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Hello:
Let's say there is a confrontation between a citizen and a cop... Who, between the two, is entitled to respect by the other??
Me?? I believe the citizen is. After all, the citizen is the sovereign and the cop works for him... However, I believe those folks of the right wing persuasion would say that we should kiss the cops rear end no matter what.
You?
excon
I wish it were that way but here it's usually the citizen getting screwwed over royally by the cop.
I don't argue with them anymore, just take my ticket and drive away.
Last time I argued I had an extra point deducted and a higher fine than usual. :rolleyes:
Yeah at one time it was that way but now the cops are rookie thug with a chip on their shoulder types that will stop you for suspicion and throw you against your car wall fence or whatever.
Tell you shut up if you try to ask a simple question like WHY? Then you go into court and the Judge and your lawyer automatically takes the cops side. Then the lawyer says yeah you can fight it but what's the use because when it is the cops word against you who do you think the Judge is going to believe. So if you want to waste your time and money then go right ahead.
You wonder why they get away with it?
Because THEY CAN.
By law you have the freedom of speech to cuss at a cop
By reality it only gets you in deeper ka-ka
I remember a time when cops rode you home if you were drunk
Now they throw you in jail for drunk walking.
The cops are getting so bad that even the right wings are getting messed with. Then they know, but until then it isn't their problem just like any other US citizen, left or right, that sits back watching the news and not caring to get involved because it isn't their problem
Pretty obvious from your comments that you have never been on the other side. How would like to put on a bullet proof vest every morning for work, and go out on the streets and see nothing but the worst of the worst for 8 to 10 hours? Are there bad apples? Yes, the police forces of the World are made up of the same sorts of people that make up any population. Some good, some OK and some not so good. Bay and large the police forces go to great lengths to make sure that the people who out there on the streets every day are the best and have the best support they can. Personally I have had a concealed carry permit. I took great responsibility with that PRIVILEGE. I am a firm believer that if you, the average citizen are doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear from the police. If you are doing something wrong, then you loose the right to respect .
I do agree with that too but I know too many cops that DO misuse and abuse their authority. I know grade school kids that were shoved against the wall for asking what are you doing to my brother or the bystanding kid was having a serious asthma attack and told too bad they have to stay still. My 70 some yr old neighbor was thrown against a fence for walking down the park to see his son being arrested. I can understand police protecting themselves but out right bullying I can't see.
The policeman that killed the Steelers cousin Johnny Gamage got away with murder twice and continued being a cop.
Hello 450:Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
What comments are you talking about?? My desire for respect from the cops?? In fact, you seem to be saying that I shouldn't expect anything from the cops because they have tough jobs.
But, on to my original post. What if you're NOT doing something wrong? What if you HAVE one of those not so good cops in your face? Who should yield?
I suspect, from YOUR comments, that you think every time a cop finds himself in a confrontation with a citizen, the citizen has done something wrong. I don't make that assumption at all. In fact, my post is based on innocent circumstances... Of course, if you don't think the cops EVER face innocent civilians, then we can't carry on this conversation much longer.
excon
I think he is saying the cops do not know what to expect and can not trust anybody any more so they have to come off strong but
I agree with you why harass a citizen that isn't doing anything wrong in the first place.
According to the law of statistics it will increase your odds of getting shoot... one day for eventually messing with the wrong one.
Hello again:
Let's clear this up. I'm not talking about cops harassing innocent people just for the hell of it. I'm also not talking about a foul mouthed crook.
I'm talking about those situations where the cop has probable cause to interject himself into a situation, however WHO is guilty of WHAT, or whether there is even something to BE guilty of has NOT been determined.
excon
I am just saying I have seen them harass innocent, suspicious, guilty -(but undetermined by law yet) and everything in between and I do agree with you.
I believe that mutual respect is due the both of them. Why is there even a 'confrontation'? As a citizen, I expect my fellow citizens to obey the law, just like I have to. And I expect the cops, who work for me, to enforce those laws. Professionally, of course, but also to use force when necessary and justified. Let's face it, if someone tries to break into my house (or, let's say my mother's house) and the police blow his head off it's not exactly going to break my heart. Not that I would expect the police to use that degree of force for simply a B & E. And if I did it myself I know I'd be in a world of deep doo-doo. That's the point of view of this "right-winger" and for that I offer no apologies. But I am open to hearing other points of view.
EXACTLY necessary AND justified.
I'm sure I'm in the minority but I have to agree with this!Quote:
I am a firm believer that if you, the average citizen are doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear from the police. If you are doing something wrong, then you loose the right to respect.
