Ask Me Help Desk - General Motors and zipper peas

GENERAL MOTORS AND ZIPPER PEAS

I wanted to plant some zipper peas this year. They are a round, cream pea that is delicious and so easy to shell. Unfortunately, I could not find any seed.

About now, you are asking, just what does this have to do with General Motors.

We have just witnessed a very dangerous precedent being set. The president of the USA has forced the CEO of a company to resign. The justification for this action being twofold. First, the company is about to go under, and second, GM accepted public money to prop it up. I won’t go into the why of GM’s problem in the first placel

If this action is allowed to stand, then the same rationale can be used in the future against any company. If it gets public money, and the president or one of his appointees thinks it is failing, then government will essentially take control of that business. All for our good, of course.

Now think about this. What major industry has been accepting public money for many years now?

The answer I have in mind is agriculture.

Now suppose that a large agricultural corporation has a bad year or two. Based on what we have just seen, could we expect the government to step in and take control of that corporation? I think we could. After all, what is REALLY too big to fail if not a major producer of foodstuffs?

So we would have a government appointee managing food production. Never mind that he got the job because he is party hack with no farming experience.

In 1993 I was in Russia near Moscow and stayed for a few days at a commune. I learned some things there.

Those of you who can remember even recent history know that the USSR could never feed itself. It had to buy grain and other things regularly. Now that was not because Russia did not have good farm land. It was because those managing the communes were not appointed for their expertise, but because of their party connections.

The same government that had incompetent farm managers also ran the factories. What happened was that even when crops were planted and ready to harvest, many times machines broke down, and parts were not readily available. Those running the farms were also running the manufacture and distribution of replacement parts. Those crops rotted in the field.

What does all this have to do with zipper peas? The reason given to me is that so many farms have converted over to producing corn for ethanol, a subsidized crop, that not enough people are growing peas for seed..

Think about where all this wonderful change is headed.

John

Good point, Gal.

Worse, the "too big to fail" justification could be applied to just about any industry. The auto industry, the Banking industry, agriculture, computers, construction, telecom, etc. are all too big to fail. Any of them can be forced to take money from the government (as some banks were forced to do), and be taken over by the government.

The precedent is scary.

Elliot

The Soviet style market planners have their sights on much more than the agricultural industry .
The Obama administration decided they will no longer call the war against jihadistan the Global War on Terror or the Long War . They have changed the name to an "Overseas Contingency Operation."

Replacing the GWOT will be the GWOB... the Global War on Business. I suspect the G-20 meetings are to recruit a coalition of the willing .

The opening salvos of inciting a populist outrage against AIG and the firing of GM CEO Rick Wagoner ;the President mandating that Chrysler be sold to Fiat, are being followed up by the Bwaney Fwank Pay for Performance Act of 2009 which will
"prohibit unreasonable and excessive compensation and compensation not based on performance standards."

This represents a large escalation .Companies that made the mistake of going to Washington with their hands out will be subject to compensation restrictions the Biz~tzar Tim Geithner thinks they should be allowed to receive. He alone will decide what is "unreasonable" and "excessive" .
Does anyone believe that they will stop with these companies ?Well consider then that most companies start under federal small business loans ,and expand it from there . Wage controls are already in place to a degree in this country . They are about to be greatly expanded .

Workers of America Unite under our new national slogan :
“They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work.”

Hello:

Yeah, bummer there's some adult supervision in Washington. Of course, you guys don't like it. As a matter of fact, the more you guys yell, the better he's doing.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

Well consider then that most companies start under federal small business loans ,and expand it from there .

I really doubt this. I don't know what percentage of new business startups are funded by loans from the Federal Government, but I'll bet it's a tiny minority, certainly not "most".

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

I really doubt this. I don't know what percentage of new business startups are funded by loans from the Federal Government, but I'll bet it's a tiny minority, certainly not "most".

Agreed.

Over the last 10 years, the Small Business Administration has been responsible for well over $100 billion in small business credit extensions, more than any single private lender.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

Over the last 10 years, the Small Business Administration has been responsible for well over $100 billion in small business credit extensions, more than any single private lender.

