Or does it? Yeah I'm daring to go there again...

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£6m drive to cut teen pregnancies sees them DOUBLE

By Daniel Martin
Last updated at 8:20 AM on 08th July 2009

A multi-million pound initiative to reduce teenage pregnancies more than doubled the number of girls conceiving.

The Government-backed scheme tried to persuade teenage girls not to get pregnant by handing out condoms and teaching them about sex.

But research funded by the Department of Health shows that young women who attended the programme, at a cost of £2,500 each, were 'significantly' more likely to become pregnant than those on other youth programmes who were not given contraception and sex advice.

A total of 16 per cent of those on the Young People's Development Programme conceived compared with just 6 per cent in other programmes.

Experts said the scheme failed because it introduced girls 'at risk' of becoming pregnant to promiscuous girls they might not otherwise have met.

Because of peer pressure, the more timid teenagers were more likely to have sex and become pregnant.

The £5.9million YPDP programme was also designed to slash cannabis use and drunkenness among teenagers, but made no difference whatsoever.

Last night ministers pledged to drop the scheme after admitting it had failed. Around 40,000 teenage girls become pregnant every year in the UK, the highest level in western Europe.

The failed YPDP, launched in 2004, was based on a similar scheme in New York claimed to have significantly reduced teenage pregnancies.

However, attempts to replicate the work elsewhere in the U.S. did not lead to a fall in teenage pregnancies, casting doubt on the project as a whole.

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Let's see, teach kids about sex and hand them condoms and teen pregnancies more than double. Who'd a thunk it? Maybe Texas was right to drop the state's health education requirement.

Your turn...

Sex education begins at birth with parents as teachers. Unfortunately, parents have been notoriously poor (scared, uninformed, inadequate) teachers. The first question should be, how do we remedy that so sex education doesn't fall to the schools?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

The first question should be, how do we remedy that so sex education doesn't fall to the schools?

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Wow, I'm actually surprised at your answer. That's a sensible question that deserves serious consideration.

I think it is important to teach teens about safe sex. The fact is, while abstinence is the best option, teens will do what teens want so they might as well be safe. I can't say that I agree handing out condoms to just everyone is such a great idea. Isn't that like saying "drinking and driving is bad." and then handing someone a six pack and keys?

I think it be great if we could just rely on parents to teach their children about sex too. But considering how many parents can't even teach their children not to run and shout inside a crowded store or restaurant, can't teach their children to say please and thank you even, I don't know that I have much hope for all parents teaching their children much about sex.

Hello Steve:

This from the linked article:

A Department of Health spokesman said: 'This pilot was based on a successful American programme. It did not appear to reduce teenage pregnancy so we will not be taking it any further.'

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I don't know why it doesn't work on European girls, but it apparently worked here. You don't want to be influenced by those Europeans anyway, do you? Next you'll be listening to the French.

excon

If parents would pull their heads out of their @$$ this stuff would work. My high school handed out condoms you know how many kids I have 0. You know how many girls I got pregnant who then had abortions 0.

I credit both my parents and my high school sex ed class for this. I can still see those pictures of guys who had STD's nasty stuff man.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Steve:

This from the linked article:

A Department of Health spokesman said: 'This pilot was based on a successful American programme. It did not appear to reduce teenage pregnancy so we will not be taking it any further.'

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I dunno why it doesn't work on European girls, but it apparently worked here. You don't want to be influenced by those Europeans anyway, do you? Next you'll be listening to the French.

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It also says (which I highlighted) "attempts to replicate the work elsewhere in the U.S. did not lead to a fall in teenage pregnancies, casting doubt on the project as a whole."

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Sex education begins at birth with parents as teachers.

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And it should stay there.

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Unfortunately, parents have been notoriously poor (scared, uninformed, inadequate) teachers. The first question should be, how do we remedy that so sex education doesn't fall to the schools?

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Oh, that's easy. Just stop teaching sex ed in schools. It's not the government's job, it's not the school's job. It is the job of parents. Regardless of whether the parents do the job well or not, schools should stay out of it. It ain't the public school's job to fix the failings of parents.

THAT is how you remedy it so that it doesn't fall to the schools. You simply leave them out of it.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Steve:

This from the linked article:

A Department of Health spokesman said: 'This pilot was based on a successful American programme. It did not appear to reduce teenage pregnancy so we will not be taking it any further.'

