Ask Me Help Desk - 8 year old killer

8 year old killer

Hello:

An 8 year old boy just killed is dad and another guy in Arizona.

Should he be tried as an adult? Do you think a child of 8 can understand the ramifications of his actions?? If you do, why shouldn't children vote? Do you think the yes's and no's will break down along partisan lines?

If you think he should be tried as an adult, because murder is an "adult" crime, please tell me what a "juvenile" crime is. If you come up with any, should everybody charged with "juvenile" crimes be tried in juvenile court? How would you determine what crime is "adult", and what crime isn't?

I really want to know.

excon

I do not think he should be tried as an adult. If he is - does he go to the adult prison? I can't even imagine that. He definitely needs/deserves a harsh punishment - but not to be tried as an adult. He's 8!
I don't think he could understand fully what he has done. Take a look at society and what is available to children. There are video games out there that are exteremely violent, but each time you kill someone in the game - they are alive and well the next time you play.

I think the juvenile system shouldn't be set up for "juvenile crimes" but for those that are juveniles. Children.
Now, if you have a 16 year old doing what this boy did - I may feel differently, because I think a 16 year old is able to understand exactly what he did.

You have to wonder - if this boy spends the next 10 or so years in a juvenile prison - what is he going to come out as? Is he lost forever? Is he going to end up in the adult system eventually?

No, of course not. I can hardly believe the authorities there are trying, I mean what idiot would want to try an 8-year-old as an adult? Do you really think the vote might come down on partisan lines?

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I mean what idiot would want to try an 8-year-old as an adult? Do you really think the vote might come down on partisan lines?

Hello Steve:

Uhhh, the idiots they HAVE in Arizona, like Sheriff Arpio, who makes his inmates wear pink underwear and eat green baloney, while they're sweating their butts off in their tents, OUTSIDE, in the 120 degree Sonora Desert. People like that.

Partisan lines?? Sure. Who, but a bleeding heart would try to save a killer?? Seeee? I knew you was a closet liberal.

excon

Exy,

LOL speech a closet liberal.. lol lol lol. That is FUNNY!

I think it is horrible to even THINK of charging the 8 year old boy as an adult. My heart goes out to this boy and his family. I HAVE boys.. I adore boys... this whole thing makes me ill. Something went very wrong here... but trying the CHILD as an adult is so inappropriate. He needs help. Not jail. Not even juvenile prison. He is a so little.. he will be lost forever. The whole thing breaks by heart... (yes, I have one) :)

A closet liberal, LOL. Hardly, but I do have at least a shred of common sense and decency. I think it's more you guys don't want to give us credit for having any.

I'd say there is a 90% chance the boy was abused. Either that or a fuse blew .

Hello again, closeted libs:

So, tell me then. If an 8 year old is too young, at WHAT age should a child be charged as an adult? DOES it have to do with his AGE, or his CRIME?

Come on. You can engage me. I'm friendly.

excon

PS> And, I haven't heard you chime in with an opinion, tom, except to state the obvious.

Hello again:

Ok, I won't keep you in suspense. We used to put people under 18 into the juvenile system, because we believed that children didn't have the capacity to understand the ramifications of their acts. It had nothing to do with the crime. It had everything to do with their age. It worked fine.

Then, sometime around the early 70's, when CRIME became an issue, and SOFT on crime became an anathema, we began charging children as adults... In my view, it was done strictly for political purposes.

It's time we ALL became the bleeding heart liberals that we once were.

excon

I knew where you were going with this line of questions.

No I don't think a 17 year old gangbanger should be tried in juvenile court.
No ;I don't think an 8 year old is capable of making adult decisions.

No ,I don't think that because a gangbanger can make adult decisions regarding the taking of a life and should be held accountable as an adult for murder ,that he is by extension adult in other aspects of his life .

As far as an exact year of deliniation ,I'm willing to go with what society has established

I think it has more to do with circumstances. I bet you know what I mean.