Of course, as I'm sure you're aware, most SBA loans are made to established businesses, not startups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

Yeah, bummer there's some adult supervision in Washington. Of course, you guys don't like it. As a matter of fact, the more you guys yell, the better he's doing.

excon

Can you give an example of something... anything... that he's doing well? Especially in terms of helping the economy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Can you give an example of something... anything... that he's doing well? Especially in terms of helping the economy?

Hello again, El:

Uhhh, how about trying to save the world from the Bush Depression?

excon

I said "something he's doing WELL."

Quadrupaling the national deficit and increasing the national debt to $11 trillion doesn't qualify as doing it well.

And now GM is going make your car payment (I assume with our money) if you lose your job, and the Feds are going to back your warranty. I guess now would be the time to buy a new GM before you lose your job so you the Feds can use taxpayer money to make your car payment and take care of it when it's broken... and pay your extended unemployment, your house payment, your health coverage...

OG
The SBA does not lend directly but instead offers to guarantee private loans .The truth is almost all lenders shy away from startups because of the extremely high failure rates (80% is the number I most often hear) .An SBA guarantee makes the loan less risky for the bank.

Therefore an SBA backed loan would be a 1st choice option for a startup as the expressed purpose of the SBA is to help Americans start, build, and grow businesses... especially for business owners seeking loans who may not have the collateral required for typical commercial loans.

If you can provide stats that prove me wrong I'm willing to see them .

But this is just a diversion from my larger point.

Tell me what is to prevent the administration from placing all types of intolerable conditions on the use of any Federal funding ? As I mentioned in another posting ,Obama is telling GM what cars they must divest from their catalogue (including about 1/2 of their profitable lines).He has told Chrysler they must make a merger deal with a foreign auto company (Fiat ).

He is even telling GM and Chrysler they can no longer participate in an activity that has been an important marketing tool for them (NASCAR) .

This came under the recommedation of Obama's Auto Task force which has NO member in it with any auto industry experience.

Will it save either company ? Nope at best it will put them on temporary life support. With Wagoner directing them GM had a chance.

Monsanto is going to be the "ruling elite" when it comes to food, seeds or anything agriculture wise shortly. They already have the GM (genetically modified) seeds that literally rape the soil of any nutrients so other seeds cannot grow properly. The GM seeds cannot be used for another planting season and are only used once. The seeds are engineered to only grow one crop period. Interestingly all the seeds at the Seed Vault are GM seeds. How in the blue blazes are any survivors going to survive more than one growing season if they can't gather up viable seeds for a second or third or fourth growing season? Answer: They aren't. One growing season and then they starve. If people actually need these seeds to live on a.) how are they going to get to an island in the extreme far North and b) how are they going to have more than one growing season to survive? I don't know but I do know that Montsanto is on a roll all over the US and the globe pushing their GM seeds. Oh, and also I don't know if you realize that the GM food products are actually inferior to the "heritage" food products? The GM food products have very little nutritional value to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

If you can provide stats that prove me wrong I'm willing to see them .

If you can provide stats that prove you're right, I'm willing to see them.

Quote:

With Wagoner directing them GM had a chance.

Yes, with Wagoner directing them they did have a chance, and they blew it. They bet the Company that fuel would stay cheap and people would continue to buy large vehicles, and they lost that bet. If they had ANY alternative but bankruptcy do you thing they would humiliate themselves by begging for crumbs from the Government?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

If you can provide stats that prove you're right, I'm willing to see them.

Yes, with Wagoner directing them they did have a chance, and they blew it. They bet the Company that fuel would stay cheap and people would continue to buy large vehicles, and they lost that bet. If they had ANY alternative but bankruptcy do you thing they would humiliate themselves by begging for crumbs from the Government?

The pay scale for uniion workers at GM plants is out of proportion in relation to other manufacturers. I don't begrudge them of anything they can get but that made GM unable to compete.

The union will have to back down or they will all be out of work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by galveston

The pay scale for uniion workers at GM plants is out of proportion in relation to other manufacturers. I don't begrudge them of anything they can get but that made GM unable to compete.

The union will have to back down or they will all be out of work.

This may be a first Gal, but I agree with you 100%. A friend of mine used to say, "Greedy greedy makes a hungry puppy."

