    Those who cite the WHO ranking to justify greater government involvement in the health system -- like the plans pitched by the leading Democratic presidential candidates -- are assuming what they're trying to prove. The WHO healthcare ranking system does not escape political bias. It advances ideological assumptions that most Americans might find questionable under the guise of objectivity.
    If the rankings are designed to favor government run health care then of course the US is going to be down the list a ways, but these rankings do NOT reflect the quality or availability of health care in the U.S.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 08:25 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    well if you believe that Costa Rica (ranked 36) has a superior health care system then ours there is little left to talk about.

    Yeah, and I'd like to see how many people go to Malta (ranked #5 by WHO) for their cancer treatments.

    Or go to Spain (ranked #7) for their heart bypass surgery.

    Or go to Colombia (ranked # 22) for a kidney transplant.

    Or to the United Arab Emirates (#27) for AIDS treatments.

    Or to Dominica (#35) for post-stroke rehab.

    Do WHO's rakings actually make sense to ANYONE? Does anyone really think that they will receive better medical care in any of these places than they would in the USA? Is everyone on the left really that intellectually dishonest that they actually buy into this report?

    And you guys still rely on this WHO report to sustain your "government-option" position on health care?

    Paraclete,

    In response to your original post, please read this:

    American Thinker: The Cost of Free Government Health Care

    It responds better, point-by-point, to the "comparative statistics" between the USA and other countries that I can. Also, I would look at some of the original sources the article cites.

    Elliot
  • Aug 26, 2009, 08:29 AM
    ETWolverine

    Steve,

    That CATO article is a great citation. I hadn't seen that one before. Thanks for posting it. I'm adding it to my arsenal.

    Elliot
  • Aug 26, 2009, 08:31 AM
    tomder55

    Besides ;WHO has not updated the ranking in almost a decade ;and has no plans to do so. Their formula is too convoluted .
  • Aug 26, 2009, 08:44 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    In response to your original post, please read this:

    American Thinker: The Cost of Free Government Health Care

    It responds better, point-by-point, to the "comparative statistics" between the USA and other countries that I can.

    That articles spews that same talking points as you've been saying since this begun. There is nothing new there. Even excon has debunked most of them.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 08:50 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Do WHO's rakings actually make sense to ANYONE? Does anyone really think that they will receive better medical care in any of these places than they would in the USA? Is everyone on the left really that intellectually dishonest that they actually buy into this report?

    Hello again, El:

    You accuse the left of being dishonest, yet you have a GLARING hole in your argument... And, it's THIS hole that's at the center of the debate... Yet, you don't address it.. I wonder who's being intellictually dishonest. Ahhhh, never mind. I KNOW who's being dishonest...

    I suppose there's a few UNINSURED people who might think that care is better in those places, because they're getting NO care here.

    You keep saying that EVERYBODY here has health care, but that just isn't so. You say people can get treated at the ER, for regular long term health care, but that just isn't so. The sick uninsured people in this country, who need regular long term health care GO WITHOUT!!

    So, keep up with claptrap. I'm here to save the day.

    excon
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:05 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    That articles spews that same talking points as you've been saying since this begun. There is nothing new there. Even excon has debunked most of them.

    Actually, NO. All he did was ignore them and hope everyone else would too. He never actually addressed any of these points.

    Elliot
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:19 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    You accuse the left of being dishonest, yet you have a GLARING hole in your argument... And, it's THIS hole that's at the center of the debate... Yet, you don't address it.. I wonder who's being intellictually dishonest. Ahhhh, never mind. I KNOW who's being dishonest...

    And what is that hole?

    Quote:

    I suppose there's a few UNINSURED people who might think that care is better in those places, because they're getting NO care here.
    But they AREN'T getting no care. They are getting care just fine, they just aren't covered by INSURANCE. Which means they are either paying out of pocket or are receiving charity.

    Quote:

    You keep saying that EVERYBODY here has health care, but that just isn't so.
    Then prove it. You keep saying that they don't and yet you have never been able to show me a case where people COULD NOT GET HEALTH CARE USING ONE OF THE OPTIONS I DESCRIBED. You keep saying there are such people out there, who have TRIED to get care using these methods and failed. But you haven't been able to cite a single case in all these months of making that claim.

    We on the right, however, have listed any number of cases where government systems have DENIED CARE to patients and those patients were left with NO OTHER OPTIONS.

    Quote:

    You say people can get treated at the ER, for regular long term health care, but that just isn't so.
    Not only is it so, but I have been a part of giving them that treatment. So has my brother, who is an MD. It happens all across the USA every day.

    Quote:

    The sick uninsured people in this country, who need regular long term health care GO WITHOUT!!
    No they don't. Not if they are willing to take one of the options that I suggest.

    Quote:

    So, keep up with claptrap. I'm here to save the day.

    Excon
    Nah, you're just here to screw up the healthcare of the 97% of Americans who have good coverage that they are satisfied with in order to engate in social engineering, excon style.

    But don't worry... it ain't going to happen. The American people see through the crap you and Obama make up to support your political agenda, and they ain't going to let the gubment get away with it.

    Elliot
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:23 AM
    ETWolverine
    BTW, for all those who argue that the American Health Care system is bankrupting Americans who can't afford their health care, here's a bit of information for you:

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/comme...uptcyRates.pdf

    Turns out that Medical-related bankruptcies in Canada, where all their medical costs are supposedly taken care of, are not any lower than they are here in the USA.

    So all those of you who think that socialized medicine is going to save you from bankruptcy, think again.

    What was that about getting the best bang for the buck?

