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-   -   Cash for Clunkers works, so Republicans say Nooooo (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=383283)

  • Aug 4, 2009, 07:01 AM
    excon
    Cash for Clunkers works, so Republicans say Nooooo
    Hello:

    I don't know. Here's a plan from Washington that's working... So, the Republicans want to end it. It's kind of simple, really. You turn in an old car that get's BAD gas mileage, and you get around a $4,000 check towards the purchase of a new car...

    Since the program has been going, car dealerships have been busy for the first time in months, the average milage increase between the cars turned in, and the ones going out is 9 miles per gallon... NINE MILES PER GALLON! And, the checks offer immediate stimulus.

    Yet, the Republicans want to kill it...

    excon
  • Aug 4, 2009, 07:32 AM
    speechlesstx

    You're going to have to offer us some quotes or something, ex. What did they say?
  • Aug 4, 2009, 07:56 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    You're going to have to offer us some quotes or something, ex. What did they say?

    Hello Steve:

    Happy to oblige. Because it's been such a hit, it's up for renewal. Speaking about that, Senator Jim Demint of South Carolina said, "This is CRAZY to rush this thing again... We gotta SLOW it down." John McCain remains "strongly opposed".

    excon
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:01 AM
    inthebox

    So should the taxpayor continue to subsidize the auto buying sector of the economy?

    With tax revenue down, can taxpayors of this and future generations continue to subsidize increasing government spending?

    Where does it end?

    Is owning a vehicle now a "right?"



    G&P
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:09 AM
    Synnen

    To play devil's advocate here---I'd rather pay for someone to get a new car that saves on gas--which is beneficial for EVERYONE, including the environment--than on one more pregnant teenager, or bailing out banks that made stupid decisions regarding who got a mortgage to begin with.
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:09 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    So should the taxpayor continue to subsidize the auto buying sector of the economy?

    Hello in:

    I don't think those are the right questions to ask. I could, of course, in reply, ask you should the tax payer continue to support the home buying public with a subsidy that allows them to deduct the interest?? Renters don't get squat! And, THAT subsidy, by the way, has been going on a lot longer than our present crisis.

    The question is, in my view, as long as it's agreed that government should BE the spender of last resort, and I agree that it should, then shouldn't the money be spent in the most POSITIVE way possible?? I think it should, and I think this is a VERY positive way.

    excon
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:10 AM
    speechlesstx
    Ah, at least I now have somewhere to start...

    Quote:

    DEMINT: This is another bill that congressman and senators didn’t even read. The federal government getting in the used car business -- and we think, “Hey, this is working great.” But my children and grandchildren are going to have to pay for these cars, and we’re helping auto dealers while there are thousands of other small businesses that aren’t getting the help. The role of the federal government is not to run the used car business. And it’s clear. You can look at Amtrak or the post office, and now “cash for clunkers.” The federal government went bankrupt in one week in the used car business, and now they want to run our health care system. I just think this is a great example of the stupidity that’s coming out of Washington right now, and I think Americans realize the numbers that we’re throwing around don’t work. We estimated this would cost $1 billion. Now they’re saying we need $2 billion more. Our children and grandchildren can’t afford to make these car dealers well right now.

    WALLACE: Real quickly, because it sailed through the House in a day -- it’s going to come up to the Senate next week -- are you going to be able to block it?

    DEMINT: Well, we’re definitely going to debate it. And I’ve heard John McCain is going to stand up and try to stop it. And I’m going to work with him every way I can, because...

    WALLACE: That means a filibuster?

    DEMINT:... it makes no sense. I don’t know what it means right now, Chris, but this is crazy to try to rush this thing through again while they’re trying to rush through health care, and they want to get on to cap and trade electricity tax. We’ve got to slow this thing down.
    I think it's crazy, too. But maybe that's because I need a new truck and my old one doesn't qualify, it's not a "clunker" it's an "antique" according to their rules. Way I see it a few thousand pounds of scrap metal is worth about the same whether it's 25 years old or 30. And mine is probably WORSE for the environment than the ones that do qualify.

