Good job by the Aussie Senate which defeated Cap and trade Legislation ,putting jobs ahead of token environmental gestures.Australia is a major coal user and exported and such a move would have a negative impact on the mining industry.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Australia emissions plan rejected

Giving Kevin Rudd a bloody nose is a nice side benefit. He can reintroduce the bill of course .But he would risk a new election with another defeat.

Aussie Senator Steve Fielding is a voice of reason.

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Australia is really yet to have the debate about what is driving climate change.
For years I believed, like most of us, that man made carbon dioxide emissions were the main cause of global warming.
However, over the last few months after speaking to a number of scientists both here and overseas I have discovered the science on both sides of the debate isn’t conclusive.

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Climate Change :: Senator Steve Fielding


They would like to wait until they see how countries like the US handle our cap and trade legislation. With any luck our will wither on the vine and the Aussies will follow suit.

Good show, mates. Thanks for posting this, tom... I cited the Aussies and Fielding in particular on this earlier. Glad to see they followed through.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Good job by the Aussie Senate which defeated Cap and trade Legislation ,putting jobs ahead of token environmental gestures.Australia is a major coal user and exported and such a move would have a negative impact on the mining industry.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Australia emissions plan rejected

Giving Kevin Rudd a bloody nose is a nice side benefit. He can reintroduce the bill of course .But he would risk a new election with another defeat.

Aussie Senator Steve Fielding is a voice of reason.

Climate Change :: Senator Steve Fielding


They would like to wait until they see how countries like the US handle our cap and trade legislation. With any luck our will wither on the vine and the Aussies will follow suit.

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Niiiiicccceeee.

Now if we could just get our leadership to show the same level of intestinal fortitude.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Good job by the Aussie Senate which defeated Cap and trade Legislation ,putting jobs ahead of token environmental gestures.Australia is a major coal user and exported and such a move would have a negative impact on the mining industry.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Australia emissions plan rejected

Giving Kevin Rudd a bloody nose is a nice side benefit. He can reintroduce the bill of course .But he would risk a new election with another defeat.

Aussie Senator Steve Fielding is a voice of reason.

Climate Change :: Senator Steve Fielding


They would like to wait until they see how countries like the US handle our cap and trade legislation. With any luck our will wither on the vine and the Aussies will follow suit.

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Don't get carried away, Tom, this is all political. Both major political parties have an ETS, as policy they are just dancing around the details. As for Fielding, he is an independent from a party called Family First, so he is a lone voice easily marginalised. His primary concern might be employment. Our Senate is elected on proportional representation so a double dissolution election will polarise the electorate and diminish the chances of minor parties getting a seat.

A double dissolution election is no risk for KRudd and may even be strategic so as to get reelected before the impacts of his policies bite. The opposition parties are in disarray and in no condition to fight an election on an emotive issue like climate change, in fact a double dissolution election could set up the possibility of changing the balance of power in the Senate.

We are concerned here that your legislative processes will bog down in debate and that the much needed leadership on this issue will not be forthcoming and this is why we don't expect an early international consensus with any teeth, thus the go it alone philosophy. We have the ability to produce revolutionary green technologies but our economy lacks the incentive.

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We have the ability to produce revolutionary green technologies

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Possibly

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but our economy lacks the incentive.

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Indeed ;in fact if there was a real reason to fundamentally alter the infrastructure there would be an economic incentive to do so and phony government manipulations would not be needed .

I was not aware that elections would benefit Rudd. I'll have to rethink this if that's true. He is (as Excon loves to say ) a dufus.

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We are concerned here that your legislative processes will bog down in debate

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It was bumrushed through the House of Representatives but the Senate knows they can't get it passed . So they are looking for some facesaving .

Climate Change Measure Should Be Set Aside, U.S. Senators Say - Bloomberg.com

Anyway your legislators already have the example of the European's foray into this nonsense ("emissions trading system"... ETS in place since 2005) . All they managed to do was increase costs to consumers while emissions actually increased.

The US House version called the Waxman-Markey bill is a 1400 page abortion that is 1/3 cap and trade and 2/3 all other types of regulatory intrusions on American business and private life . It would go down in history as one of the most convoluted bills ever constructed if we weren't already looking at the health care reform;the bucket list stimulus and the various bailouts /takeovers of American business.
Please don't look to us to be a model .

Thomas Crocker was a dopey student at the University of Wisconsin in the 1960s when he came up with the whole cap and trade concept (probably while he was under the influence of something exotic ).Crocker;now 73 and a retired economist and professor at the University of Wyoming says "I'm sceptical that cap-and-trade is the most effective way to go about regulating carbon".
Cap-and-Trade's Unlikely Critics: Its Creators - WSJ.com

But politicians like the Goracle ,and business people like Jeffery Immelt at GE (the parent company of NBC... the propaganda network of the President) have too much invested in the cap and trade industry to allow this opportunity to pass.

