Time Magazine (12/8/08, p 36) has a featured article entitled, “Can She Save Our Schools,” about Michelle Rhee, Chancellor of the District of Public School System.

I find Time to be a credible source and was shocked by the statistics in the article, all of which pertain only to developed nations:

The US spends more per pupil on elementary and HS education than “most,” BUT US children are behind “most” children in math and science abilities.

Thirteen percent of HS freshmen drop out and do not graduate (from HS); obviously, 77% do.

When compared to Canadian students, US students have scientific scores which are 45% lower.

In Washington, DC only 36% of students are considered (following testing) proficient in math, 39% in science.

For the first time in history this generation's children are LESS likely than their parents to finish HS and, in general, will have less education than their parents.

Ms. Rhee finds the problem to be ineffective teachers. In general, students in rural areas have better scores. Factors for the low urban scores are disinterested or absent parents, poverty (children in one parent households or unmarried households in general are raised with less income) and hunger (which is part of the poverty factor).

I find these statistics shocking and wonder if the statistics will only get worse.

Sure absent parents are a problem, but as long as our public education system is under a liberal death grip it will only get worse. That is unless they decide to stop doing the same failed things over and over hoping for a different outcome. What did they expect for intentionally dumbing down the education system, increased scores?

“Reforms” such as Outcome Based Education, “cooperative learning,” “learning outcomes” with no objective standards, “affective” rather than academic goals, and other politically correct nonsense are abject failures. But thankfully we have a new president that runs in the same circle as that ‘educator’ Bill Ayers, who wants teachers to be “capable of hope and struggle, outrage and action, a teacher teaching for social justice and liberation.” That’ll fix things.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

but as long as our public education system is under a liberal death grip it will only get worse.

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Lol!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

lol!

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I'm always happy to amuse you, NK. Just for a change of pace though, prove me wrong, show us some substance, offer an argument.

Is there any evidence to support the notion that countries with a more conservative bias than the US typically outperform American students, while more liberal countries tend to underperform? I should think decidedly not. Or: Do students in more conservative states like Alabama and Arkansas typically outperform students in more liberal states like Massachusetts and New York? The answer seems pretty clear to me.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I'm always happy to amuse you, NK. Just for a change of pace though, prove me wrong, show us some substance, offer an argument.

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From the OP:

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When compared to Canadian students, US students have scientific scores which are 45% lower.

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And we all how conservative we have been for the last 20 years. :)

Having grown up in a state that ended up in the top 10 for education pretty much every year I've ever looked, and then working in a university in a state that was in the LAST 5 pretty much every year, I can give an idea on what it is:

It's how we distribute pay to teachers and administrators.

Schools that have a high percentage of students passing certain standardized tests (and please note--some states do NOT use nationally standardized tests) are the schools that get raises, get money to spend on upgrading the school, and essentially get more "perks".

Schools that do not score as high often have layoffs and restructuring every few years to try to get them to do "better", but the constant change of teachers, staff, and programming results in more confusion, and in no one wanting to work at those schools.

Then the "No Child Left Behind" thing screwed EVERYTHING up. That program needs to be deleted. Self esteem isn't something that teachers should be teaching--it's what parents should be teaching. Ask some school in another first-world country whether they CARE whether a child's feelings were hurt when they got an F instead of an OK on their test. Their feelings SHOULD be hurt!

Get rid of paying according to students passing a test that you can teach them.

Get rid of "no child left behind"

Get rid of teachers having to teach more than education. Self esteem, respect, proper grooming, all of that sort of thing---that should be taught by PARENTS.

Start holding PARENTS responsible for their kids not doing well in school, instead of the teachers. Stop giving Welfare to drop-outs---a high school diploma or GED should be required to get Welfare, don't you think? Hold kids back that can't read, and haven't learned anything. FAIL students that don't make the effort to learn.

The MAIN problem is that people look on education in the US as a RIGHT and not a PRIVILEGE.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

From the OP:
And we all how conservative we have been for the last 20 years. :)

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Since the post was about education in the US I kept my comments about the liberal death grip on education in the US. My challenge to you still stands, you've shown nothing other than two different systems had two different outcomes.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Having grown up in a state that ended up in the top 10 for education pretty much every year I've ever looked, and then working in a university in a state that was in the LAST 5 pretty much every year, I can give an idea on what it is:

It's how we distribute pay to teachers and administrators.