    And so Demint and McCain think this is crazy, is it also crazy for them to fight for a few thousand car dealerships being cut loose by Government Motors and Chrysler?
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:18 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I think it's crazy, too. But maybe that's because I need a new truck and my old one doesn't qualify,

    Hello again, Steve:

    I think you're right... But, if it's CRAZY, and it does't work, why did you look into participating in it?

    excon
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:18 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello:

    I dunno. Here's a plan from Washington that's working.... So, the Republicans want to end it. It's kinda simple, really. You turn in an old car that get's BAD gas mileage, and you get around a $4,000 check towards the purchase of a new car....

    Since the program has been going, car dealerships have been busy for the first time in months, the average milage increase between the cars turned in, and the ones going out is 9 miles per gallon.... NINE MILES PER GALLON!! And, the checks offer immediate stimulus.

    Yet, the Republicans want to kill it....

    excon

    First of all, according to the reports I have read, not one single deal has actually been approved by the program. All of the dealers are still waiting for their approvals and reimbursements and they say that it is really hard to get approval.

    Second, twice now the project was underfunded. The government assumed that there would be enough money to last for several months... the first time the money lasted 5 days. The second time it lasted two weeks. Talk about mismanagement of a budget.

    So exactly how are you defining this as a program that "works"?

    It's funny... your definitions of "success" and "failure" are about as skewed as can possibly be. Iraq, in which pretty much every goal set by Bush has been met and which is experiencing relative peace, is a failure. But cash for clunkers, which has twice now had to shut down because of a lack of funding and in which no dealer has yet been paid for the program, you define this as a success.

    As for the "9 miles per gallon"... pure BS. You are misinterpreting what one proponent (I forget who, but it might have been Boxer) said about the program... she said that on average the cars being purchased under the program have an IMPROVED EFFICIENCY of 9 mpg over the cars being traded in. She did not say that the clunkers were doing 9 mpg. There haven't been cars that get 9 mpg on the road since the 1920s. The worst cars on the road are getting better mileage than that. Anything that inefficient would never have been approved by an emmissions inspector.

    One of the main problems of the program is that it's going to cause people who otherwise would not be buying a car to purchase one and have to borrow in order to buy it. People are going to borrow money that they can't afford to borrow. The program incentivizes unnecessary borrowing... the very thing that got us into the mortgage crisis. The result won't be as bad... the dollar amounts are much lower, for one thing. But I would think that you'd be upset by anything that causes people to be subjected to "predatory lenders" like auto lenders and their pet repo-men.

    Elliot
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:24 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    I think you're right... But, if it's CRAZY, and it does't work, why did you look into participating in it?

    Um, my momma didn't raise no fool. If someone wants to help pay for my new truck who am I to refuse? :D
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:26 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    the average milage increase between the cars turned in, and the ones going out is 9 miles per gallon.... NINE MILES PER GALLON!!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    she said that on average the cars being purchased under the program have an IMPROVED EFFICIENCY of 9 mpg over the cars being traded in. She did not say that the clunkers were doing 9 mpg. There haven't been cars that get 9 mpg on the road since the 1920s.

    Hello again, El:

    Like cutting boards, I suggest reading twice before commenting.

    excon
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:33 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    There haven't been cars that get 9 mpg on the road since the 1920s.

    There's a 2002 GMC Safari sitting in my driveway that is used regularly and passes all tests but gets less than 9 mpg in the city (15 long-distance).
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:34 AM
    ETWolverine
    excon,
    I apologize. I misread your post.
  • Aug 4, 2009, 09:23 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Um, my momma didn't raise no fool. If someone wants to help pay for my new truck who am I to refuse? :D

    Hello again, Steve:

    That "someone" would be ME! Why should I pay for your truck? I drive a Volvo, and I recycle. Why is it fair for me to buy your truck, when you don't want to pay for my kidney? What's up with that?

    If the Republicans as a group really wanted to KILL these programs, when the government opened the cash window, they wouldn't be in line.

    excon
  • Aug 4, 2009, 09:30 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    That "someone" would be ME! Why should I pay for your truck? I drive a Volvo, and I recycle. Why is it fair for me to buy your truck, when you don't wanna pay for my kidney? What's up with that?