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I dunno why it doesn't work on European girls, but it apparently worked here. You don't want to be influenced by those Europeans anyway, do you? Next you'll be listening to the French.

excon

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"Successful" as defined by whom? By that DOH official, certainly. But how did he measure "success" of the American system. Statistically speaking, it's been as much of a failure in the USA as it was in the UK. So I'm not sure how he is defining "success" in the system.

On the other hand, it seems that the UK knows enough to stop what ain't working. The USA could learn from our British cousins.

Elliot

I am biased on this answer... I for one, have been teaching my daughter, who is 5, all I can. (within reason of course! She is only 5) mostly about 'good touch bad touch' for now, and stranger danger.

I was raped when I was 11, because I didn't know what the guy was doing to me until it hurt, in which case it was too late, he was 19 and very capable of holding me down.

We didn't have sex ed in schools (nor did my parents teach me about it) until I was 13. Had I KNOWN about any of it, I would NOT have followed this guy into the woods like he asked me to.

So yeah... I will be teaching my daughter as soon as she can understand it. I want her SAFE. I don't want her to go through what I did.

But then again, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. Yes... she may get pregnant as a teen... however, as horrible as it sounds, I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather her have sex CONSENTUALLY, and on her own terms, and ENJOY it, than have her be raped.

Being raped so young completely DESTROYED my chances at a NORMALY sexual life. Fortunately my hsuband is patient with my fears and flashbacks, but my child should NOT have to deal with this...



Wow sorry to rant...

Yeah... I am completely FOR sex education! And I say it should be a normal part of the education process.

Does anybody else see the coloration between the sexual revolution of the 60's and the rise in STD's and teen pregnancies?
Bottom line is no matter how much Sex education kids get, it will never stop the problem. The problem has to be attacked on moral, yes religious grounds. Our society needs to return to a moral society. Then and only then will this problem actually go down.

Hello 450:

I see a connection between the PILL and the sexual revolution. Now we simply need people to USE it. I suggest that what lies in the way of full compliance, is sex education - or the lack thereof.

Morals has nothing to do with it. In fact, there are good and moral people who engage in non-marital sex. I know you think they're all going to hell, but that's another thread.

excon

The catholic school down the street from my public high school had more teen pregnancy then my school. And they didn't have any sex ed class.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Does anybody else see the coloration between the sexual revolution of the 60's and the rise in STD's and teen pregnancies??
Bottom line is no matter how much Sex education kids get, it will never stop the problem. The problem has to be attacked on moral, yes religious grounds. Our society needs to return to a moral society. Then and only then will this problem actually go down.

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No one (especially not someone from a Christian home) EVER got pregnant sans marriage before the late '60s...

Yeah, I went to a private school. Grades k-8.the church tried to do this coffee house thing to get people together and create a fun social environment. They stopped it because they caught too many 7th and 8th graders having a little too much fun...
And the girls that seemed to be the most promiscuous were the ons from the families the most involved in the church. At least one of the girls from my class whose family was deeply involved in the church (I think there were about 13 girls total) had her first baby when she was about 17.

Wondergirl, I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not... but that's not true...


People were having premarital sex and having babies before marriage LONG before the 60s. They were known as spinsters. And they just weren't talked about. Like child abuse. Its something that's kept behing closed doors. 'its a family issue' was the trend back then.

Its always happened. We are just more aware of it now.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello 450:

I see a connection between the PILL and the sexual revolution. Now we simply need people to USE it. I suggest that what lies in the way of full compliance, is sex education - or the lack thereof.

Morals has nothing to do with it. In fact, there are good and moral people who engage in non-marital sex. I know you think they're all going to hell, but that's another thread.

excon

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Anyone who reads the pregnancy questions posted on this site will realize that today's teens have no interest in birth control. They can get it for free, easily, without parents knowing, but it's not something they think seriously about (especially not at that party at Suzy's house last week).

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Originally Posted by jenniepepsi

wondergirl, im not sure if you were being sarcastic or not...but thats not true...


people were having premarital sex and having babies before marriage LONG before the 60s. they were known as spinsters. and they just werent talked about. like child abuse. its something thats kept behing closed doors. 'its a family issue' was the trend back then.

its always happend. we are just more aware of it now.

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I was being sarcastic (thus the "................"). I can give you a list of names of my high school classmates who were having sex and "backstreet abortions" and secret babies back in the early '60s.

They were not known as spinsters. Those were the women who never married.

Yes, unwed mothers were talked about, but not out loud, just in hushed whispers. Pregnant girls were sent away to an aunt's for "schooling" or "vacation" or "to lend a hand" until after the baby was born and given up for adoption.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Anyone who reads the pregnancy questions posted on this site will realize that today's teens have no interest in birth control. They can get it for free, easily, without parents knowing, but it's not something they think seriously about (especially not at that party at Suzy's house last week).

