Ask Me Help Desk

Ask Me Help Desk (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum.php)
-   Current Events (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=486)
-   -   Carbon Ain't Really Pollution (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=375248)

  • Jul 13, 2009, 05:29 PM
    paraclete
    Carbon Ain't Really Pollution
    Carbon Ain't Really Pollution. It's an interesting slogan and there are a number of adherents to this point of view from those who think it has something to do with the sun spot cycle or Earth's orbit or those who just aren't convinced it is possible for us to have such a large impact from such a small (relatively) growth in Carbon Dioxide.

    So the question is; is our science diffinative enough to be able to have the answers? There are many things scientists have been certain about previously than are now disgarded theories. A couple of years ago the large hurricanes that devistated the US were hailed as a sample of what to expect and yet those events haven't repeated any more often than they have been observed in the past. In the scientific world if you cannot repeat the expirement then your theory fails. Do you think that this is all a little paraniod force fed by political interests? Do you think that we have gone too far and are destroying the planet at an increasing rate? As I sit here in the low temperatures of winter I wonder where is that global warming that promised I would have milder winters? I begin to think not in my lifetime

    What I think is that we are finding it all too hard to come to grips with the possibility of climate change. If it isn't going to happen tomorrow literally we soon loose interest because the struggles of daily living are what we must focus on. Let's not be influenced by some catchy statistics that may or may not show a link between atmospheric carbon and mean average temperature when there are more important reasons we might want to get away from the carbon cycle as a source of energy.
  • Jul 13, 2009, 07:30 PM
    speechlesstx
    Clete, wouldn't Carbon Ain't Really Pollution be CARP, not crap? That's not to say that all this climate change fear mongering isn't crap because it is. It's not about losing interest because of the daily struggles for me. I think the consensus - when they aren't busy being outright dishonest - is being very narrow minded in proclaiming a disaster over only 150 years of quite variable recorded data and placing such faith in computer models. Garbage in, garbage out as they say...

    Steve

    P.S. By the way, we've had many discussions before on Answerway and elsewhere, nice to see you on AMHD
  • Jul 13, 2009, 08:55 PM
    paraclete
    Whether it is all carp or all crap is what I'm really trying to answer. Try Carbon Really Ain't Pollution if it makes you feel better. Down my way we know carp as an introduced species that muddies the waters and destroys the habitat.

    I think this is what our present concerns and actions about climate change may actually be doing. Last week (Obama, L'Aquila) it became fairly obvious we are back in the rhetoric stage with a target for 2050 and little being done in the short term. I think but you may have missed it, Obama actually said, not on my watch. Now I understand that to do something meaningful in the short term is very painful for a politician because you are condemned if you do and you are condemned if you don't.

    The longer this debate goes on the less certain the evidence actually becomes. I'm not denying there is evidence that climate is changing (melting glaciers) but is carbon actually the cause or a symptom of the change. We are very good at identifying and treating the symptoms and not the disease, why should this be any different. The reality is we have about 100 years of evidence that something is happening and everything else is extrapolation of statistics, in other words, unproven theory. I have seen statistics indicating that a part of Antartica is warming and the part right next to it is cooling, very inconsistent, and no responsible scientist would base projections on such data but they do. We have destroyed massive amounts of forest and continue to do so, perhaps this is the problem, but no one is doing anything about it, they think coal is the problem. The forest has a purpose; to absorb and sequestrate the carbon. If I'm right the whole problem could be fixed by replanting the forest, destroying as they go the soya industry, the sugar industry, the cattle industry, the softwoods and paper industries and all these other monocultures that have replaced the forests and make lots of lovely money for those nice investors you know where.
  • Jul 13, 2009, 09:13 PM
    andrewc24301
    "Carbon Really Ain't Pollution"

    Or otherwise known as "CRAP"

    Just thought I'd mention, all you need to do is reverse "really" and "ain't" to make it work.
  • Jul 13, 2009, 09:36 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    The longer this debate goes on the less certain the evidence actually becomes. I'm not denying there is evidence that climate is changing (melting glaciers) but is carbon actually the cause or a symptom of the change.

    Hello clete:

    Carbon, CO2... These are nice words for the trash we're throwing into the air. Why don't you talk about THAT? Is throwing garbage into the air a cool thing to do? Even if it doesn't cause climate change, it sure does make the air dirty, and it CAN'T be doing us any good. No? Why don't we STOP doing that, and I'll bet the carbon, or the CO2, AND the brown sky will disappear? Then everybody will be happy.

    excon
  • Jul 13, 2009, 10:02 PM
    simoneaugie

    One volcanic eruption can produce as much crap in the air as many, many years of humans burning carbon type fuels. Right? Sun spot cycles are documented by science as affecting the heating and cooling trends of the Earth. Right? So how did the last ice age come about? We weren't even here.