    If the Republicans as a group really wanted to KILL these programs, when the government opened the cash window, they wouldn't be in line.

    excon

    I agree. The same reasoning applies to both programs.

    I happen to be against both of 'em... they both suck.
  • Aug 4, 2009, 09:31 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    That "someone" would be ME! Why should I pay for your truck? I drive a Volvo, and I recycle. Why is it fair for me to buy your truck, when you don't wanna pay for my kidney? What's up with that?

    If the Republicans as a group really wanted to KILL these programs, when the government opened the cash window, they wouldn't be in line.

    And that's my complaint as well, I don't want to pay for your kidney or your new truck. But that's the problem with government entitlements... when they give away stuff everyone gets in line. This CARS thing was a done deal, if I need a new truck and don't have the money I'd be a fool to not get a few thousand bucks for a truck I couldn't sell for a thousand anywhere else.
  • Aug 4, 2009, 02:30 PM
    speechlesstx
    Here's a little something to think about. After 8 years - actually it's still continuing to this day - of posturing over the ruthlessness of Karl Rove, who can blame the Republicans for pushing back against the "fist to the nose" tactics of the Obama administration and Rahmbo?

    Rep. Issa fired off a letter to Rahm pushing back at him today...

    Quote:

    Following reports that White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has been orchestrating an effort to intimidate members of Congress and Governors who raise legitimate concerns regarding the effectiveness of the stimulus, House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform Ranking Member Darrell Issa (R-CA) sent a letter to Emanuel saying “While this type of scare tactic may work In Chicago, it will not work to intimidate me or other Members of the United States Congress.”

    “I and others have dared to bring these facts to the attention of President Obama, the Congress and the American people,” Issa wrote. “You’ve unfortunately reacted by once again resorting to the playbook of the Chicago political machine.”

    Last month, Politico reported that Emanuel had “launched a coordinated effort to jam” Senator Kyl and other Administration critics… “[A]fter seeing Kyl and House Minority Whip Eric Cantor (R-VA) again paint the legislation as a failure on Sunday talk shows, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel directed that the letters from the Cabinet secretaries be sent to [Governor] Brewer, according to two administration officials.”

    Issa noted, “The fact that the letters were coordinated by you to maximize the level of intimidation is supported by the timing, structure, and content of each letter. Not only were the four letters all sent the day following Senator Kyl’s remarks, but they were also remarkably similar in tone and sentence structure.”

    Letter from Ray LaHood, Secretary of Transportation:

    On Sunday, Arizona Senator Jon Kyl publicly questioned whether the stimulus is working and stated that he wants to cancel projects that aren’t presently underway. I believe the stimulus has been very effective in creating job opportunities throughout the country. However, if you prefer to forfeit the money we are making available to your state, as Senator Kyl suggests, please let me know [emphasis added].

    Letter from Ken Salazar, Secretary of the Interior:

    Some key Republican leaders in Congress have publicly questioned whether the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act is working and suggested cancelling all projects that are not currently in progress. I believe they are wrong. The stimulus funds provided through the Recovery Act are a very effective way to create job opportunities throughout the Country. However, if you prefer to forfeit the money we are making available to Arizona, please let me know [emphasis added].


    “At what point do you believe your practice of Chicago-style politics violates a public official’s right to speak out in favor of alternative policies,” Issa asks. “The American people have a right to know what role you played in developing the threatening letters to Governor Brewer and whether you intend to continue to engage in these tactics in the future.”

    In order to assist the Committee with its investigation of this issue, please provide the following information by close of business on Tuesday, August 11, 2009:

    1. Your response to Politico’s report that “White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel directed that the letters from the Cabinet secretaries be sent to [Governor] Brewer, according to two administration officials.”

    2. A full and complete explanation of the development of the four July 13 letters from the cabinet secretaries to Governor Brewer, including but not limited to the role you or any other White House official played in writing the letters or encouraging the writing of the letters.

    3. All records and communications between you and Secretary LaHood, Secretary Salazar, Secretary Donovan, and Secretary Vilsack referring or relating to the decision to send the July 13 letters to Governor Brewer.