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Hello CB:

Then their fathers should strap on a chastity belt. I'll bet 450 approves of THAT!

excon

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

And it should stay there.



Oh, that's easy. Just stop teaching sex ed in schools. It's not the government's job, it's not the school's job. It is the job of parents. Regardless of whether the parents do the job well or not, schools should stay out of it. It ain't the public school's job to fix the failings of parents.

THAT is how you remedy it so that it doesn't fall to the schools. You simply leave them out of it.

Elliot

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That's what NOT to do. What is your solution TO DO when parents fall short with educating their kids, and the fall out is unwanted babies and tax payer burden.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I was being sarcastic (thus the "................"). I can give you a list of names of my high school classmates who were having sex and "backstreet abortions" and secret babies back in the early '60s.

They were not known as spinsters. Those were the women who never married.

Yes, unwed mothers were talked about, but not out loud, just in hushed whispers. Pregnant girls were sent away to an aunt's for "schooling" or "vacation" or "to lend a hand" until after the baby was born and given up for adoption.

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Ahhh see, I misudnerstood the term spinster :) thanks.

I thought you were being sarcastic :P

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Our society needs to return to a moral society. Then and only then will this problem actually go down.

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I grew up in that moral society. It was in small-town America where every family was Catholic, Lutheran, or Methodist. All went to church on Sunday mornings (no stores were open and no work was done at home either). Families attended church picnics and vacation Bible school in the summer, and, by the time you were 16, you were expected to help out in Sunday School or go to the adult Bible classes. The church was the center of social life.

If that society was so moral, why did the kids drive up to Devil's Nose by the lake and "park"? Why were there "submarine races"? Why was the ride called "Over the Falls" the most popular for teens at Seabreeze Amusement Park? Did the fact that, before it went up and over the "falls," each boat floated along slowly inside a very dark tunnel have anything to do with it? Why did so many dates start in town at a movie, go to Dairy Queen, and end up in a cornfield? (Do you know how well-hidden a car is in a summer cornfield?)

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I grew up in that moral society. It was in small-town America where every family was Catholic, Lutheran, or Methodist. All went to church on Sunday mornings (no stores were open and no work was done at home either). Families attended church picnics and vacation Bible school in the summer, and, by the time you were 16, you were expected to help out in Sunday School or go to the adult Bible classes. The church was the center of social life.

If that society was so moral, why did the kids drive up to Devil's Nose by the lake and "park"? Why were there "submarine races"? Why was the ride called "Over the Falls" the most popular for teens at Seabreeze Amusement Park? Did the fact that fact that, before it went up and over the "falls," each boat floated along slowly inside a very dark tunnel have anything to do with it? Why did so many dates start in town at a movie, go to Dairy Queen, and end up in a cornfield? (Do you know how well-hidden a car is in a summer cornfield?)

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Well said :D

Hello again, Wondergirl:

I don't know. I grew up in a hip city to leftist parents who didn't go to church or Temple. I STILL wasn't getting any.

Maybe it was the cornfield. We didn't have any of them around.

excon

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Anyone who reads the pregnancy questions posted on this site will realize that today's teens have no interest in birth control. They can get it for free, easily, without parents knowing, but it's not something they think seriously about (especially not at that party at Suzy's house last week).

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In a culture that promotes promiscuity, sexual empowerment for teens, that makes contraceptives – even prescription contraceptives - readily available to kids and abortion providers that still agree to provide abortions to minors without parental consent in violation of state law, is it really any wonder that kids don’t listen to parents? Society has taught them to bypass parental values and authority.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

That's what NOT to do. What is your solution TO DO when parents fall short with educating their kids, and the fall out is unwanted babies and tax payer burden.

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Again blaming the parents for their 'shortfalls.' Why is it that no one else ever fails our kids, like Planned Parenthood and the schools?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

In a culture that promotes promiscuity, sexual empowerment for teens, that makes contraceptives – even prescription contraceptives - readily available to kids and abortion providers that still agree to provide abortions to minors without parental consent in violation of state law, is it really any wonder that kids don’t listen to parents? Society has taught them to bypass parental values and authority.

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But the parents aren't the ones telling them anything. So why don't kids use readily-available birth control? Certainly teens have good common sense and know that a pregnancy can result from having sex...

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But the parents aren't the ones telling them anything. So why don't kids use readily-available birth control? Certainly teens have good common sense and know that a pregnancy can result from having sex...................