The main problem with police is that so many of them become cops for the wrong reasons. Insteat of wanting to help society, many are former school bullies who never grew up and just want a job where they can keep pushing people around and abusing authority. Don't mouth off even if harassed, best thing to do is not to say anything until you have a lawyer.
Hello s:Quote:
Originally Posted by s_cianci
I don't know why we have trouble dancing around this stuff. You ask why IS there a confrontation in the first place, as though, (a) you think they only happen in my imagination, or (b) you think some BAD guy precipitated it.
But, I suggest these confrontations happen every day - even to you, s_cianci. If, however, you've never had a cop with an attitude stop you for speeding, or you've never been purposefully intimidated by a cop, then God bless you. But, I think the rest of us have.
excon
Well ex, I really can't say that I've been purposely intimidated by a cop, save maybe for one particular instance, under fairly benign circumstances. But I knew better than to get confrontational with him and have it turn into something worse. And I've been stopped for speeding lots of times (and I truly was speeding, every last time) but I don't know what you would call "attitude." After all, I was breaking the law and the cop was doing his job. Now sure, maybe they do get a little carried away sometimes and make more of an issue of it than it deserves. But hell, anyone can do that, a checkout clerk in a grocery store for that matter. Now that's not to excuse police misconduct when it does occur. But it's also not fair to impose a double standard on the police and not allow them to get away with what the grocery store checker having a bad day gets away with. After all, when a checkout clerk gives you $hit, what do you do? Do you get all confrontational? Do you attack him/her? Pull a weapon? Do you make a scene? Do you go to the manager and demand his/her job? And even if you do, does it ever actually result in his/her firing? Most likely, you say something like 'stick it' and walk (or storm) away. So why do we respond differently when it's the police? Perhaps because we resent their authority?Quote:
If, however, you've never had a cop with an attitude stop you for speeding, or you've never been purposefully intimidated by a cop, then God bless you. But, I think the rest of us have.
BINGOQuote:
Originally Posted by earl237
And that is the whole problem IF they have an attitude it doesn't matter who you are or what you did or didn't do.
A rotten apple spoils the whole basket.
Cops. When I was young and pretty they were so darned nice, no matter what offense I'd committed. Now that I look older, yeah, they can be real jerks! It takes a lot of maturity to behave like a model citizen all the time.It must be easier when your perp is pretty?
Ever deal with a cop as nice and patient as this guy?
Poor Fred (By the way, he was on a Harley... )
A cop stopped a Harley for traveling faster than the posted speed limit. He asked the biker his name.Fred Dingaling
'Fred,' he replies.
'Fred what?' the officer asks.
'Just Fred,' the man responds.
The officer is in a good mood and thinks he might just give the biker a break and write him out a warning instead of a ticket. The officer then pressed him for his last name.
The man tells him that he used to have a last name but lost it. The officer thinks that he has a nut case on his hands but plays along with it. 'Tell me, Fred, how did you lose your last name?'
The biker replied, 'It's a long story, so stay with me.' I was born Fred Dingaling. I know, a funny last name. The kids used to tease me all the time, so I stayed to myself, studied hard and got good grades. When I got older, I realized that I wanted to be a doctor. I went through college,medical school, internship, residency, and finally got my degree, so I was Fred Dingaling, MD. After a while I got bored being a doctor, so I decided to go back to school.. Dentistry was my dream! Got all the way through school, got my degree, so then I was Fred Dingaling, MD, DDS. Got bored doing dentistry, so I started fooling around with my assistant and she gave me VD, so now I was Fred Dingaling, MD, DDS, with VD. Well, the ADA found out about the VD, so they took away my DDS. Then I was Fred Dingaling, MD, with VD. Then the AMA found out about the ADA taking away my DDS because of the VD, so they took away my MD leaving me as Fred Dingaling with VD. Then the VD took away my Dingaling, so now I am Just Fred.'
The officer walked away in tears, laughing.
Oh, my Dad is going to love that one! Thanks Stringer.
You're welcome. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by simoneaugie
Excon ;if you are talking about the incident involving Professor Henry Louis Gates ,then I think Sgt. James Crowley did show the proper respect ,and Gates intentionally created an incident . Crowley showed restraint Gates did not .
Even though charges were dropped ;I think Crowley did the right thing in arresting Gates. Yes ,there was no crime by Gates breaking into his house ,and the whole thing would've been over had Gates simply provided his ID as requested .It was reasonable for Crowley to request an ID given the fact that he was responding to a reported break in ,and that the house had been broken into before .How would he know otherwise that Gates in fact lived there ? It was unreasonable for Gates to carry on like a lunatic and scream insults at Crowley for making his request. Gates wasn't only refusing to provide ID ,but he was being insulting to Crowley in his refusal. His rants attracted such a crowd that Crowley was finally forced to put him in handcuffs for disorderly conduct. Police have a mandate to maintain public order.