Schools that have a high percentage of students passing certain standardized tests (and please note--some states do NOT use nationally standardized tests) are the schools that get raises, get money to spend on upgrading the school, and essentially get more "perks".

Schools that do not score as high often have layoffs and restructuring every few years to try to get them to do "better", but the constant change of teachers, staff, and programming results in more confusion, and in no one wanting to work at those schools.

Then the "No Child Left Behind" thing screwed EVERYTHING up. That program needs to be deleted. Self esteem isn't something that teachers should be teaching--it's what parents should be teaching. Ask some school in another first-world country whether or not they CARE whether a child's feelings were hurt when they got an F instead of an OK on their test. Their feelings SHOULD be hurt!

Get rid of paying according to students passing a test that you can teach them.

Get rid of "no child left behind"

Get rid of teachers having to teach more than education. Self esteem, respect, proper grooming, all of that sort of thing---that should be taught by PARENTS.

Start holding PARENTS responsible for their kids not doing well in school, instead of the teachers. Stop giving Welfare to drop-outs---a high school diploma or GED should be required to get Welfare, don't you think? Hold kids back that can't read, and haven't learned anything. FAIL students that don't make the effort to learn.

The MAIN problem is that people look on education in the US as a RIGHT and not a PRIVILEGE.

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Have you read the article? Half of DC apparently thinks she's a maverick and the other half think she's a Saint. I don't know enough to come down on either side but I know you do. I'd be interested in what you think (if you get a chance to read it).

Haven't read the article yet (I'm at work, and keep getting caught here), but I've got Time's website pulled up so that I can take a look when I get a chance.

The whole thing just frustrates me (as is obvious by my post)

Okay, read the article.

She ROCKS! It's about time someone started holding people accountable for education--and while it's NOT always the teachers, there's a good reason why some people should not teach.

I've also got several friends who got their teaching certifications/licenses---and who quit after 2 years because they saw people who were less effective and who cared less about education getting rewarded because they knew the right people to suck up to, and because they knew how to win popularity contests with the students. If you know you're going to get passed over or reprimanded for holding your students to a high standard, the bureaucracy of the entire thing gets to you at some point.

I wanted to teach at one point---until I realized that I would spend more time sucking up and jumping through hoops than I would actually teaching---and that I would be prevented from actually teaching things that might interfere with students' self-esteem or that might be "too challenging" for them.

Best teacher I ever had was Mr. Lee, in 9th grade. HATED him while I was in his class. His homework made me cry. And I learned more from him than I did from any other teacher I ever had---ever. I wish I could go back and thank him. But he certainly wouldn't have won any popularity contests---but he made sure you LEARNED in his class. More teachers should be like that.

I linked to an excellent article by Atlantic Magazine about Rhee here

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...ve-283929.html

And in this posting

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/politi...-235922-2.html

I'm thrilled she is beginning to get the recogition for her reform efforts she deserves.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

She ROCKS!! It's about time someone started holding people accountable for education--and while it's NOT always the teachers, there's a good reason why some people should not teach.

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Thanks - I value your opinion on this.

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there's a good reason why some people should not teach

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And believe it or not there are very qualified people who would love to teach and can't break into the profession .

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Sure absent parents are a problem, but as long as our public education system is under a liberal death grip it will only get worse. That is unless they decide to stop doing the same failed things over and over hoping for a different outcome. What did they expect for intentionally dumbing down the education system, increased scores?

“Reforms” such as Outcome Based Education, “cooperative learning,” “learning outcomes” with no objective standards, “affective” rather than academic goals, and other politically correct nonsense are abject failures. But thankfully we have a new president that runs in the same circle as that ‘educator’ Bill Ayers, who wants teachers to be “capable of hope and struggle, outrage and action, a teacher teaching for social justice and liberation.” That’ll fix things.

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I wonder what a conservative death grip would look like? :D

Agreed, Tomder.