    4. A full and complete explanation of the role of the Democratic National Committee and the White House Office of Political Affairs in authoring, encouraging, facilitating, or directing the four July 13 letters from the cabinet secretaries to Governor Brewer.


    You can view a copy of the full letter to Emanuel by clicking here.
    I think I'd say no, too.
  • Aug 4, 2009, 05:17 PM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello in:

    I don't think those are the right questions to ask. I could, of course, in reply, ask you should the tax payer continue to support the home buying public with a subsidy that allows them to deduct the interest???? Renters don't get squat! And, THAT subsidy, by the way, has been going on a lot longer than our present crisis.

    The question is, in my view, as long as it's agreed that government should BE the spender of last resort, and I agree that it should, then shouldn't the money be spent in the most POSITIVE way possible??? I think it should, and I think this is a VERY positive way.

    excon

    Apples to apples, cars to cars and houses to houses.

    Renters don't pay [ direct porperty taxes ]
    How many renters actually improve or maintain the place they live in compared to if one owns a home ?

    Isn't the $8000 first time home buyer TAX CREDIT another new subsidy, and even with historically low interest rates, the housing market is barely improving.
    Hey was it not the government's messing around with the housing market via things like CRA and Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac, a huge part of the current housing bubble and collapse?

    In the short term [ 1 week , ha ha ] this is good, but what is the long term out look, a repeat with a car bubble and collapse ?





    G&P
  • Aug 4, 2009, 05:34 PM
    earl237
    You Americans sure are lucky getting $4500 for old cars. There is a program called retire your ride in Canada and I only got $300 for getting rid of my old car. Rock On!
  • Aug 4, 2009, 07:02 PM
    N0help4u

    Republicans aren't saying no they are sitting back watching how it is a shamble with more vouchers out than money available.
    If it works great but look at the fiasco now

    Scrap yards aren't liking it
    YouTube - Scrap yards not crazy about "Clunkers"

    There are videos on YouTube to turn your vehicle into a clunket to get the money
  • Aug 4, 2009, 07:38 PM
    450donn

    How many of these saps are turning in a car that they can afford to buy something that they cannot afford to pay for? Why do we have to say thanks to the auto workers for putting that dunderhead in office? This is simply another tax payers funded thanks to the auto workers for their votes in November. Wasn't the 500 million buyout enough already?
  • Aug 4, 2009, 07:56 PM
    andrewc24301
    Well, for me, the only logical way to make this work, would be if I had just purchased a brand new gas guzzler, with many years still left to pay on it. Then I could trade it in for a more fuel effient vehicle if I wanted to, and take advantage of the tax credit.

    But I maintain it's still better for my "personal economy" to stick with my clunker.

    But to be fair, the government is not "making" people trade in cars. It's still optional.

    What I see as the debatable point is it's another example of billions or dollars being thrown around.

    WE ALL will be penalized for this spending, be it good spending or bad. The country is long out of money, and we are on borrowed time. Even if Obama doesn't raise ANY taxes, rest assured, if this massive government spending doesn't slow down, inflation will have our asses, and we may not be paying a $3 tax on a $1 loaf of bread, but we will be paying $5.50 for the loaf anyway due to inflation.
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:08 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by andrewc24301 View Post
    What I see as the debatable point is it's another example of billions or dollars being thrown around.

    Hello a:

    This isn't ANOTHER billion or so. It's the SAME billion or so that was already authorized in the stimulus. And, if they're going to throw it around, throwing at THIS program, which sells cars, reduces our need for foreign oil, reduces pollution, and employs people, ain't a bad place to throw it.

    It needs to be reemphasized that the government is spending this money to PREVENT The Great Depression II. If you didn't think he government should have stimulated the economy, then you're not going to like this program no matter what.

    But, if you're a believer in the notion that the government needed to spend because NOBODY else was, then this is a GOOD program.

    excon
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:23 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    there are videos on youtube to turn your vehicle into a clunket to get the money

    I like that, "clunket" -- sort of like a "clunkette"?
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:27 PM
    N0help4u

    :( I can't be perfect ALL the time can I?
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:30 PM
    andrewc24301

    Well ex,

    I hope you are correct, because Obama is really playing his cards now. If this money we spend doesn't work, then we will still be left with a troubled economy and high inflation to boot.