Let's say it was not Gates, but in fact an intruder. The intruder then pretends he is Gates and tells Crowley , “It's o.k. officers, this is my home, I just got locked out.” Then Crowley replies “Oh, sorry,and leaves, instead of asking for ID. It could be argued then that indeed Crowley acted "stupidly ".
Instead of claiming he was 'profiled' ,Gates would instead be complaining that that they didn't ask for I.D. when his house was being robbed.
Hello tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Couple things. It's not illegal to YELL at a cop. Gates did NOT break the law. A citizen yelling at a cop does NOT interfere with public order.
It is very rude of citizens to do that, to be sure. But it is not a crime. The idea that people should not get angry, should not pull rank, should be rude to others is an issue for sociologists and Miss Manners, not the cops. Humans often behave badly, but that doesn't make it illegal. For people with such tremendous power as police officers to be coddled into thinking that these are behaviors that allow them to arrest people (or worse) seems to be to far more dangerous than allowing a foolish person or two to set a bad example in the public square.
But, I'm not surprised at your response...
excon
Its not illegal technically by the book but in reality they call it disorderly conduct, resisting an officer or whatever they can put it under so even being legal they still use their loopholes to put you in the wrong.
Hello again, N0:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
True... But, then they subject themselves to a false arrest lawsuit which certainly MAY happen here. Those "loopholes" are going to come back to bite the city.
excon
I hope they do.
It is about time that something gives to make cops think about their ethical behavior.
They need to make an example of some of them.
It makes me sick what I see a lot of cops (mainly the newer ones of the past few years) get away with.
I know a lot of good cops on my townships department but some of the newer ones walk around like they can do no wrong.
If you want to call it a "loophole", that is. Disorderly conduct IS against the law ; it is a crime. The real question boils down to what exactly constitutes "disorderly conduct?" Like with all other aspects of the law, there's room (and the need for) interpretation. If a police officer, in his discretion, believes that one is guilty of disorderly conduct, then it's his responsibility to charge that person accordingly. Then, as with any other criminal charge, the suspect appears in court and receives a trial (unless (s)he pleads guilty at the onset) and is either convicted or acquitted. It's also important to understand that the job of the police is enforcement, not justice. The police are not lawyers and they're not judges. Determining guilt or innocence is not their job. Sure, a suspect is always innocent until proven guilty but the police have the responsibility to protect the community, which means arresting suspects accused or suspected of criminal activity, informing them of the charges against them, informing them of their rights and following all booking procedures (fingerprinting, etc.) Then their job is finished, except for maybe testifying in court when the case goes to trial, if they in fact witnessed the acts constituting the alleged crime(s) in question. Now also, let's apply a little common sense here ; while a suspect may be entitled to due process yada, yada, yada, when one witnesses a citizen committing a crime or something which could constitute a crime (e.g. "disorderly conduct"). Whether such witness be a cop or ordinary citizen, it's generally pretty obvious that the person committing said act(s) is guilty, even in the absence of a trial by jury, etc. For example, if I witness someone breaking into a house, then obviously that person is guilty, save for the uncommon possibility that the person lives there and inadvertently locked himself out. But, as already said, a simple ID will clear that up. Now I realize that part of the legal process would entail my testifying, under oath, that yes, I witnessed this person attempting to break into the house in question and that my testimony is what helps establish the guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt". But we can't be totally stupid and naïve about things ; when someone's doing something wrong, then they're guilty, plain and simple. In my opinion, that's the whole problem with the justice system in this country ; common sense has gone completely down the toilet.
ExactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by s_cianci
Hello again, s:Quote:
Originally Posted by s_cianci
What you say is true.
The crimes of disorderly person in Massachusetts is governed by G.L. c. 272 §53. In order for the prosecution to convict someone of violating this statute it must prove that the behavior of the accused was offensive and disorderly to a reasonable person. Offensive acts are those that cause discontent, umbrage or anger. Massachusetts appellate courts have held that acts or language that implicate fighting or threatening, or behavior that is riotous or violent, or behavior that creates a hazardous or offensive condition for no legitimate purpose can satisfy the elements of the disorderly person statute.
Using vulgar or profane words alone or offensive speech does not amount to disorderly conduct. Nor does the use of obscenities in public places suffice for a conviction under this statute.