Ann Coulter made a good point (yes she is capable of that at times), "Apparently, it's OK for Obama to fire the head of General Motors, but Bush can't fire his own U.S. attorneys."

That was in 2006, and today Congress is still investigating, while Obama fires a CEO and vows to remake the Board of Directors in his image. Where's the outrage?

OG,

The SBA has a specific program, the 7A program, that is a loan-guarantee program for startups. The 7A program also provides counseling and advice for startup operators.

The 8A program is for existing small businesses.

The 504 program is for minority and women-owned businesses.

I have no idea what the actual breakdown of 7A vs. 8A vs. 504 loan guarantees is. And I'm willing to bet that you don't either.

And keep in mind that I'm a small business lender. I make SBA loans for a living... or rather as part of my job. If I don't have that data, I doubt that you do either.

Elliot

I can't help wonder what would have happened if the CEO of GM had just said "no" when he was "asked to resign".

It seems to me that Obama would have been in a corner. He would have then had to go to the courts and prove he has the authority to do such thing.

I expect not all CEO's will ba as co-operative. Or at least, they SHOULDN'T be!

Quote:

What is going on in this country? The government is about to take over GM in a plan that completely screws private bondholders and favors the unions. Get this: The GM bondholders own $27 billion and they’re getting 10 percent of the common stock in an expected exchange. And the UAW owns $10 billion of the bonds and they’re getting 40 percent of the stock. Huh? Did I miss something here? And Uncle Sam will have a controlling share of the stock with something close to 50 percent ownership. And no bankruptcy judge. So this is a political restructuring run by the White House, not a rule-of-law bankruptcy-court reorganization.

Sigh... this sucks. Coming soon, your Obamobile purchased through your Obamabank to drive you to your Obamastretician appointment. Welcome to Obamaland.

Laugh of the week . Wednesday the President said with a straight face.
"I want to disabuse people of this notion that somehow we enjoy, you know, meddling in the private sector,"

Bwaaahaaahaaahaaaaaa!!

Hello tom:

Let me disabuse our readers of the notion that the RIGHTWING believes in privacy. It is true, they don't care what goes on in the BOARDROOM - those people can screw you. They're interested in what you do in your BEDROOM. If there's any abnormal screwing going on there, they want to know!!

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello tom:

Let me disabuse our readers of the notion that the RIGHTWING believes in privacy. It is true, they don't care what goes on in the BOARDROOM - those people can screw you. They're interested in what you do in your BEDROOM. If there's any abnormal screwing going on there, they wanna know!!!

excon

Actually, excon, you have it wrong (again). If there is any abnormals screwing going on in the bedroom, we DON'T want to know. We don't want it made public. We don't want it codified into law. We don't want it acknowledged in law. What goes on in the bedroom should stay in the bedroom, and not be brought up in very public venues like the courts, public demonstrations, etc. Unfortunately, it is those who do the "abnormal screwing" who want to make it public, not us. WE want it kept OUT of the limelight.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Actually, excon, you have it wrong (again). If there is any abnormals screwing going on in the bedroom, we DON'T want to know. We don't want it made public. We don't want it codified into law.

Hello again, El:

Wrong? Me?? Dude!

If you don't want abnormal screwing codified into law, why do you pass laws that punish those who screw abnormally from you?

Dude! Did you misplace your "family values", or do you just want to SOUND liberal - which, of course, is the fair, just, and good argument?

excon

Exactly right, Elliot. Case in point here.

By the way, ex, are you saying there is no place for the law in sexual behavior? No limits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Exactly right, Elliot. Case in point here.

By the way, ex, are you saying there is no place for the law in sexual behavior? No limits?

Please post your pornography in another forum. There are children here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Wrong? Me?? Dude!

Don't get me started, ex. Do you want the long list?

Quote:

If you don't want abnormal screwing codified into law, why do you pass laws that punish those who screw abnormally from you?

I don't think it should have been. Those who did it were overstepping their bounds.

Quote:

Dude! Did you misplace your "family values", or do you just want to SOUND liberal - which, of course, is the fair, just, and good argument?

Excon

Bite your tongue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Please post your pornography in another forum. There are children here.

Sometimes you unwittingly stumble toward the point. It ain't MY pornography. That's the kind of public sexual deviancy that SHOULD be proscribed by law with severe penalties for a violation, but the left thinks it's OK to throw their perversion in our faces instead of keeping it in the bedroom in private where it belongs.