The biggest thing I see happening too often, though, are the people that train for something completely different--they get an English degree, or a history degree, say--and can't get the job they REALLY want (like being a historical verifier of costumes for Hollywood, or some such) and so fall back on teaching. I've seen it happen with a ton of people in as many professions. They can't get a job in the field, so fall back on teaching others what they know. It's sad, really, because for so many people, teaching is a calling, and to watch people with higher degrees (their PhD to your Masters, perhaps) get the position just because of their degree and NOT because they are "qualified" with the right temperament or drive or whatever---that's frustration. Teaching should NOT be a fallback position.

Bah... I know I'm not expressing myself well right now. I truly believe there are so many improvements to education that need to happen, and the red tape everywhere drives me nuts.

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Originally Posted by TexasParent

I wonder what a conservative death grip would look like? :D

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It would be just as ugly only different :D

Yeah it has been that way for years. I think it was India and China are way ahead of us in Math and science.
Kids are not taught a lot of what we were taught anymore.
They are being taught social issues mostly from what I hear.
Even our private schooled kids exceed the public school teachings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/arts/02stud.html


Turn off the TV, computer !


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Irish Examiner - 2008/04/19: Fewer TVs at home key to academic success

Students need to read more and have more meaningful interactions with their parents.

I think there are other factors, such as
- 2 parent vs single parent household
- sexual activity [ obviously being pregnant is not conducive to studying ]
- drug and alcohol use
- parental emphasison or lack of emphasis on education

All these are Conservative issues.

I think the liberal agenda is more permissive toward drug use, sexual activity, and de-emphasizes the traditional nuclear family.
It seems the educational emphasis is on tolerance, global warming, self esteem rather than on achievement based on merit, or the basics like reading writing and math.




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God bless all you teachers out there!









g&p

Synnen

In a specific case (and I don't think this is the exception) ; someone who worked as a scientist for years and was very successful in the field ,got a passion to teach.She went back to school ;got a Masters in Education ,and can't get consistent work because of mandatory pay rates for teachers with higher education. What happens is that this person if lucky teaches for a couple of years and gets dumped before tenure kicks in... More often than not however ;when new hires are considered the school districts, for budgetary reasons ,opts for the teacher right out of college over a trained scientist .

Which is another truly sad thing--and a reason I agree that tenure needs to go out the window.

Especially in today's economy, people are applying for jobs that they're "overqualified" for all the time. I personally don't have a degree (never finished for monetary reasons), and I STILL was on unemployment for 4 months last year---and count myself lucky that it was only that long!

Teachers as a general rule are underpaid--that teacher right out of college, with their degree, makes less than your average security guard or a good administrative assistant. They start at the very low pay and accept it because of the fact that they just have to make it a couple years and they'll have tenure, and then can't be fired, and will at least have job security. Boy, I wish my job worked like that! Guess it takes a union to get that sort of thing.

As far as the liberal/conservative thing goes---I used to consider myself a liberal until I started being in the top tax bracket because I have no kids and no house. When I started having to pay more than people with kids for things like our schools, I started getting pretty upset that I was paying for stuff that their parents should be providing. Self-esteem is learned at home. Morals are learned at home. Respect is learned at home.

Honest to god, I'm starting to think taking Welfare away from anyone with no high school diploma would be the best place to start. If kids KNEW that they had NOTHING to fall back on if their job selling drugs or working at McDonald's fell through, then maybe they'd stop walking out of classes, ignoring teachers, dropping out of school, etc. If there was RESPECT for education, then maybe they'd have more respect for themselves and what they've learned.

I get more fired up about their education than most kids do--or more fired up than some of the parents of these kids! It makes me angry and sad that no one seems to care what happens to the kids that don't care when they drop out or graduate--they don't go on to college, they tend to live at the poverty level, perpetuating the cycle ad infinitum.

I honestly don't know what we really need to do. But Rhee has taken some really good steps, and I wish her luck!

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Originally Posted by TexasParent

I wonder what a conservative death grip would look like? :D

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Hello Tex:

I'll bet it's a school where children are taught that we are a Christian nation, that going along is the patriotic thing to do, that the earth is only 6,000 years old, that scientists fiddle around with fruit flies while REAL Americans get their hands dirty. It's a school where sex education isn't taught, and if a student winds up pregnant, too bad for them.