    I'm confident, this presidential term will end one of two ways, on a healthy road to recovery, or a second depression.

    I don't think there will be any middle ground, there is too much at stake.

    Now if you REALLY want to save at the pump- get a Scooter. I had one once, loved it. Drove it all over the place. Got 100 MPG on it.

    Disadvantage is, you can't drive it on the interstate.

    I only sold it because my family would fuss and carry on when ever I would go for one of my long country rides on it.

    But it was so nice, put three dollars worth of gas in it, and ride it all day.

    You can get one for about $1,000 brand new. If I had to drive my own vehicle to and from work, I'd be riding one of these.
  • Aug 4, 2009, 08:54 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by andrewc24301 View Post
    Now if you REALLY want to save at the pump- get a Scooter. I had one once, loved it. Drove it all over the place. Got 100 MPG on it.

    Hello again, andrew:

    Had me an Allstate Super Cruisair when I was 14. Cost me $300 back then. Crashed it and broke my arm.

    excon
  • Aug 5, 2009, 03:16 AM
    tomder55
    Ex I thought you had some business savvy.

    Here you have dealers filling their inventories;putting major $$ down on advertising ,trading for cars they normally would not touch ,wrecking them instead of resale,fronting the $4500 to the customer from their own pockets,sometimes matching the gvt. Program with additional incentives... all on the promise that the gvt. Would reimburse $4500 on a timely basis (you do understand cash flow right ?).

    Now a couple of weeks into the program most have not seen any money from the gvt. And have no reasonable expectation that they will see it any time soon. The gvt. Instead needs more emergency funding for the program with a refusal to release any adequate accounting the billion already in the kitty.

    As I have already mentioned elsewhere this program is hammer time for the used car ,and parts business . Lets say you have people like Andrew and Saph who can't afford to get in the program or have done the calculations and decided to keep their clunkers on the road. What do they do for parts when most of that business is recycling scrap ? This plan destroys one sector of the economy to give a theoretical temporary boost to another .This plan would make Frederic Bastiat proud.

    And yes, it is at best temporary. Recall when the car companies did the employee discount incentive.That program temporarily brought up the sales volume .But afterwards ,everyone who was going to buy a car had already purchased them under the program ,and a big sales slump occurred.

    Only someone reading the stuff from lib bloggers(or listening to the Prez.) could think that computers crashing ;web sites with the wrong information ,dealers in the hock for hundreds of thousands of dollars ,and taxpayers in the hock for another $3 Billion means the program is working .Yet ,when I think about it ;wasting a billion in record time must be a libs wet dream.

    [I donated my clunker last month to a charitable organization that cleans them up a bit and auctions them]
  • Aug 5, 2009, 05:19 AM
    NeedKarma
    Jon Stewart details the process by which a Fox News talking point seed is planted and fertilized before coming to life (in this case Cash for Clunkers):
    Jon Stewart Breaks Down Fox's Outrage Generating Ecosystem | Indecision Forever | Comedy Central

    Canadian link: The Daily Show with Jon Stewart : August 3, 2009
  • Aug 5, 2009, 05:38 AM
    inthebox

    I love the way Stewart , just splices out seconds of different clips to make a point.

    Sadly funny is his reference to "greenbacks for grannies" program.

    He is hilarious with whatever cah for... segment.



    Thanks


    G&P
  • Aug 5, 2009, 05:46 AM
    NeedKarma
    Did you notice how he showed that those town hall disruptions are actually organized by paid lobbyists, in coordination with Fox News. TPM has been covering it: Industry-Backed Anti-Health Care Reform Group: Yeah, We're Packing And Disrupting The Health Care Town Halls | TPMDC

    Yes, Stewart does do a good job as well.
  • Aug 5, 2009, 06:39 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Did you notice how he showed that those town hall disruptions are actually organized by paid lobbyists, in coordination with Fox News. TPM has been covering it: Industry-Backed Anti-Health Care Reform Group: Yeah, We're Packing And Disrupting The Health Care Town Halls | TPMDC

    Yes, Stewart does do a good job as well.