But if you're not old enough to read the huge red warning on the linked page you should stick to the kiddie pages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

It ain't MY pornography. That's the kind of public sexual deviancy that SHOULD be proscribed by law with severe penalties for a violation, but the left thinks it's OK to throw their perversion in our faces instead of keeping it in the bedroom in private where it belongs.

Dude, there's porn all over the internet, how is that the "left"'s problem?? How does porn on the internet lead you to believe that the "left" is throwing it in your face??

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Dude, there's porn all over the internet, how is that the "left"'s problem???? How does porn on the internet lead you to believe that the "left" is throwing it in your face????

Do I really have to explain it? Pay attention, NK. My point has NOTHING to do with internet porn, the internet was merely the vehicle of reporting the story. The images are of an annual live, public celebration of gay sex in San Francisco. How many conservatives do you suppose take part in the Folsom Street Fair and how much more in your face does it get than to have group sex in public?

I'm sure everyone else here gets it, I bet you even get it and just choose to deviate from the point rather than face the fact that I'm right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

The images are of an annual live, public celebration of gay sex in San Francisco.

Doesn't that happen during republican presidencies as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Doesn't that happen during republican presidencies as well?

From the link.

Quote:

W A R N I N G

The report you are about to view of the 2007 Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco contains newsworthy images of people engaged in sexual behavior in public. Although these images are not intended to be pornographic, some people may regard them as such. Because of this, only adults age 18 or over may view the images on the following page. By clicking on the button below, you agree that:

- You are at least 18 years old, and are legally regarded as an adult in the jurisdiction where you reside;

- You have consented to view images that you know to be sexual in nature;

- You are not easily offended by nudity and sexual situations, and will not later claim that you weren't sufficiently warned;

- You are viewing these images of your own volition having received due notice.

Yes, I believe Bush was president then. What the heck is your point? Do you just enjoy making meaningless, irrelevant posts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Doesn't that happen during republican presidencies as well?

Oh... my... G-d... are you really that dense?

I have never seen not heard of a Republican or Conservative of any kind being involved in a public celebration of gay sex.

Liberals and Democrats are the ones who make such public displays. THEY are the ones who bring sex out into the public. WE REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVES want to keep sex private.

Are you really that incapable of following Speech's argument?

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

I have never seen not heard of a Republican or Conservative of any kind being involved in a public celebration of gay sex.

How do you know that none of those people are republicans?

I'll agree with you that republicans are more of the hypocrite type - they prefer their gay sex in bathroom stalls and with meth addicts but they will preach against homosexuality while doing it. How conflicting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

How do you know that none of those people are republicans?

I'll agree with you that republicans are more of the hypocrite type - they prefer their gay sex in bathroom stalls and with meth addicts but they will preach against homosexuality while doing it. How conflicting.

LOL, sometimes you blow just blow our minds, NK... and trust me, that's not a good thing for you.

Some of them may be conservatives (the word I used). Some may be Republicans (the word you used). The question was, "How many conservatives do you suppose take part in the Folsom Street Fair and how much more in your face does it get than to have group sex in public?"

Will you answer the question or not?

Steve
P.S. I'd much rather have hypocrites that keep their sex to themselves than perverts that flaunt it in public.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

"How many conservatives do you suppose take part in the Folsom Street Fair

The people there are probably representative of the conservative/liberal ratio of the general public.

Before you think that conservatives have the higher moral ground:
Republican Sex Offenders

Green Bay GOP Party Chair indicted on child sex crimes | Uppity Wisconsin

Republican values create child molesters

Quote:

Republican presidential campaign official Matthew Joseph Elliott was convicted of sexual exploitation of a child.

Republican Party Chairman Donald Fleischman was charged with two counts of child enticement, two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a child and a single charge of exposing himself to a child.

Republican prosecutor John David Roy Atchison was arrested for soliciting sex from a 5-year old girl, then killed himself three weeks later. At the time of his arrest, Atchison was an "assistant U.S. attorney" appointed by President Bush's attorney general.

Republican city councilman John Bryan killed himself after police began investigating allegations that he had molested three girls, including two of his adopted daughters, ages 12 and 15.