I don't think a school like that will make us competitive with ANYBODY.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Tex:

I'll bet it's a school where children are taught that we are a Christian nation, that going along is the patriotic thing to do, that the earth is only 6,000 years old, that scientists fiddle around with fruit flies while REAL Americans get their hands dirty. It's a school where sex education isn't taught, and if a student winds up pregnant, too bad for them.

I don't think a school like that will make us competitive with ANYBODY.

excon

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Even I'm looking for somewhere in the middle as far as PUBLIC education goes, but come on ex, "conservative" does not equal brain-dead neanderthal. And when it comes to CHRISTIAN education people either conveniently forget or just don't know the history of education in this country.

It's been said that 106 of the first 108 colleges in this country were Christian institutions. One of the original rules of Harvard was "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life, (John 17:3), and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning."

Yale was started by Congregational ministers "for the liberal and religious education of suitable youth…to propagate in this wilderness, the blessed reformed Protestant religion…"

Princeton was started by Presbyterians with the Rev. Jonathan inson its first president.

William and Mary's purpose was "that the Church of Virginia may be furnished with a seminary of ministers of the gospel, and that the youth may be piously educated in good letters and manners, and that the Christian religion may be propagated among the Western Indians to the glory of Almighty God."

Brown was started by Baptists, Rutgers by the Dutch Reformed Church. Would you discount the education provided at Notre Dame, Villanova, Duquesne, Fordham or Loyola (Catholic)? How about Pepperdine (Church of Christ), SMU, Duke, Emory, Syracuse (Methodist/Quaker), TCU (Christian Church) or perhaps Baylor (Baptist)?

Just in time for this discussion, this is the sort of nonsense I'm talking about, Schools get rid of F's.

Turn off the cell phone texting.
Turn off the cell phone calls.
Turn off the video games.
For starters.

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Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

Turn off the cell phone texting.
Turn off the cell phone calls.
Turn off the video games.
For starters.

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Turn off the TV at home.

Make family dinners a priority.

Make reading important.

Learn to live without cable.

Make movies something special, instead of something to do when you're bored. The book is usually better than the movie anyway.

Go outside--as a FAMILY.

See... the thing is, PARENTS have to stop relying on electronics too. I can't believe how many kids I see that are babysat by TV and movies. DVD players in cars? Are you KIDDING me? That can't be really teaching kids patience, attention span, imagination, or anything else worthwhile. Plus--most of the parents I know get sucked into the TV too, and their kids see that and yet people wonder why kids don't go outside and play. When's the last time their PARENTS went outside to play?

It starts at home, with all of that.

As a retired teacher myself and having a family of teachers(5) who work with low income schools that are culturally diverse I can tell you that teachers are committed.

I am so tired of teachers getting a bad rap.

Administrators are committed as well, but they have to work within the guidelines the state sets up as well

We can't keep kids engaged in learning because the learning standards set up by the government (who know squat about education)are archaic.

As an educational system it has not been changed since the 60's.

Lets get real here.. lets give these kids an education that is in keeping with the 21st century.

And yes.. parents have to be involved.. I say make it mandatory. If you want your child to go to this school you must be involved.show that you helped with homework.. something to force those lax parents into knowing that school is more that just a babysitting service.

We need to get real here with our overindulged uneducated kids and take the cells away and wake them up..
These are our future leaders... And they can' t do anything but text spell..

SAD

Surely with our technological advances education today shouldn't involve teachers to the same degree. Shouldn't it marry advanced teaching techniques through well produced videos, software programs, and hands on demonstrations? I know that engaging students who are now used to watching and learning from television in short bursts and are captured by the stimulation of video games, etc. have short attention spans and often tune out the teacher because the lesson isn't stimulating enough.

How do we bring together the role of teacher and use the best technological tools available to re-engage the students minds to soak up the necessary learning?

Isn't socialism where the government basically controls everything? If that is correct, then the problem with public education is socialism. I can remember when schools did a much better job than now. The local school boards actually had control over the local schools.

Then came federal aid to education. (FATE) Now, every policy has to come from some bureaucrat in Washington who doesn't have a clue what is going on in the local school.

As with everything else, when big government takes control of something, it turns to,---well, you know.

Give control back to local school boards and watch what happens.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Isn't socialism where the government basically controls everything?

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No, not by a long shot.