    What is wrong with us? Like when you go to the grocery store and let them bag your stuff with plastic, plastic is made from fossils. Isn't it way easier to regrow trees than fossils? When you clean up your house by throwing things into the trash, think about it, or not...

    Green thinking gives us something to do with our idle minds. We aren't too busy with our lives to take care of our environment. We are too dependent on the excitement provided by those who catastrophize environmental concerns; too busy getting excited and up in arms to do much at all.

    Humans are lazy more so these days, as we emjoy our new "wealth." We really don't care until we can't see the horizon for the brown haze. Then we sit back, watch the excitement of the news, and wait for someone else to make it better. I don't think that pollution will be solved by humans except by our extinction.

    That is really sad. What if I'm right! Are you entertained now?
  • Jul 14, 2009, 05:17 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    But is carbon actually the cause or a symptom of the change.
    My favorite slogan for this topic is "Climate Change Happens" . There is an extensive recorded history of radical climate change in global history that happened long before the internal combustion engine.

    I do not believe humans have the capacity short of global thermal nuclear war to radically change the environment .

    Now ,I also agree with Excon that all practical measures should be taken to reduce levels of harmful emissions,and indeed great strides have been made in that regard . The technology still needs further improvement and a market for exporting the technology has to be created in the emerging industrial nations so their emissions can be controlled.

    I also think we should be moving away from carbon based energy sources. But that doesn't happen overnight and there is a need to bridge the time between now and when it becomes viable. The climate change chicken littles do not want to address that reality.

    As an example ;if I were in a position of leadership I would plan an initial immediate construction of 100 breeder reactors in the United States. I would use the blue prints of the French reactors .As you know ;breeder reactors produce more fuel than they consume;and the nuclear waste is almost non-existant as everything eventually gets reused . What is left is a small amt . Of waste with a half life of thirty to forty years .By comparison ;the existing American reactor is a dinosaur which produces waste with a half life of 25,000 years.

    This would give America that bridge to generating clean reliable electricity . But what to do about the automobile ? My solution to bridge that gap to viable electric cars ;fuel cells ,or the emergence of some flux capacitor for DeLoreans in the future is the creation of flex fuel autos than can run on a variety of alternatives and creating the infrastructure to run natural gas automobiles . Natural gas vehicle (NGV's ) runs cleaner than petroleum and the United States has an abundance of supply. Currently what we do with natural gas is stupid. We use it to generate electricity because of our paranoia about nukes.
    These I think would help us bridge that gap while at the same time addressing people environmental concerns.

    Now if you ask me why the hysteria ? I think it is clearly being manufactured by people like the Goracle (Al Gore) who has invested heavily in the "comodity " of carbon trading and has a financial stake in getting his agenda implemented. They know when all the ducks are in a row and all the major nations are on board that they will have created ,and will be in on the ground floor of the ultimate speculative market . Imagine ;there is no hard product or mineral or even vegetable to base this market on . It will totally be controlled by how many credits their cronies inside the governments allow . This will be the dervitive market on steroids . But they will control the inflating and deflating of the bubble by having their buddies control the supply of credits. It will be an international cartel that will make OPEC look like small potatoes.

    I also agree with you that reforestation should be a goal . Efficiencies in farming techniques ;the use of GM seed for better crops and everyone needs to get over their paranoia about food irradiation would mean that more food could be grown more efficiently on less land. In the US we are already reclaiming much of the former agriculture lands .We are a net carbon sink and we need to remain so.
  • Jul 14, 2009, 03:01 PM
    paraclete
    excon
    Carbon dioxide doesn't make the air dirty, if it did there would be brown fog in a forest but I agree that particulate pollution, the stuff the brown haze is made of, needs to be dealt with. I am certainly with you on cleaning up and preventing that type of pollution as I am in stopping dumping of industrial waste in the rivers. However this thing with CO2 seems to have a cult mentality about it. No one is worrying about much more polluting gasses like methane because they represent a much smaller part of the emissions.

    No one denies that we have to find better solutions to power transport and to generate power because what we have now isn't sustainable. We will see use of solar and wind but they aren't a 100% solution so back to the drawing board
  • Jul 14, 2009, 03:13 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Carbon dioxide doesn't make the air dirty, if it did there would be brown fog in a forest

    Hello again, clete:

    It does warm up the atmosphere, though. The debate is whether man is responsible for the rise in CO2. I'm suggest that it doesn't really matter what causes the rise. Because, if cleaning up our emissions, (which is something we SHOULD do in any case), happens to also reduce CO2, then we're ahead of the game.

    excon
  • Jul 14, 2009, 03:15 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by simoneaugie View Post



    Humans are lazy more so these days, as we emjoy our new "wealth." We really don't care until we can't see the horizon for the brown haze. Then we sit back, watch the excitement of the news, and wait for someone else to make it better. I don't think that pollution will be solved by humans except by our extinction.