    Really?

    The DNC put out a memo making that claim yesterday. Robert Gibbs made that claim as well.

    So... Who is doing the organizing? Who has gotten paid to show up at a town hall meeting? Cany anyone name names?

    Perhaps instead of trying to claim "conspiracy" where none exists, the Dems might instead try finding answers to the questions being asked at these meetings. And if they can't adequately answer the questions, perhaps they should amend the health care bills or withdraw their support until the answers are made available. And perhaps the Dems should try organizing themselves instead of worrying about how the Reps are organizing themselves.

    When Sybellius tries to avoid answering basic questions about the health care plan she supports by claiming she's not a member of Congress, there's a problem, and it ain't with the fact that the meetings are being packed by opponents of the legislation.

    When Arlen Speculum claims that decisions on a 1000+ page piece of legislation that affects 20% of the economy need to be made "quickly", but can't explain WHY, there's a problem, and it isn't with the fact that meetings are being packed by opponents of the legislation.

    When the Administration can't get their position straight on whether they intend to raise taxes or not in order to pay for the budget deficits and national debt caused by this spending and all the other spending this government has done, there's a problem, and it isn't with the fact that meetings are being packed by opponents of the legislation.

    If the Dems had answers to these questions, it wouldn't matter whether someone tried to pack the town hall meetings or not. But they don't. And so regular citizens are becoming angry that their questions aren't being answered.

    After months of Obama packing his town hall meetings with those who support his positions, and after months cherry picking questions from those who support his legislation and that demonstrate the riteousness of his positions, he and the Dems are finally having to start answering hard questions, and they don't like it.

    These town hall meetings are being packed by organizations. They're being packed by regular Americans who have serious questions and no longer are willing to accept the propaganda and careful engineering of Obama's press managers at his press conferences.

    After all the organized pressure (read: threats) put on elected officials by Rahmbo behind the scenes, and after the kid-gloves treatment of Obama by the press and the engineering of all of Obama's press events, it's nice to see some hard questions being asked, and to see some elected officials being forced to question their positions.

    It's called DEMOCRACY. It's called FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. And at least for now, they still exist in this country. People are demanding an accounting from their elected officials. That's how things work in a democratic society.

    Elliot
  • Aug 5, 2009, 06:40 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Did you notice how he showed that those town hall disruptions are actually organized by paid lobbyists, in coordination with Fox News. TPM has been covering it: Industry-Backed Anti-Health Care Reform Group: Yeah, We're Packing And Disrupting The Health Care Town Halls | TPMDC

    Just one more thing to demonstrate the utter hypocrisy of the left...

    Quote:

    Democrats would like to play the victim card in response to the hostile pushback against their proposed government takeover of the US healthcare system. The word has gone out from Sen. Democratic Whip Durbin to a raft of lefty blogs to discredit anti-ObamaCare critics and protesters as vicious mobs ginned up by “lobbyist-run groups” like Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks (Josh Marshall gets bonus points for going all the way with the Nazi allusion). From lefty blogs, the message goes directly to the Politico’s Glenn Thrush, Keith Olbermann and CBS News — though CBS conceded that the “turnouts also reflect the real fear over the increased taxes and government controls that are part of the health bills being considered in Congress.”

    The role of established conservative groups may be more of following and facilitating the protesters. But even if such groups are becoming more involved in organizing opposition to ObamaCare, the hypocrisy here is rather staggering, given the amount of astroturf involved in trying to sell ObamaCare to an increasingly resistant public. As Michelle Malkin noted upon the launch of the lefty campaign:

    On Thursday, a national “grassroots” coalition called Health Care for America Now (HCAN) will march on Capitol Hill to demand universal healthcare. The ground troops won’t have to march very far. HCAN, you see, is no heartland network. It is headquartered at 1825 K Street in Washington, DC — smack dab in the middle of Beltway lobby land.