Hello again, Steve:

I think I do, but why don't you want to spell it out? I suspect you mean that if the crime was particularly brutal, THEN you could really slam the kid... What if it turns out that THIS 8 year old was particularly brutal in THIS killing.

You also refused to state an age limit. Or you'd rather make those judgments on a case by case basis... Come on, Steve. You can tell me.

excon

I am sitting here thinking of my 7 year old boy. I can't imagine holding him accountable for something like this in an adult prison...
I think of my 11 year old daughter, I can see she has a mind and has the wrong and right factor, I would ALMOST be able to see her closer to getting tried as an adult.
My oldest boy is 14 and holy crap yes, they know what the heck is going on. BUT that isn't to say he needs to be in a jail with older inmates, teaching him the ropes and learning things he just SHOULDN'T know at that age.
As far as your case by case, I say yes, all kids are different, there are terrible different reasons or no good reasons at all why kids do these sorts of things. A case by case basis sounds about right if you ask me. I know all of my kids have been at different levels at the same ages so a straight up law just doesn't make sense at this point.
I also agree that there should be separate institutions where these kids can be handled in a positive manner towards getting the help they need to come out of whatever it is they are in.
Liberal or whatever, none of us want to see a kid or a family go through this and they deserve the help they need. It saddens me to know of it at all to tell you the truth.

Nope... it's simple! According to child psychology studies... his brain is not fully developed by no means. Therefore he doesn't have the brain capacity to think like an adult.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/us/13child.html?em

Quote:

A Phoenix defense lawyer, Karyn Klausner, who is a former municipal judge, said that for the boy to be tried as an adult, the tests must show that he is competent to understand the charges against him, has a basic understanding of the court process and is able to assist in his defense. In addition, prosecutors must prove that he cannot be rehabilitated by the time he turns 18 and leaves the juvenile justice system.

NO, because of the above quoted conditions.

What does partisanship have to do with this?

It is tragic. In my opinion, I suspect the boy was being abused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, closeted libs:

So, tell me then. If an 8 year old is too young, at WHAT age should a child be charged as an adult? DOES it have to do with his AGE, or his CRIME?

Come on. You can engage me. I'm friendly.

excon

PS> And, I haven't heard you chime in with an opinion, tom, except to state the obvious.

I don't see it being as simple as age and crime. There are all shades of gray in between that should determine whether they should be tried as adult.

Hello spy:

I disagree. When you leave it to a prosecutor, he's running for governor, so he'd charge a 3 year old if he thought it could get him elected.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

I think I do, but why don't you want to spell it out? I suspect you mean that if the crime was particularly brutal, THEN you could really slam the kid.... What if it turns out that THIS 8 year old was particularly brutal in THIS killing.

You also refused to state an age limit. Or you'd rather make those judgments on a case by case basis... Come on, Steve. You can tell me.

excon

I guess I was wrong that you would know what I mean. Circumstances like the development of the child. No way, no how would an 8-year-old have the comprehension levels of an adult. I don't think you can put some magic age figure on it so I think you have to judge on a case by case basis, but certainly not 8-year-olds. Times have changed, ex, isn't that what you keep telling us about drugs and gay marriage? I think we probably have a lot more youth running around with guns, gang banging, forced to be the adult in the family, etc. now than 25 years ago, don't you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello spy:

I disagree. When you leave it to a prosecutor, he's running for governor, so he'd charge a 3 year old if he thought it could get him elected.

excon

I was talking as if the prosecuter was a sensible person.
Maybe he's a robot...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

I'd say there is a 90% chance the boy was abused.

That was my first thought too.
I don't think an 8 year old should be tried as an adult.

I'm an "out" liberal. :)

Good question Exy,

No, I don't think an 8 year old child should be tried as an adult.

I have a 10 year old son. Yes he knows right from wrong, but because he's 10 he doesn't always follow what he knows is right. Would he kill hubby and me, no, because he comes from a stable home, he's loved, he's not abused, he's mentally healthy.