    That is really sad. What if I'm right! Are you entertained now?

    Simon, extinction isn't the answer either because we will take a lot of species with us, the problem is consumerism as you have identified and we know that is fueled by capitalism the underlying assumptions of our western society.

    Pollution can be solved by human action, there are examples where action has brought change, the smogs of London have gone but those of Beijing remain. The air in China would clear overnight if they stopped burning garbage in the streets. What it takes is political will to address the problem. It requires behavioural modification, and that starts with telling industry, all industry, that pollution is not on and enforcing it with taxes and shut down orders. If we were to set a price (tax) of say $100 a tonne on carbon emissions the problem would vanish quickly, we would suddenly discover how innovative we can be, but what good is it for the industrialised countries to do this if China and India, etc are allowed business as usual, we will soon be back where we started as the polluting industries migrate
  • Jul 14, 2009, 04:26 PM
    KISS

    CO, CO2, CH3; Carbon Monoxide, Carbon Dioxide and Methane.

    Cows are major contributors of methane. Feed them better and they won't pass gas as much. More trees, and less CO2 since trees use CO2. Less people also mean less CO2. Burn less Fossil fuels and less CO.
  • Jul 15, 2009, 03:25 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    If we were to set a price (tax) of say $100 a tonne on carbon emissions the problem would vanish quickly, we would suddenly discover how innovative we can be,
    But that isn't how the schemers envison it at all. They would trade the right to pollute like it was a barrel of oil with them making a killing as both trader, broker ,and the regulator of the market.
  • Jul 15, 2009, 05:39 AM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    But that isn't how the schemers envison it at all. They would trade the right to pollute like it was a barrel of oil with them making a killing as both trader, broker ,and the regulator of the market.

    There is no incentive at $100 a tonne, it costs too much to keep on polluting and the higher the price gets the greater the incentive to do something else. Yes, there may be an EXXON in there somewhere, but we have been there and we should have enough sense to keep the hedge funds out of the market and keep the real interests in the market. It's time to grow up, take the Wall Street wise guys by the balls and say beat it chum
  • Jul 15, 2009, 05:49 AM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    but what good is it for the industrialised countries to do this if China and India, etc are allowed business as usual, we will soon be back where we started as the polluting industries migrate
    At the Senate Hearings on the cap and tax legislation an EPA chart confirmed what you are saying ;that no effort by us would make any difference if the emerging industrial nations aren't on board. EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson made the case ;but unbelievably ,the idiot that the President appointed as Energy Sec .Steven Chu simply said he did not believe the chart without giving any other justification for his opinion.


    Both India and China refused to budge when the issue was brought up at the G-8 meetings. And why should they ? They see this as the West ;which has already gotten theirs trying to deny them the right to grow their economies.

    The Goracle spilled the beans about another aspect of the secret agenda of the climate change chicken littles when he addressed this . He said that the US passing cap and tax laws would be a boost to "global governance" .
  • Jul 15, 2009, 05:52 AM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    Yes, there may be an EXXON in there somewhere
    I know for a fact there is . GE ,T. Boone Pickens,Goldman Sachs are all getting into the act. Heck ,the whole cap and trade scheme was an invention of Enron.
  • Jul 15, 2009, 06:38 AM
    ETWolverine

    Paraclete,

    Can you please explain to me how something that you NEED in order to breath can be a pollutant?

    Not only do we exhale CO2, but CO2 levels in our blood regulate our rate of resperation. We need CO2 to prevent us from either breathing too much or too little.

    Then there's the fact that plants, which exhale the oxygen we need to breath and are the largest source of oxygen on Earth, need CO2 to survive. If plants need CO2 in order to produce oxygen, how can it be a pollutant?

    Then there's the fact that farmers often add CO2 to the soil in order to increase crop yields. CO2 is a fertalizer, and is used to grow food staples. In fact, ORGANIC farmers use more CO2 in their growing process than "traditional" industrial farmers do. Food crops, being mostly plant-life, need CO2 in order to grow. How can something necessary to food production and used in ORGANIC food production be a pollutant?

    Answer: It can't.

    For now I'm leaving aside the fact that the science of chemistry doesn't support the theory that CO2 depletes the Ozone Layer. I'm just looking at the logic, not the science. I can discuss the science with you somne other time.

    But I'd like to hear your comments on the question of how something necessary to human, animal and plant survival on Earth can be a pollutant. Can you defend this position? Does it make sense to you?