    Elliot
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:32 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    BTW, for all those who argue that the American Health Care system is bankrupting Americans who can't afford their health care, here's a bit of information for you:

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/comme...uptcyRates.pdf

    Turns out that Medical-related bankruptcies in Canada, where all their medical costs are supposedly taken care of, are not any lower than they are here in the USA.

    Why yes they are. From one of the sources of the article:
    Quote:

    The three leading causes of personal bankruptcy in Canada

    The first one on the list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada is job loss, or reduced income in general. Losing your job or having your overtime reduced, for example, can make it increasingly difficult for you to make your debt payments.
    Faced with a job loss, one of your keys to survival is reducing your expenses as quickly as possible to free up cash and continue servicing your debts. This is of course easier said than done, since you cannot quickly reduce your rent or car payments, but remember that reducing other expenses, whenever possible, is often the key to avoiding bankruptcy.
    Another one of leading contributors to personal bankruptcy in Canada is marriage separation or divorce. Approximately one third of all people filing personal bankruptcy in Canada are either separated or divorced at the time of filing.
    It's easy to see why separation and divorce can lead to financial problems. As a couple you only have to pay rent once, and you only have one phone bill, hydro bill, and you share most other expenses. Once you are separated, you are each paying your own bills, so your expenses increase, but your income stays the same.
    If you have debts when you separate, your increased expenses may make it difficult to continue to service the debts.
    The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America.
    However, if you get sick or injured, and you are off work for a number of months, even with medical insurance your income is reduced, and that makes it more difficult to service your debts.
    But you use the Frasier Institute as your source. --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_...te#Controversy
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:36 AM
    excon

    Hello again, El:

    This is what the Lewin Group says on its website: "The Lewin Group is a premier national health care and human services consulting firm that has delivered objective analyses and strategic counsel to prominent public agencies, nonprofit organizations, industry associations and private companies across the United States for nearly 40 years. The Lewin Group does not advocate for any policy, program or legislation."

    --------------------

    This is what the Fraisier Institute says on its website: "We are an independent international research and educational organization with offices in Canada and the United States and active research ties with similar independent organizations in more than 70 countries around the world."

    We KNOW the Lewin Group is lying, because they are WHOLLY owned by United Health Care - the BIGGEST health insurer in the country... You righty's have been citing them as "independent" from the git go. Didja think we wouldn't find out?

    I don't know who owns the Frasier Institute, but I somehow doubt the veracity of their website. You, of course, believe every scrap of drivel the insurance companies dish out.

    excon
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:45 AM
    speechlesstx

    Democrats and the media aren't waiting for his body to be cold before using his passing to further their health care agenda. But in the midst of it all comes this bit of good news... Camelot is not dead.

    Barack Is The Last Kennedy Brother
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:54 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    This is what the Lewin Group says on its website: "The Lewin Group is a premier national health care and human services consulting firm that has delivered objective analyses and strategic counsel to prominent public agencies, nonprofit organizations, industry associations and private companies across the United States for nearly 40 years. The Lewin Group does not advocate for any policy, program or legislation."

    --------------------

    This is what the Fraisier Institute says on its website: "We are an independent international research and educational organization with offices in Canada and the United States and active research ties with similar independent organizations in more than 70 countries around the world."

    We KNOW the Lewin Group is lying, because they are WHOLLY owned by United Health Care - the BIGGEST health insurer in the country... You righty's have been citing them as "independent" from the git go. Didja think we wouldn't find out?

    I dunno who owns the Frasier Institute, but I somehow doubt the veracity of their website. You, of course, believe every scrap of drivel the insurance companies dish out.

    excon

    This from the guy who thinks that Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic and Colombia give better health care than the USA because the World Health Organization said so. And then STICKS to that position after the idiocy of that position is made apparent. You're going to claim that I believe "every piece of drivel"?

    Yeah... I'll take the Frazier Institute and the CATO institute any day of the week.

    Elliot
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:56 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Barack Is The Last Kennedy Brother

    Hello again, Steve:

    And, in the nick of time, don't you think?

    excon
  • Aug 26, 2009, 09:57 AM
    tomder55

    Generation 3 is lurking .
  • Aug 26, 2009, 10:00 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    This from the guy who thinks that Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic and Colombia give better health care than the USA because the World Health Organization said so.

    I've been to Costa Rica - "Pura Vida". It's wonderful. You wouldn't like it though.

    About their healthcare system, people can do more reading here:
    Costa Rica Health Care
    Health Care in Costa Rica
    Costa Rica - Health Care
  • Aug 26, 2009, 10:04 AM
    ETWolverine
    I'm sure it's a wonderful place.

    But if you had a choice between the USA and Costa Rica would you have heart surgery there or in the USA?

    I've been to the Dominican Republic. I wouldn't get a splinter removed by their medical system, much less a major medical procedure. Would you?

    Are you still going to defend the WHO report when it is so obviously WRONG?

    Elliot
  • Aug 26, 2009, 10:06 AM
    speechlesstx

    Actually I'm still trying to figure out who Obama is. The Lightworker, the Magic Negro, the new FDR, Mahatma Obama, the last Kennedy? Whoever he is he must have taken a step down in Chris Matthews' world. Now he's the "last Kennedy" where he used to give Chris a thrill up his leg because he was "bigger than Kennedy."
  • Aug 26, 2009, 10:06 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Generation 3 is lurking .

    Perhaps. But they will never have the "romance" of Bobby, JFK and the rest of them. They are just pretenders to the throne of Camelot, even if they are Kennedys.
  • Aug 26, 2009, 10:18 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Are you still going to defend the WHO report when it is so obviously WRONG?

    Hello again, El:

    YES, until you can show me more than ONE right wing American website that debunks this report that the ENTIRE WORLD thinks is right. I'm not as easy as you. It takes more than ONE source to convince me of anything. You? Not so much.

    excon

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