There are people that are disturbed no matter how they are raised. Look at Jeffrey Dahmer, his upbringing was very normal but he turned out to be a serial killer. After he was arrested his father thought back to his childhood and yes, there were signs that he was disturbed. 20/20 hindsight is a b#tch, isn't it?

I don't know the case that you are talking about, but yes, I'm sure that things in that home weren't good and the little boy snapped, or maybe we do have another Jeffrey Dahmer on our hands.

So then, how do we determine who gets tried as an adult? Personally, if you aren't old enough to vote, then I don't think you're old enough to be tried as an adult. No gray area there. Under 18 you're a minor, over 18 you're an adult. That's my opinion.

If a child of 8 commits a murder then obviously that child needs psychological help more than he needs to be behind bars. I would hope that they would make sure that this boy gets the help he needs.

Should he be punished? Yes. But what punishment is suitable for an 8 year old child that kills? I don't have the answer to that.

I was watching CNN last night and they were talking about this story. They questioned the 8 year old without a parent (obviously the dad is out of the question) or lawyer present and no one read him his Miranda rights. I always thought and I could be wrong but by the police not reading him his rights and questioning a minor with out a parent or lawyer there make their case fall apart?

Hello spit:

I think you're right. Who says the Arizona cops are smarter than the 8 year old? This, of course, is the state that boasts the toughest sheriff in the world, where he makes his inmates wear pink underwear and feeds them green baloney.

excon

I think I saw that guy on TV don't all of the inmates sleep in a big tent outside?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Good question Exy,

So then, how do we determine who gets tried as an adult? Personally, if you aren't old enough to vote, then I don't think you're old enough to be tried as an adult. No gray area there. Under 18 you're a minor, over 18 you're an adult. That's my opinion.

.

Alty,

I completely agree with you. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal but I think this is the best way to deal with KIDS that commit crimes. I also don't believe this kid needs jail of any kind. He is 8, a mere babe, he has no father and the boy is troubled and needs help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spitvenom

I think I saw that guy on TV don't all of the inmates sleep in a big tent outside?

Hello spit:

Yup, in the 120 degree Arizona desert... Been there - done that.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal but....

Hello again, T:

You're not?? Could have fooled me. Anybody who thinks a killer needs help instead of the chair has Got to be a bleeding heart.

Pretty soon you're going to be throwing over all the other conservative crap stuck in the nooks and cranny's of your brain.

excon

The child is 8 years old. That says it all. He's not even old enough to cross the street by himself, let alone be tried as an adult. Heck, he's not even a teen, not even close.

Personally, all I want to do is take that kid into my home, give him the love he obviously needs, give him stability, kindness, and everything else he's missed out on in his short 8 years on this earth.

He does need help, obviously, but jail? Do we want to turn this kid into a criminal for life? Put an 8 year old in jail and you reap what you sow. There's still time to save this kid.

This is so sad, for everyone involved.

Ex,

DREAM ON DUDE! LOL LOL

Hey I don't think just ANY killer needs help and not jail.. but those under 18 are still kids. Their brains aren't fully formed either. I have a heart for kids.. what can I say?? But I am TOUGH as nails when it comes to the adults... scary tough. LOL

Classy, you're a big softie, I know you are. ;)

Altenweg, I was intrigued by your comment about Jeffrey Dahmer, so I went and read a little about him. I think his childhood may have been normal, sadly so, but not healthy. He sounds like he had an abusive father and he was cutting up animals as a child...

I could be wrong, but I think anyone who can pass as normal--get jobs, join the military--and does stuff like this has almost certainly not had a healthy childhood. I remember reading a European study along time ago that said that while a tendency to non violent criminality appeared to have a genetic component, violent crime did not. That could be wrong, too. But I do think upbringing--especially abusive parents--have a huge effect on personality and behavior.

The big question is whether kids who have been subjected to this can be rescued and when, and also why some kids subjected to abuse grow up to be decent people. What makes some people so resilient to trauma? If we could bottle that, we'd be rich.