    Elliot
  • Jul 15, 2009, 07:04 AM
    speechlesstx
    What's ironic here is the Obama administration is doing exactly as the left accused Bush of doing in silencing dissent and ignoring science. Sen. John Thune is one of those who have taken the administration to task over this.

    Quote:

    June 30th, 2009 - Washington, D.C. - Senator John Thune today sent a letter to Bill Roderick, Acting Inspector General at the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), asking him to investigate the apparent suppression of scientific views dissenting from the EPA's April 17, 2009 Endangerment Finding for carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses, including methane. Recently discovered emails indicate Dr. Al McGartland, Director of the National Center for Environmental Economics (NCEE), kept Dr. Alan Carlin, an economist at NCEE, from presenting his view that the EPA was incorrect in determining that carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses should be regulated under the Clean Air Act. The EPA's Endangerment Finding is the regulatory measure which has generated concerns about not only regulating greenhouse gasses but also a potential tax on livestock emissions.

    "The emails made public by the House Energy and Commerce Committee show a high ranking EPA official apparently suppressing scientific views that run counter to the Obama Administration's determination to regulate carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses," said Thune. "As Congress considers costly climate change legislation that has the potential to reshape our entire economy, a robust debate on the issue is necessary. I am concerned about the credibility of the Obama Administration's arguments in favor of increased environmental activism and government regulation now that it is clear that legitimate differences of opinion are not tolerated within the EPA."
    One of the emails from Carlin's boss reads, "The time for such discussion of fundamental issues as passed for this round. The administrator and administration has decided to move forward on endangerment, and your comments do not help the legal or policy case for this decision. I can only see one impact of your comments given where we are in the process, and that would be a very negative impact on our office."

    That is why the rush to pass cap and tax, the science clearly shows a cooling trend but the agenda and image trump everything else.
  • Jul 15, 2009, 07:36 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    How can something necessary to food production and used in ORGANIC food production be a pollutant?

    Answer: It can't.

    Hello again, El:

    I don't know. Water seems to fit your description above too. It's pretty benign, until you're in it and can't make it to shore... At that point, I wouldn't call it a pollutant. I'd call it a killer.

    Too much CO2 in our atmosphere will kill us too, and I don't care what you fruitcakes want to call it.

    excon
  • Jul 15, 2009, 10:00 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    I dunno. Water seems to fit your description above too. It's pretty benign, until you're in it and can't make it to shore... At that point, I wouldn't call it a pollutant. I'd call it a killer.

    Too much CO2 in our atmosphere will kill us too, and I don't care what you fruitcakes want to call it.

    excon

    Ahhhh, now we are changing definitions. There is no logical way to defend the position that CO2 is a pollutant. So we change the premise and redefine CO2.

    CO2 is not a pollutant, but an overdose of it will kill you.

    I agree with that statement. But with that statement comes a whole bunch of questions.

    How much is too much? Is the amount that we currently have in the air too much? Is it too little? Is it just right? Do we have the ability to control the amount that is in our air? Is the amount produced by industry significant compared to the total amount in the air? Does the eco-system self-regulate the amount of CO2 in the air (the answer to that one is "yes"). What would be the net effect of regulation on CO2 levels in the air? Is the cost of doing so justified by the outcome?

    Simply saying that too much CO2 is bad for you is too simplistic, and doesn't result in a real answer to the questions at hand. Yes, too much is no good. True statement. But it doesn't actually talk to our state of affairs. The statements intimates that we are getting too much. But are we really getting too much? We don't know the answer to that.

    It's sort of like saying that a particular pitcher would be awful if he walked all the batters he faced. IF he really were walking all the hitters, the statement would be true. But is that pitcher actually walking all the hitters, or is that just supposition.

    Elliot
  • Jul 15, 2009, 10:02 AM
    tomder55

    how much is too much ? During the Cretaceous period carbon dioxide ranged as high as 2,000 parts per million( ppm) ;more than five times today's values . Life on the earth ;both plant and animal thrived. That's just an inconvenient scientific fact.
  • Jul 15, 2009, 10:24 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    how much is too much ? during the Cretaceous period carbon dioxide ranged as high as 2,000 parts per million( ppm) ;more than five times today's values . Life on the earth ;both plant and animal thrived. That's just an inconvenient scientific fact.

    Hello again, tom:

    Nope. I'm not like the IDers. Fact is fact. And, you caught me being inflammatory and inarticulate. For that, I apologize. I certainly shouldn't have used the word "kill us", because it probably won't - at least a few of us anyway. The ones who it will kill are the ones who can't relocate themselves. That's probably MOST of the world.