    In fact, 1825 K Street is Ground Zero for a plethora of “progressive” groups subsidized by anti-war, anti-Republican, Big Nanny special interests. Around Washington, the office complex is known as “The Other K Street.” The Washington Post noted in 2007 that “its most prominent tenants form an abbreviated who’s who of well-funded allies of the Democratic Party….Big money from unions such as the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, as well as the Internet-fueled MoveOn, has provided groups like those at 1825 K Street the wherewithal to mount huge campaigns.”

    MoveOn, of course, is the recreational political vehicle of radical liberal sugar daddy George Soros. The magnate’s financial fingerprints are all over the HCAN coalition, which includes MoveOn, the action fund of the Center for American Progress (a Soros think tank), and the Campaign for America’s Future (a pro-welfare state lobbying outfit).
    Indeed, HCAN includes all of the aforementioned groups, plus the AFL-CIO, ACORN and more. HCAN is conducting a joint campaign with Organizing for America (OFA), the Democratic National Committee-run vestiges of President Obama’s campaign. The astroturf has been on public display at events like Pres. Obama’s healthcare town hall meeting in Northern Virginia, where all of the live questions came from members of SEIU, HCAN, and OFA. Heading into the August recess, the White House and the Congressional Democratic Leadership are working in close coordination with outside groups, including but not limited to, HCAN, Families USA, AFSCME, SEIU, and AARP.

    If there is anyone putting their own interests ahead of those they claim to represent, it is the AARP. If there is anyone who should not be whining about vocal anti-Obamacare protests, it is the muscle for money crowd at SEIU and ACORN. If there is anyone who knows about shouting down their critics, it is OFA. If there is anyone without standing to complain about activists getting in people’s faces, it is Pres. Obama.

    The Community Organizer in Chief, advised by master astroturfer David Axelrod, has amassed a campaign that dwarfs the efforts of the Right. But they are currently outnumbered and out-messaged on a shoe-string budget, primarily because of the merits of the issue. And that, more than anything, is what has the Left demonizing dissent from ObamaCare.
    And don't accuse me of not citing my sources. Since Karl's post, Huffpo has joined in on the smear campaign as well. And perhaps even more disturbing is the White House Ministry of Propaganda is looking for snitches.

    Try again, NK.
  • Aug 5, 2009, 06:45 AM
    speechlesstx

    And one more thing, it was a Republican that co-sponsored the legislation and the main purpose was to get clunkers off the street and get drivers into more fuel efficient vehicles, not rescue auto dealers. In fact, fuel efficiency is mentioned roughly 50 times in the bill.
  • Aug 5, 2009, 07:09 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Try again, NK.

    Dear Steve,
    Read your buddy ET's post above yours. Apparently packing the hall with organizations is OK, just like in the 60s.
  • Aug 5, 2009, 07:20 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Perhaps instead of trying to claim "conspiracy" where none exists, the Dems might instead try finding answers to the questions being asked at these meetings.

    Hello again, El:

    These aren't meetings, and there are no questions. They're planned disruptions... And, if you believe they're spontaneous, I'm accepting bids on the bridge your cross each morning.

    excon
  • Aug 5, 2009, 07:32 AM
    speechlesstx
    Ex and NK, you act as if planned disruptions and packing the hall is a bad thing. When the left does it it's democracy in action. When the right gets out it's a threat to democracy or "mob rule" as the DNC calls it. Oh, and I repeat for the third time, this White House is looking for snitches. You guys need to open your minds and your eyes.
  • Aug 5, 2009, 07:40 AM
    spitvenom

    I just read the memo sent out by Bob Macguffie These are organized disruptions. So instead of having an a serious discussion Bob is pretty much telling the people to act like children at these town halls. How do these people expect to be taken seriously? It makes the right (not the people on here) look crazier and more childish by the day. Here is a link to the memo if you didn't read it.

    Memo Details Co-ordinated Anti-Reform Harrassment Strategy | TPM Document Collection
  • Aug 5, 2009, 07:55 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Dear Steve,
    Read your buddy ET's post above yours. Apparently packing the hall with organizations is ok, just like in the 60s.

    You clearly didn't read what I wrote.

    Elliot
  • Aug 5, 2009, 08:11 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    These town hall meetings are being packed by organizations. They're being packed by regular Americans ...

    This is what you wrote ET.

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