As I suggested above, I don't think the level of conduct reached the legal threshold.
excon
The problem is many courts do not uphold any thresholds. Many Judges go by 'bad hair day' or 'I feel' or 'MY mood today'
Hello again, N0:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I have a fondness for the law. It IS the cornerstone of our society. While I don't disagree with you about SOME judges, I think MOST of them have the same dedication to the law as I do, even if their interpretation is different...
I wouldn't hold the law in such high regard if I thought, that it was based on a "bad hair day", or "moods". That isn't to say that I haven't run into judges like you describe. I have, and even worse.
excon
I agree I do too as it was meant to be, but I see it becoming more the other way.
What I am saying is it is just that too many are Judges and police are getting away with stuff because they can.
Many people feel they have no power to do anything about the bad Judges and laws because the bad ones stick together and place you in a no win situation.
You say a cuss word or two to a cop.
They write you up for it with anything they can think of.
They take it to court
The Judge sticks it to you
Then your lawyer says ''Well you can fight this but guess who any Judge is going to side with... you or the cop?"
And this is where the whole idea of 'interpretation' comes into play concerning matters of criminal law. That's where it's up to the judge or, if applicable, the jury to sort through all the evidence (which in the case of a disorderly conduct charge would be strictly word-of-mouth eyewitness testimony) and decide whether a crime was in fact committed.Quote:
As I suggested above, I don't think the level of conduct reached the legal threshold.
This is very true also. Not all judges interpret the law objectively. Look at all the grilling Sonya Sotomayor is undergoing, not unlike what any other Supreme Court nominee is subjected to. And I know I'm opening a whole new can of worms here but, in my opinion, Judge Sotomayor has not always interpreted the law properly in the course of her legal practice. That's just one example.Quote:
The problem is many courts do not uphold any thresholds. Many Judges go by 'bad hair day' or 'I feel' or 'MY mood today'
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
No one is entitled. Mature individuals treat everyone with respect and don't necessarily feel entitled or demand it.
Common sense tells me that in a court of law, the cop. They have the police report, what does the citizen have ? [ video - is it admissible? ] The police may have a dash cam - which is neutral but not beyond manipulation.
I'm not sure if cops are required to take psychology, but I've gotten away with speeding by just being polite, respectful, and even submissive. In a high adrenaline situation a human / cop is more likely to either fight or flight [run]. A cop represents authority and though it may only be words, if they are offensive, then a cop is more likely to respond in the fight mode. A citizen cannot respond in a "fight" mode with a cop in most situations.
I have also been wrongly arrested and been put in a holding tank because of a county courthouse clerical error. The cops were snide, but what could I do, they were just doing their job. I got my day in court.
I am of the right wing persuasion as you say, I realize that most police work is a high stress job that does not pay very well for the responsibilities involved. I also realize that the more local the cop the less likely they have had much comprehensive training. Deal with them accordingly.
G&P
What is being done here is projection of bad experiences and possible real injustices with police onto the Gates case. But the truth is that this case in no way resembles incidences of police abuse ;and yes I know it happens .
It is my view that Gates saw this incident develop into a moment he could exploit to illustrate his thesis and life's work that whites suck . It was his actions that dictated the course of events . Had he shown even the most basic decency and respect towards the police ;who after all were there to protect him and his property , the incident would not have escalated . It is my opinion from reading the police report that he intended to push the envelope until he was arrested . In fact ;I'm surprised he did not have a video camera rolling. It is no coincidence in my view that this occurred as he was preparing a PBS documentary on racial profiling .
But if there was any profiling being done here it was Gates profiling Sgt Crowley . You know and I know that had this been a Black Officer responding that Gates would've been cooperative and in the end would've thanked him for his concern and his service to the community .
Sgt Crowley is also a victim of defamation by the President.
In the case of Sgt Crowley he was well versed on the rules of racial profiling as he has voluntarily taught the course on avoiding racial profiling for the dept. at the Lowell Police Academy for the last 5 years. Former police commissioner Ronny Watson (who is black ) selected Crowley to teach the course.Quote:
I realize that most police work is a high stress job that does not pay very well for the responsibilities involved. I also realize that the more local the cop the less likely they have had much comprehensive training. Deal with them accordingly.
What is the reason for the confrontation?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
What actions were tasken by the cop?
What actions were taken by the citizen?
What are the actions that the cop is SUPPOSED to take under his rules and regulations? Did he follow his rules and regulations?
A question like yours, taken out of context (as usual) doesn't provide enough information to come to a conclusion.