    There was no polar ice during the mild warm, subtropical Cretaceous. The land was covered with forests surrounded by water. The sea levels rose during the mid-Cretaceous, covering about one-third of the land area.

    Now, I don't know about you. But, that represents a drastic change in the way we live our lives. It's apparently OK with you that that happens to the world.

    And, you think I'm the one who is smoking wacky tabacky.

    excon
  • Jul 15, 2009, 10:37 AM
    tomder55
    I just don't know what is "normal" for the world .

    My own pet theory is that the earth is still recovering from that non-human- made disaster that plunged the world into an ice age .

    You are of course correct that we should make every effort to reduce HARMFUL human emissions .
    All this C02 bs is blowing smoke all right .

    Ken Lay is the father of carbon cap and trade and Kyoto . Enuff said... you can look it up. He and Enron made a killing with the 1990 Clean Air Act's sulphur dioxide cap-and-trade program and he was looking for the next pollutant to exploit .He chose CO2. The only problem was that C02 was not a pollutant so the EPA could not regulate it. But he got the Goracle on board ;who sees global environmental regulations as the most quick way to global governance... and the rest is history.
  • Jul 15, 2009, 11:29 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    You are of course correct that we should make every effort to reduce HARMFUL human emissions .... All this C02 bs is blowing smoke alright .

    Hello again, tom:

    We're not as far apart on this issue as it may appear. I'm talking MACRO. You're talking MICRO.

    You're probably not wrong about cap and trade. That's a politicians creation, so I doubt that it will fix the problem it's aimed at.

    But, once you clear away all the political chaff, you wind up with one fact. We ARE running out of fossil fuel. Even if we have a relatively long term supply of say coal, it doesn't change the fact that we ARE running out of it.

    Combine that fact with the fact that burning fossil fuel creates a dirty atmosphere. And then people will argue about what that's going to do... And, then they come up with all sorts if bizarre solutions to it, like cap and trade, and argue about what that's going to do.

    But, if we just skipped to the chase, it won't matter that burning fossil fuels might or might not have been the death of us. Who would care anyway? We HAVE to stop using it, because we're running out. It's certainly better to plan for running out, instead of just running out, which is what we've been doing. Doncha think?

    AND, who would care whether cap and trade is a pile of crap either, because that fix, if it IS a fix at all, is only short term one at best.

    Plus, who would care what the worlds "normal" temperature is anyway? We have a vested interest in keeping it the way it is NOW. That's OUR normal.

    The chase?? Renewable green energy sources. That doesn't look like a negative to me from an entrepreneurial point of view. I see all sorts of opportunities there to make jillions and establish the US as an industrial leader once again. Plus, it certainly might bring us out of our monetary problems...

    Did I mention the benefit of NOT sending tons of cash to the Arabs?? Oh.

    So, it's time for a left turn. I BIG left turn.

    Contrary to some, part of that BIG left turn includes nuclear. I'm no shill for the left.

    excon
  • Jul 15, 2009, 12:04 PM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, tom:

    We're not as far apart on this issue as it may appear. I'm talking MACRO. You're talking MICRO.

    You're probably not wrong about cap and trade. That's a politicians creation, so I doubt that it will fix the problem it's aimed at.

    But, once you clear away all the political chaff, you wind up with one fact. We ARE running out of fossil fuel. Even if we have a relatively long term supply of say coal, it doesn't change the fact that we ARE running out of it.

    Combine that fact with the fact that burning fossil fuel creates a dirty atmosphere. And then people will argue about what that's gonna do.... And, then they come up with all sorts if bizarre solutions to it, like cap and trade, and argue about what that's gonna do.

    But, if we just skipped to the chase, it won't matter that burning fossil fuels might or might not have been the death of us. Who would care anyway? We HAVE to stop using it, because we're running out. It's certainly better to plan for running out, instead of just running out, which is what we've been doing. Doncha think?

    AND, who would care whether cap and trade is a pile of crap either, because that fix, if it IS a fix at all, is only short term one at best.

    Plus, who would care what the worlds "normal" temperature is anyway? We have a vested interest in keeping it the way it is NOW. That's OUR normal.

    The chase??? Renewable green energy sources. That doesn't look like a negative to me from an entrepreneurial point of view. I see all sorts of opportunities there to make jillions and establish the US as an industrial leader once again. Plus, it certainly might bring us out of our monetary problems...

    Did I mention the benefit of NOT sending tons of cash to the Arabs???? Oh.

    So, it's time for a left turn. I BIG left turn.

    Contrary to some, part of that BIG left turn includes nuclear. I'm no shill for the left.

    excon

    Excon,

    This is the first post on this subject in ages that you have posted that makes SENSE.