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Not sure what you meant by that first line, but I don't really know that anyone, schools or parents can get through to many teens in the face of the culture they live in... but I'd generally rather it be left up to the parents.

Bottom line is, there isn't much you can do about it.

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Originally Posted by jenniepepsi

I am biased on this answer....I for one, have been teaching my daughter, who is 5, all i can. (within reason of course! she is only 5) mostly about 'good touch bad touch' for now, and stranger danger.

i was raped when i was 11, because i didnt know what the guy was doing to me untill it hurt, in which case it was too late, he was 19 and very capable of holding me down.

we didnt have sex ed in schools (nor did my parents teach me about it) untill i was 13. had i KNOWN about any of it, i would NOT have followed this guy into the woods like he asked me to.

so yeah...i will be teaching my daughter as soon as she can understand it. i want her SAFE. i dont want her to go thru what i did.

but then again, im on the oposite end of the spectrum. yes...she may get pregnant as a teen...however, as horrible as it sounds, i would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather her have sex CONSENTUALLY, and on her own terms, and ENJOY it, than have her be raped.

being raped so young completely DESTROYED my chances at a NORMALY sexual life. fortunately my hsuband is patient with my fears and flashbacks, but my child should NOT have to deal with this...



wow sorry to rant...

yeah...i am completely FOR sex education! and i say it should be a normal part of the education process.

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Jenniepepsi,

Your story is a touching one. I am sorry for the experience you had as a kid. BTW, I was also molested as a kid by a trusted adult, so I know a bit about what you are speaking.

I think that you are taking the right approach with your daughter. YOU are taking the responsibility to teach her what you think she is able to handle, rather than relying on a school system to do it for you. I salute you for this.

I happen to have a background in the martial arts. I am teaching my 8-year-old son and 7-year-old daughter how to defend themselves. (I'm not teaching them the stuff you use in sparring or sport fighting. I'm teaching them the REAL martial arts... how to cause real damage to an opponent, including broken bones, torn muscles, dislocated joints and unconsciousness. I want my kids to REALLY be able to defend themselves.) That is part of my daughter's anti-rape and my son's anti-molestation training. In my judgement, they are too young to talk about sex at this point, so I am waiting for what I judge to be the right time to educate them in that area. But that's MY choice.

The point is that I'm taking that responsibility on myself, not leaving it to their schools. Sex ed, including education about sexual predation, is too important an issue to leave to the state or the schools.

Thanks for your story. It is a compelling one.

Elliot

In ireland it is a falsely held belief that if you have a baby you will get free housing.. however you can get on a housing list and usually within 3 years you will get free housing with reduced rent.
What you do get is a lone parents allowance from the social welfare,rent allowance,free medical,free dental treatment and when your child attends school another allowance to cover the cost of their education.
As a single mother you are entitled to a back to work allowance ALONG with your other social welfare allowances,grants for college,oh,and a child minding grant!

Sounds good.

Our social welfare system is broke.

My two teenage daughters are going on 17 and 18 and have only gotten one 40 min sex education class since they started school.

At the end of the current school year 3 girls under the age of 17 were pregnant in their school,and proud of it,as were there parents.

How the hell do you fight a system that only verbally bow hoos teen pregnancy,but supports it with their actions.

I would also like to say that I was also a teen mother,and used,yes used the very same system for two years,to further my education and become independent of the state.
The system here makes it easy to sit back and take advantage..
A time limit on social welfare supports should be in place,or at least policed so the recipient is forced to avaluate their situation and make improved ajustments to better their position.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello 450:

I see a connection between the PILL and the sexual revolution. Now we simply need people to USE it. I suggest that what lies in the way of full compliance, is sex education - or the lack thereof.

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I agree. The most effective way to use the pill is to have the female squeeze it tightly between her knees. Any other method of use still leaves the possibility of pregnancy, AND the possibility of STDs.

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Morals has nothing to do with it. In fact, there are good and moral people who engage in non-marital sex. I know you think they're all going to hell, but that's another thread.

Excon

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You're right, excon. Morals have nothing to do with it. But what you teach kids is what kids do. If you teach them about having sex, they will have sex.

For you, the goal seems to be preventing teen pregnancy because it's bad for kids. Not because of the moral issues, but because of the health issues.

For me, the goal is preventing teen sex because it's bad for kids. Not because of the moral issues, but because of the health issues.