Interesting developments today, Tom, with Krudd decoupling the Emissions Targets Bill from the ETS, he has the good sense to get passed what will pass and argue later, so maybe a little smarter than dufus. He says he doesn't want a double dissolution and early election. How to lull your opponents into a false sense of security and take the heat out of the debate? He wants to be able to go to Copenhagen with something in the bag.

ETS fail because they are a license to pollute, now if they started with the premise that there would be only 50% permits available for current emissions and no compensation for the old technology polluters we would see the market get serious and maybe it would work, a real price for carbon would develop and all those stalled technologies would become economic. Unfortunately Union power here will not see it happen. I don't set much store by what the EU do, too much compromise there.

By the way have you heard of the Australian invention of a coating for roofing that turns it into a solar generator, going to be a very big market for it, that is the sort of thing I mean by innovative technology, and one thing we can do at home is paint roofs, no Chinese industry involved:D

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By the way have you heard of the Australian invention of a coating for roofing that turns it into a solar generator, going to be a very big market for it, that is the sort of thing I mean by innovative technology, and one thing we can do at home is paint roofs, no Chinese industry involved

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A quick search about the project(not sure the breakthrough occurred in Australia )revealed that the scientists were researching an unrelated project ,and, as so often happens ,stumbled upon this new product. It was not the case that the government mandated the creation of paint on solar cells. Innovation cannot be mandated by government decree. It happens on it's own time frame. And the reason there is a growing demand for solar cells is that they are becoming cost competitve on the open market.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

A quick search about the project(not sure the breakthrough occured in Australia )revealed that the scientists were researching an unrelated project ,and, as so often happens ,stumbled upon this new product. It was not the case that the government mandated the creation of paint on solar cells. Innovation cannot be mandated by government decree. It happens on it's own time frame. And the reason there is a growing demand for solar cells is that they are becoming cost competitve on the open market.

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Never suggested it was mandated just innovative and will be commercialised by an Australian company. I expect that just like everything useful we invent a multinational will come along and buy it out and bury it. By the way solar cells are not competitive with solar paint so dream on

I don't have much time for Senator Fielding or the Liberal Party (our righty's) but I certainly agree that there needs to be much more debate on this.

In fact Australia produces just 1% of the worlds carbon dioxide emissions, so even if we completely shut down the country it would have no impact on global climate change. Why the rush? Its simply so Rudd can strut around with his chest out at Copenhagen.

I for one hope the opposition party call the Government's bluff and take them on at a double dissolution election. It will make way for a meaningful debate on the matter before such drastic legislation is introduced. However it doesn't appear as though this will happen. A compromise bill will be submitted to parliament before November.

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Originally Posted by Skell

I don't have much time for Senator Fielding or the Liberal Party (our righty's) but I certainly agree that there needs to be much more debate on this.

In fact Australia produces just 1% of the worlds carbon dioxide emissions, so even if we completely shut down the country it would have no impact on global climate change. Why the rush?? Its simply so Rudd can strut around with his chest out at Copenhagen.

I for one hope the opposition party call the Government's bluff and take them on at a double dissolution election. It will make way for a meaningful debate on the matter before such drastic legislation is introduced. However it doesn't appear as though this will happen. A compromise bill will be submitted to parliament before November.

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Don't get carried away here, there could be nothing worse than the Labor Party with an absolute majority. The last time we had a government with an absolute majority we got Work Choices; a very poor piece of legislation which ultimately cost that government an election and plunged us into the outer darkness of Krudd. Have you seen the latest, Wong thinks an ETS will only add 0.1% to the cost of food. In a pig ear!

Checks and balances are important, and it may be that an ETS will ultimately prove not to be the way to tackle climate change. Now if krudd would just turn off all these unnecessary stimulus packages, Australia could get back to the business of being the best country on Earth

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Now if krudd would just turn off all these unnecessary stimulus packages, Australia could get back to the business of being the best country on Earth

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Same problem here ,any recovery at the end of this downturn is going to be stifled by excess government spending . They can't find projects for most of the committed dollars so obviously they should not be spent. I hear 70% of your stimulus remains unspent.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Same problem here ,any recovery at the end of this downturn is going to be stifled by excess government spending . They can't find projects for most of the committed dollars so obviously they should not be spent. I hear 70% of your stimulus remains unspent.