    Congratulations.

    Yes, using fosil fuels is a temporary solution to our energy problem, be that a 10-year or a 100-year solution. We do indeed need to develop alternative energy sources. NOT because of anything having to do with global warming, but because from an economic point of view, it's a supply and demand issue... and the supply will EVENTUALLY run out. There's an additional reason... that of energy independence from our enemies. Alternative fuels should be developed.

    But let's leave the global warming BS out of it, shall we? There are plenty of good reasons to develop other fuel sources, but Global Warming isn't one of them

    That said, in the interim, until we have developed these alternative fuel sources, we still need to fuel our industry, our heating and our transportation. We do not yet have alternative fuel technologies that work.

    Wind farms are an unworkable idea. It takes more energy to transport wind-powered electricity to its end-users than is actually created.

    Alcohol fuels from food products is an economically unworkable concept. In the past two years, using corn or other bio-fuel crops for fuel instead of for food has driven the cost of food through the roof. Meat now costs more because the feed corn is being diverted for use as a fuel. Such fuels are cost-prohibitive.

    Natural gas is a good energy source, but it is no more renewable than fossil fuels. We can and should use natural gas as a fuel source, but it is no more reliable than oil in the long run. Also, it is difficult to store and transport because it is explosive in gas form and expensive to cool to liquid form. Problematic, but a good short-term solution.

    Nuclear energy is a good, safe, renewable source of energy. France fuels half the country (maybe more) via nuclear energy. Problem is that too many on the left are afraid of nuclear energy. Nuclear energy is POLITICALLY unfeasable. The politics CAN be overcome with enough time and money, but until then, it's an untennable fuel source for political reasons.

    In short, every alternative source of energy has its problems. Given enough time to develop these fuel sources, we could probably overcome every one of them. But those solutions are decades in the future. Also, even if we came up with a solution that everyone is happy with, it will take decades to completely move the entire nation to a new fuel source.

    And we need fuel NOW.

    So... here's what I propose:

    We should develop alternative fuels as quickly as we can. We should stop wasting time with what doesn't work, and instead work on developing the most promising alternative fuels. It will take years to develop them and the sooner we get started, the sooner we will have a solution.

    But in the meantime, in order to keep our economy running, and in order to keep homes warm in the winter and cool in the summer, and in order to keep cars on the road, we need to continue using oil fuels. At a minimum it will take a decade before we are ready to switch to something else. For that period, we need to continue with oil use.

    BUT... just because we need to use oil doesn't mean we need to hand our enemies the economic power to hurt us. We can create energy independence RIGHT NOW. We have oil sources within the USA that can be tapped within months, and will result in economic freedom from the likes of Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. For purely economic reasons, we should be digging for oil, at least for the next few years.

    Then, if the scientists are able to develop alternative fuel sources to the degree that they become feasible from an economic, political and infrastructure standpoint, we can move over to the alternative fuels.

    In other words, we shouldn't cripple ourselves today in the hopes that SOMEDAY there will be a good alternative fuel source. Develop that fuel source today, but at the same time create energy independence.

    And leave the global warming stuff out of it... it just confuses people for no good reason. We have enough reasons to develop alternative fuels without resulting to faulty science.

    Elliot
  • Jul 15, 2009, 01:45 PM
    speechlesstx
    More proof this is all politics and doesn't have a darn thing to do with cooling the planet... which has been cooling for roughly the last decade anyway.

    Quote:

    The masks slips for global-warming activists
    Posted at 2:17 pm on July 15, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
    Share on Facebook | printer-friendly

    The global-warming climate-change movement has insisted that their primary concern is to keep the planet from overheating due to greenhouse-gas emissions. If so, one would expect that they would stick to plans that cut those emissions and focused on nothing else. However, the latest proposal on international carbon caps shows that the movement is less concerned with carbon emissions and more concerned about kneecapping economic success:

    Researchers in the U.S. have proposed a new way of allocating responsibility for carbon emissions they say could solve the impasse between developed and developing countries.

    The method sets national targets for reducing carbon emissions based on the number of high-income earners in each country, following the theory that people who earn more generate more CO2.

    It’s fairer than some other ideas out there in the sense that we attribute responsibility for emission reductions based only on the number of high-emitting people in the country — if the country has large number of people who are high-emitters then it has more work to do,” said Shoibal Chakravarty, a research scholar at Princeton Environmental Institute. …

    “By and large for every 10 percent increase in income, the emissions from a certain person go up about six to 10 percent. This is true pretty much everywhere in the world. … What happens is that initially people spend their money mostly on direct use like transportation, air conditioning, heating and cooling and so on,” Chakravarty said. “But they also spend a lot of their money on buying goods, and buying stuff. And to make stuff you use energy and you produce emissions.”