Republican legislator Ted Klaudt was charged with raping girls under the age of 16.

Republican city councilman Joseph Monteleone Jr. was found guilty of fondling underage girls.

Republican congressional aide Jeffrey Nielsen was arrested for having sex with a 14-year old boy.

Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13.

Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.

Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.

Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.

Republican Congressman Mark Foley abruptly resigned from Congress after "sexually explicit" emails surfaced showing him flirting with a 16-year old boy.

Republican executive Randall Casseday of the conservative Washington Times newspaper pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a 13-year old girl on the internet.

Republican chairman of the Oregon Christian Coalition Lou Beres confessed to molesting a 13-year old girl.

Republican County Constable Larry Dale Floyd pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting sex from an 8-year old girl. Floyd has repeatedly won elections for Denton County, Texas, constable.

Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.

Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.

Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 14, one of them the daughter of an associate in the petition business.

Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano pleaded guilty to fondling a 14-year-old girl.

Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.

Republican campaign worker Mark Seidensticker is a convicted child molester.

Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.

Republican Mayor Tom Adams was arrested for distributing child pornography over the internet.

Republican Mayor John Gosek was arrested on charges of soliciting sex from two 15-year old girls.

Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.

Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.

Republican Committeeman John R. Curtin was convicted of molesting an underage teenage boy and sentenced to serve six to 18 months in prison.

Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.

Republican zoning supervisor, Boy Scout leader and Lutheran church president Dennis L. Rader pleaded guilty to performing a sexual act on an 11-year old girl he murdered.

Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.

Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.

Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.

Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.

Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.

Republican advertising consultant Carey Lee Cramer was sentenced to six years in prison for molesting two 8-year old girls, one of whom appeared in an anti-Gore television commercial.

Republican fundraiser Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.

Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.

Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.

Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.

Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.

Republican campaign chairman Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child and was arrested again five years later on the same charge.

Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.

Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.

Republican Judge Ronald C. Kline pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer.

Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.

Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped.

Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. "Republican Marty"), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD.
Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography.

Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media.

Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced prison after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him.

Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl.

Republican anti-gay activist Earl "Butch" Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.

Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.

Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl.

Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy.

Republican legislator Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children).

Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was found guilty of molesting a 15-year old girl.

Republican County Councilman Keola Child's pleaded guilty to molesting a male child.

Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl.

Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters.

Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl.

Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy.

Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison.

Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and fined $18,000.

Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession.

Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet.

Republican city councilman Mark Harris, who is described as a "good military man" and "church goer," was convicted of repeatedly having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to 12 years in prison.

Republican businessman Jon Grunseth withdrew his candidacy for Minnesota governor after allegations surfaced that he went swimming in the nude with four underage girls, including his daughter.

Republican campaign worker, police officer and self-proclaimed reverend Steve Aiken was convicted of having sex with two underage girls.

Republican director of the "Young Republican Federation" Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years in prison.

Republican president of the New York City Housing Development Corp. Russell Harding pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer.

Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr. was found guilty of raping a 15-year old girl. Dasen, 62, who is married with grown children and several grandchildren, has allegedly told police that over the past decade he paid more than $1 million to have sex with a large number of young women.

Republican Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the rape of children in Iraqi prisons in order to humiliate their parents into providing information about the anti-American insurgency. See excerpt of one prisoner's report here and his full report here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The people there are probably representative of the conservative/liberal ratio of the general public.

Before you think that conservatives have the higher moral ground:
Republican Sex Offenders

Green Bay GOP Party Chair indicted on child sex crimes | Uppity Wisconsin

Republican values create child molesters

What you fail to acknowledge is that the difference between libs and conservatives is libs celebrate their perverts.

Are you going to answer my question or not? Can you can't focus long enough to stay on the point? The question was, "How many conservatives do you suppose take part in the Folsom Street Fair and how much more in your face does it get than to have group sex in public?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

What you fail to acknowledge is that the difference between libs and conservatives is libs celebrate their perverts.

Are you going to answer my question or not? Can you can't focus long enough to stay on the point? The question was, "How many conservatives do you suppose take part in the Folsom Street Fair and how much more in your face does it get than to have group sex in public?"

I answered your question. Are you slow today? :)

Can you show me how "libs celebrate their perverts"?