And the fact is that preventing teen sex is less likely to result in teen pregnancy or STD transmission than teaching them to use a condom or the pill. That is a fact that you simply cannot spin. Unless you happen to be Christian and believe in the immaculate conception, it is impossible for someone who has not had sex to become pregnant. And even if you are Christian and believe in the story of Jesus, the liklihood of it happening AGAIN, 2000 years after the last time it happened, is minimal... much lower than the chances of getting pregnant using a condom or with birth control.

BTW, my wife became pregnant with my 2nd child while she was on a birth control pill. They aren't all that effective, truth to tell. And condoms break. They are less than 100% effective. And many STDs are not prevented through condom use anyway.

Teaching sex ed is much less effective a method than teaching abstinence.

In any case, the question isn't WHAT we should teach. The question is WHO should be doing the teaching. I think that's the parents' prerogative. You, as usual, want to rely on the government to take care of it for you.

I don't trust the government that far. There was a time you didn't either, but you've changed over time. The government should teach kids about sex, should take care of your medical care, etc.

What ever happened to your healthy libertarian distrust of government?

You've become a shill for The Man. It's rather disappointing.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Again blaming the parents for their 'shortfalls.' Why is it that no one else ever fails our kids, like Planned Parenthood and the schools?

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Because ET doesn't believe in Planned Parenthood and the schools teaching sex ed.. So my question to him is where do they get correct info when the parent falls short. He says it is only the parent's job. He does not have a solution for when the parent does not do it.
I say don't complain if you don't have a better solution.

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Originally Posted by redhed35

The system here makes it easy to sit back and take advantage..
A time limit on social welfare supports should be in place,or at least policed so the recipient is forced to avaluate their situation and make improved ajustments to better their position.

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Unfortunately our system works much the same way.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

Because ET doesn't believe in Planned Parenthood and the schools teaching sex ed.. So my question to him is where do they get correct info when the parent falls short. He says it is only the parent's job. He does not have a solution for when the parent does not do it.
I say don't complain if you don't have a better solution.

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I think you missed the point. Whether Elliot believes in PP or sex ed in schools is irrelevant to my question. Why is it that no one else ever fails our kids, like Planned Parenthood and the schools? Why do people on your side of the fence on this always blame the parents?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Not sure what you meant by that first line, but I don't really know that anyone, schools or parents can get through to many teens in the face of the culture they live in...but I'd generally rather it be left up to the parents.

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Parents (and the church), if they tried (and most of the time, they didn't), didn't get through to the teens back in the '40s and '50s and '60s either.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

they are too young to talk about sex at this point

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You've already missed the boat with them. Sex should be part of the conversation from birth on. You don't think their peers talk about sex?

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

You're right, excon. Morals have nothing to do with it. But what you teach kids is what kids do. If you teach them about having sex, they will have sex.

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Back when rocks were cooling, most of my peers' parents never said a word about sex to their kids. Mum was the word. Parents knew kids would immediately try it if they were taught anything about sex. We kids were supposed to figure out everything by osmosis. Most of them did by trial and error--in the back seats of cars, in hay lofts, in dark stairwells, at home where parents were out shopping, at home in the rec room with parents upstairs in the living room.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I grew up in that moral society. It was in small-town America where every family was Catholic, Lutheran, or Methodist. All went to church on Sunday mornings (no stores were open and no work was done at home either). Families attended church picnics and vacation Bible school in the summer, and, by the time you were 16, you were expected to help out in Sunday School or go to the adult Bible classes. The church was the center of social life.

If that society was so moral, why did the kids drive up to Devil's Nose by the lake and "park"? Why were there "submarine races"? Why was the ride called "Over the Falls" the most popular for teens at Seabreeze Amusement Park? Did the fact that, before it went up and over the "falls," each boat floated along slowly inside a very dark tunnel have anything to do with it? Why did so many dates start in town at a movie, go to Dairy Queen, and end up in a cornfield? (Do you know how well-hidden a car is in a summer cornfield?)

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Really amazing WG you again did not read what I said. I said it would go down! I never said or implied teen pregnancy or the spread of STD's would be eliminated. All you as a librarian need to do is look at the statistics for the transmission of STD's and teen pregnancy and you can see when it really started it's climb. It was in the 60's.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Our society needs to return to a moral society. Then and only then will this problem actually go down.

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That will never happen. The worm has turned. You can't stuff the genie (I. e. freedom, personal rights) back into the bottle. There's no way to force this country into what you call a "moral society" again short of a nuclear catastrophe or some kind of decimation of the population where theocrats are in charge. Please hand me a burqa now already.