    Let’s make this clear. First, Princeton has to resort to the hypothesis (not “theory”, which indicates a substantial level of proof in scientific jargon) that higher-income people generate more carbon emissions because they can’t measure it. When people use the phrases “By and large” and “pretty much everywhere,” they’re not speaking scientifically but giving opinions. In this case, they’re looking at data on emissions by country (an inexact science anyway) and comparing it to rankings from the World Bank, hardly a rigorous scientific process.

    Second, this makes little sense anyway. The act of earning a living doesn’t generate carbon emissions — consumption and production do. If you wanted to tax for carbon emissions, you would tax consumption or production directly, not income, even if you can’t scientifically relate carbon emissions to either. The relation between income and emissions is at best indirect. At least consumption relates fairly directly to production, and a tax on the former would definitely suppress the latter in any economic system.

    So why focus on income? The entire point of the global movement to arrest energy production is to punish the industrial nations for their wealth. This is just redistributionism writ large. They don’t want to limit carbon emissions per se; they just want the right people to emit carbon. Nations like the US, the UK, and other Western nations would have to be out of their minds to agree to a regime that allows China and India to emit far more carbon per capita than themselves, in order to meet some Utopian ideal of “fairness” in economic success.

    If activists honestly want to limit carbon emissions, then they would argue for consistent limits for all nations. This kind of system reveals the underlying animosity to modernization and economic success that lies at the heart of the environmental movement in general and global-warming hysterics in particular.
    I'm sorry, but how the heck can anyone take these climate change morons seriously?
  • Jul 15, 2009, 04:35 PM
    paraclete
    Tom
    I agree, this whole thing has an element of paranoia about it. Perhaps the sky is falling, perhaps it isn't, Many have been highly selective about the statistics they have used.
    We all know we have to change the way we produce energy because we will have problems with sustainability and there are problems associated with carbon cycle energy production but we must be careful or we may have that depression we are trying to avoid.

    There are people trying to prove it's getting colder using statistics for the last ten years, there are people comparing us with various periods using ice core data and there are those who are correctly observing the glaciers are continuing to melt but what is unscientific is that we are fortune telling because of all this analysis, but they have no comparative industralised period to compare us with, a fact that has thus far eluded them
  • Jul 15, 2009, 05:20 PM
    speechlesstx
    And then there are those who finally admit, the models may be all wrong.
  • Jul 15, 2009, 07:13 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    And then there are those who finally admit, the models may be all wrong.

    No! Really! There is actually something our worthy scientists don't know. Well who would have suspected that?
  • Jul 16, 2009, 03:03 AM
    tomder55

    I smell Y2K
  • Jul 16, 2009, 06:28 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    And then there are those who finally admit, the models may be all wrong.

    excon,

    Have you read this article? Are they IDers too? Are you willing yet to admit that the so-called scientists who support global warming are unsure of themselves? Are you willing to admit yet that the science isn't "proven" or "settled" and that there is still a great bit more research to do? Are you willing to admit that they could be wrong, even though their opinions (and I use that word deliberately) closely match yours?

    Elliot
  • Jul 16, 2009, 06:55 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    excon,

    Have you read this article? Are they IDers too? Are you willing yet to admit that the so-called scientists who support global warming are unsure of themselves? Are you willing to admit yet that the science isn't "proven" or "settled" and that there is still a great bit more research to do? Are you willing to admit that they could be wrong, even though their opinions (and I use that word deliberately) closely match yours?

    I don't know if he will or not but I have my doubts. But here's the kicker to me, as everyone admits it seems, the new cap and tax plan won't solve the 'problem.' As the previous blog I posted shows, they're considering hypothetical ways to be "fair" in solving the 'problem' by sticking it to the wealthiest people, because it's "true pretty much" that the more money you have the more you contribute to the 'problem.'

    Now, if this is such a potential catastrophe as our new science czar and this Democrat congress and administration seem to think, why aren't they trying to solve the 'problem?' What the heck does "true pretty much" and economic justice have to do with the science of climate change? Seriously folks, if you have a major global catastrophe looming what's the point of useless solutions? That right there should tell you it's just an agenda.
  • Jul 16, 2009, 07:11 AM
    excon

    Hello again, righty's:

    Please pay attention. I'm not a global warming dude. I'm a don't throw your trash into the air dude, because it does BAD things, one of which might be global warming.

    excon
  • Jul 16, 2009, 07:33 AM
    KISS

    Devil's advocate:

    The Earth is in an elliptical orbit, so could we actuallly be closer to the sun now?
  • Jul 16, 2009, 07:35 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, righty's:

    Please pay attention. I'm not a global warming dude. I'm a don't throw your trash into the air dude, because it does BAD things, one of which might be global warming.