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I must be living in a vacuum, but I know of few big projects that have started. Shovel ready is not a concept we embrace here. They are busy with small local projects like upgrading school halls and giving computers to children and building a high speed broadband between Tasmania and the mainland, why I will never know. The building program for aboriginal housing is in tatters with not a single house built, and funding has been withdrawn for solar on residential roofs but the handouts went well and vanished without a trace:)

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Originally Posted by Skell

In fact Australia produces just 1% of the worlds carbon dioxide emissions, so even if we completely shut down the country it would have no impact on global climate change. Why the rush?? Its simply so Rudd can strut around with his chest out at Copenhagen.

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What a fool I am I didn't see it before, the way to curb carbon emissions is to shut down Australia. We may only be 1% of emissions but how much of it do we fuel with our exports, possibly 25% an immediate shut down of Australia would shut down China to a significant extent, this would stop the flow of cheap exports to the USA and Europe and cause a resurgence in their industries which would be clean and carbon free, of course, why didn't I see it before, the solution is in our hands, Advance Australia Fair

Ok! Garrett and Wong; here's your chance to show what you are truly made of.:cool::D

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Don't get carried away here, there could be nothing worse than the Labor Party with an absolute majority. The last time we had a government with an absolute majority we got Work Choices; a very poor piece of legislation which ultimately cost that government an election and plunged us into the outer darkness of Krudd. Have you seen the latest, Wong thinks an ETS will only add 0.1% to the cost of food. In a pig ear!

Checks and balances are important, and it may be that an ETS will ultimately prove not to be the way to tackle climate change. Now if krudd would just turn off all these unnecessary stimulus packages, Australia could get back to the business of being the best country on Earth

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That's exactly what I don't want. Even though opinion polls don't suggest it, I actually think that should Labor try to take the current bill to an election they may very well be defeated. It is very hard for governments to win elections, let alone a double dissolution, on tax reform. Remember John Hewson. Keating stuck it to him.

I actually feel given proper debate that Turnbull could push Rudd all the way in an election on this.

I'm not a cut and dried Labor man. Im a swinging voter and to be frank I'm not a fan of this piece of legislation as it is. Hence my comment that I hope the Liberals call Rudd's bluff on this and actually stand their ground and not cave to pressure and submit. IN saying that I don't want the right back in power here anytime soon.

I think the jury is still out on the stimulus packages. Our economy is performing better than any other in the developed world and an argument can certainly be made that these stimuli packages have been a major contributor to us so far staying out of recession.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

What a fool I am I didn't see it before, the way to curb carbon emissions is to shut down Australia. We may only be 1% of emissions but how much of it do we fuel with our exports, possibly 25% an immediate shut down of Australia would shut down China to a significant extent, this would stop the flow of cheap exports to the USA and Europe and cause a resurgence in their industries which would be clean and carbon free, of course, why didn't I see it before, the solution is in our hands, Advance Australia Fair

Ok! Garrett and Wong; here's your chance to show what you are truly made of.:cool::D

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Its hard to tell if your having a crack at me or not. I think we agree that these measures are not necessary. I'm certainly not arguing for a shutdown. Although we are a huge exporter of coal our carbon emissions are still insignificant so I certainly see no need to rush any piece of legislation through parliament relating to it.

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Originally Posted by Skell

Its hard to tell if your having a crack at me or not. I think we agree that these measures are not necessary. I'm certainly not arguing for a shutdown. Although we are a huge exporter of coal our carbon emissions are still insignificant so i certainly see no need to rush any piece of legislation through parliament relating to it.

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Hey, It's just my aussie sense of humor but I mean it, if we were serious, we would dismantle our polluting industries, shut down our mines, and go back to eating bush tucker. We could have an immediate 25% cut in emissions.

Look there isn't any doubt the ETS is a crock, a political device to make it look like we are actually taking action but unless they reduce the cap severely it will not have much impact and it is a tax measure, a tax on carbon.

The opposition doesn't believe they could win a double dissolution election and any any case Turnbull, note the bull, is committed to an ETS. His merchant banking background tells him this is good way for the big end of town to make money and who cares about the rank and file who are Labor supporters anyway :D

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Originally Posted by Skell

I think the jury is still out on the stimulus packages. Our economy is performing better than any other in the developed world and an argument can certainly be made that these stimuli packages have been a major contributor to us so far staying out of recession.

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The give away might have helped a little but $9 billion of the original $11 billion vanished without a trace, probably eaten up in debt reduction, the second had a little more impact but as to the big, big, stimulus for industry, I doubt it's had much impact yet. Our economy is performing better because we have no manufacturing industries left they have all migrated to China, so unemployment doesn't grow as quickly as in the US and Europe, some industries like tourism are doing it tough, but we produce our own food and still export a lot of minerals, but there is a lag so watchout for the sting in the tail

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Hey, It's just my aussie sense of humor

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Of course. My mistake. I think all this time hanging around our american friends stopped me from identifying it. ;)