Personally, I'm a fan of Chris Rock's rules for not getting your butt kicked by the cops.
http://www.chrisrock.com/video/535
Since I assume you are referring to the Gates incident, I will point out that Gates violated Chris Rock's rules by becoming beligerent with the cop. From what I have read and heard, the cop was answering a legitimate call of a possible B & E. His job was to investigate and make sure that the people in the house BELONGED in the house and that they weren't under duress from someone else. He did his job by asking Gates to step outside the house and provide ID. Providing ID would establish the person's identity, and stepping outside the house would insure that he was not under duress from a third party that wasn't seen by the cops. Gates refused to comply with what were rather simple requests. Why he felt it necessary to give the cop some $h!t, I have no idea... it doesn't strike me as the appropriate actions of a scholar and educator. And even after the cop had established that Gates was the real owner and was getting ready to leave, Gates continued to give the cop $h!t. Had he followed the simple rules of Chris Rock, which can be summed up as "act respectfully of yourself and others", he could have avoided the whole mess.
I have been confronted by cops in the past. I was actually confronted by a couple of cops outside my home a few months back. I was parked outside the house and was inside the car waiting for my kids. (I'm currently separated, and don't live in my home, even though it is legally my home.) A neighbor didn't recognize me or my car and called the cops to check me out, which they did. They asked me to step out of the car and show them my ID. I complied. They asked me what I was waiting for, and I told them I was waiting for my kids. They thanked me for my patience and I thanked them for doing their jobs. We were respectful to each other. Consequently I was NOT arrested on disturbance charges. The whole incident lasted less than 5 minutes.
The point is that I was in almost the same situation as Gates, rather recently. But my actions and responses were VERY different from his. The result was also very different.
So... you may be right, excon, in saying that the cop should be respectful of the citizen, and the citizen owes nothing to the cops. Let's even take it as gospel that you are right. (We can debate it another time.)
So what? It costs NOTHING to be respectful of the cop, and it would have defused the entire situation in short order. What possible reason is there NOT to be respectful of the cop? Just because you can? That's just foolish. And it gets you arrested for your own stupidity.
You can be "right" or you can be "good". But sometimes you can't be both, and you need to choose which you want to be. Being "right" may make you feel morally superior, but it just doesn't get you very far in cases like these. Being "good" may take a certain minimal amount of sacrifice of your moral position (your "right" to be a jerk) in a case like this one, but you can get much farther. The choice is yours. I made mine.
Elliot
Hello again, El:Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
It's not surprising to ME, that you would equate driving while Jewish, to driving while black.
This isn't the time to give you some sensitivity training or a history lesson. They're BOTH lost on the right wing, as is OBVIOUS by your post.
excon
Oh I didn't really know what the story was about.
Here is exactly why a cop would do that.
Near where I live 3 police were called to home over domestic dispute. Adult son was freaking out at mom for allowing dogs to mess all over the carpet. Mom called police. 911 did not inform police that he had guns. He was also wearing a bullet proof vest expecting the police, Shot all three to death upon arriving at house.
FOXNews.com - Shooter Wearing Bulletproof Vest Guns Down 3 Pittsburgh Officers, Upset Over Losing Job - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
So you are saying that if Gates had acted more like I had, he STILL would have been arrested, and only because he's black?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Bull$h!t.
And gee, Jews have never been the subject of descrimination by cops in this country...
And if that's your feeling, then why bring up the issue of "respect" at all in your post. According to what you just said, this had nothing to do with respect. It was a purely race-related incident, and respect had nothing to do with the issue.
You don't even know your own opinion anymore... what this a respect issue or a race issue? You just react with liberal knee-jerk reactions.
I HAVE studied history. That's how I learned to AVOID making incidents with the cops WORSE than they have to be and how to AVOID giving them excuses to arrest me. You should try it sometime.
Elliot
I'm of the right-wing persuasion and I don't believe we "should kiss the cops rear end no matter what." That's another one of those myths you like to repeat. I've dealt with cops "acting stuipdly," I've dealt with white cops "acting stupidly" toward my white daughter who was being harassed by a black man. I'd like to have punched them both in the nose but then I would have ended up in jail.
That's the 'problem' with dealing with the police, sometimes you just have to do what they say. I believe Gates wasn't just yelling at Crowley, he was failing to obey a lawful order which can probably land you in cuffs and then jail in all 50 states. Gates knows this and by his reaction I'm sure he'll milk this for all its worth. And if the president of the United States begins a sentence with "I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts" he should end it with something like "so I can't comment on the incident at this time."
By the way, here is the police report pdf.
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