    I got that, but you argue that you are siding with the scientists, who now admit they may be all wrong. You argue that since the science is right we need to do something to prevent this potential catastrophe. More and more the science is coming up short, can you admit that? And since the 'solution' doesn't do anything to solve this pressing 'problem' doesn't that make you the least bit skeptical as well?
  • Jul 16, 2009, 07:54 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I got that, but you argue that you are siding with the scientists, who now admit they may be all wrong.

    Hello Steve:

    I'm siding with scientists who say that throwing your trash into the air ain't good. If they say that they might be wrong, about that now, I'd say they're full of it.

    Look. If you throw a coin up into the air, it's going to fall back down. I don't need any scientist to tell me that, and I'm not going to believe any scientist who tells me that the coin ISN'T going to do what I KNOW it's going to do.

    Throwing trash into the air ain't good. Does it cause global warming?? I don't know, but it DOES SOMETHING!! And, whatever it does, it AIN'T good.

    excon
  • Jul 16, 2009, 12:25 PM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Throwing trash into the air ain't good. Does it cause global warming??? I dunno, but it DOES SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And, whatever it does, it AIN'T good.

    excon

    THAT is an assumption. It is a poor one, too. Going back to my soda-can example, what does my throwing a soda can in the air do besides make a loud noise when it hits the ground?

    Your assumption doesn't discuss the nature of the "garbage" in question. It doesn't discuss HOW it gets into the air. It doesn't even know for sure IF it causes something bad to happen.

    In other words, you are taking a very simplistic approach to something that is a lot more complicated than that. It might make you feel superior to discuss these things in simplistic terms so that you can make believe your are an adult talking to children, but it is intellectually dishonest. It glosses over too many facts that HAVE been proven and too many questions that don't have answers yet.

    You don't KNOW what happens when you throw stuff in the air. You don't know whether the stuff is actually garbage or something benefficial. And you are only ASSUMING that what the stuff does is bad, but you don't actually know. And you aren't intellectually honest enough to say "I don't know." Even if the scientists you are relying on have said just that.

    If the scientists, whom you say you agree with because they understand this stuff and you don't, are saying they don't know, why can't you say the same thing?

    Elliot
  • Jul 16, 2009, 12:32 PM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid View Post
    Devil's advocate:

    The Earth is in an elliptical orbit, so could we actuallly be closer to the sun now?

    Partly true. But that would only make sense if there was actual global warming. The trend over the past several years has been one of global COOLING. Average temps have dropped over the past few years, and we are experiencing some of the coolest temperatures of any July since temp records have been kept. Ditto for June.

    The primary cause of temperature change in the world is the temperature of the sun. The temperature of the sun is not constant. Scientists say that the sun is cooling slightly. The sun cools and warms in cyclical patterns and we happen to be in a cooling cycle right now.

    The elipses of the Earth's orbit around the sun and the Earth's angle to the sun is an explanation for the seasons. But it doesn't explain multi-year global cooling or warming trends.

    But you are on the right track. The SUN is the key to temperatures on Earth, not human activity.

    Elliot
  • Jul 16, 2009, 12:35 PM
    excon

    Hello again, Elliot:

    Throwing trash into the environment DAMAGES the environment!

    I understand that you don't think so.

    You and I don't live on the same planet. I won't discuss this any more with you until you get some help.

    excon
  • Jul 16, 2009, 01:04 PM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Elliot:

    Throwing trash into the environment DAMAGES the environment!

    THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE.

    What you said before is "Throwing trash into the air ain't good."

    Now... how does one throw trash into the environment? Does my soda can example do it?

    Quote:

    I understand that you don't think so.
    No you don't. Because you clearly don't even understand your OWN position, much less anyone else's. If you DID understand your position, you would be able to articulate it and the reasoning behind it. But you have already admitted that you can't.

    Quote:

    You and I don't live on the same planet.
    What color is the sky on the planet you're living on?

    Quote:

    I won't discuss this any more with you until you get some help.

    Excon
    Your choice. As the Worf on Star Trek: The Next Generation says, "Then die in ignorance. I can waste no more time on you." ("The Emissary", Season Two ---And no, I'm not telling you to drop dead. I'm telling you that you are ignorant and unwilling to learn anything.)

    Elliot
  • Jul 18, 2009, 03:55 PM
    paraclete
    We are all going to fry some day
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by keepitsimplestupid View Post
    devil's advocate:

    The earth is in an elliptical orbit, so could we actuallly be closer to the sun now?

    Seems to me we have just about enough ability to measure that but perhaps not the good sense to do it

  • All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:43 AM.