I think the thing that makes me wonder when I was watching the interview on CNN they asked the 8 year old why he shot the dad twice. The 8 year old said he shot his dad twice because the first shot didn't kill him and he (the dad) was suffering. How does an 8 year old know that?

My kids understood suffering at that age and younger. They still try not to kill or hurt anything. I am not sure the older one would even kill an ant...

I actual think that's a hopeful sign for the boy. He's probably not a psychopath with no empathy.

Actually, Asking, Jeffrey Dahmer's father was not abusive, just largely absent from his sons life, as was his birth mother. He was molested as a child, by a neighbor. His father travelled a lot, and his mother moved away with her other son, leaving Jeffrey with his dad. Most psychologists think that Jeffrey's problems stem from being alone so much in his life. He had abandonment issues, which is why he kept the bodies of his victims for a long time after killing them. He even ate his victims because he said it made him feel closer to them.

I actually read the book written by Lionel Dahmer "A father's story" which is Jeffrey's fathers account of his life. Of coure, it's from Lionel's point of view, and I doubt he'd admit abusing his son, but from what I read, he loved his child and was as good a father as he knew how to be, which sadly wasn't good enough.

Here's a quote from Lionel (Jeff's dad)

"I could not imagine how he had become such a ruined soul. For the first time I no longer believed that my efforts and resources alone would be enough to save my son. There was something missing in Jeff. We call it a 'conscience.' That had either died or had never been alive in the first place."

I don't think that this 8 year old in the news is a psychopath, I think he's just a sad, abused, scared little boy. I could be wrong, but really, what needs to happen to make an 8 year old kill? Something must have been extremely wrong in that house.

I really hope he gets the help he so desperately needs, and I know that help would not be available in prison.

8 year old are smarter than you think. Last year a 9 year old stab her godsister in the chest because she got mad at her, I forget why she was mad at her, but the girl that got stab died instantly and the 9 year old wasn't even charged because she was too young.

Hello again, my friends (yes I did learn that from John McCain):

So, you don't think an 8 year old should be tried as an adult... Cool. Then how about taking a shot at the second part of my question.

Does trying a child as an adult have to do with his AGE or his CRIME??

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Actually, Asking, Jeffrey Dahmer's father was not abusive, just largely absent from his sons life, as was his birth mother. He was molested as a child, by a neighbor. His father travelled alot, and his mother moved away with her other son, leaving Jeffrey with his dad. Most psychologists think that Jeffrey's problems stem from being alone so much in his life. He had abandonment issues, which is why he kept the bodies of his victims for a long time after killing them. He even ate his victims because he said it made him feel closer to them.

I actually read the book written by Lionel Dahmer "A father's story" which is Jeffrey's fathers account of his life. Of coure, it's from Lionel's point of view, and I doubt he'd admit abusing his son, but from what I read, he loved his child and was as good a father as he knew how to be, which sadly wasn't good enough.

...
I don't think that this 8 year old in the news is a psychopath, I think he's just a sad, abused, scared little boy. I could be wrong, but really, what needs to happen to make an 8 year old kill? Something must have been extremely wrong in that house.

Perhaps I took too much from the wikiepedia entry, which said his father "forced" him into the military. I thought that spoke volumes about Dahmer's boundaries (or lack of them) and his father too. But I will defer to your superior knowledge on this topic. In any case, it doesn't sound like a very happy or healthy childhood.

I agree with you completely about the current 8 year old.

Ex, I think it has to do with the crime. If the 8 year old stole soda and candy from a store we wouldn't even know about it or be talking about this. But since it is murder well here we are.

Exy,

For me it's his age. Yes, murder is a horrific crime, and no one should be allowed to get away with it. But, does an 8 year old child have the mental capacity to understand that his actions are wrong? Does an 8 year old child think and act like an adult?

My son is 10, and yes, he's smart, but he's still a child, he doesn't have the intelligence or brain capacity to act responsibly.

For example, as an adult I know that touching a lit candle isn't a good idea, it's hot, you'll burn yourself. Of course I taught my children that, they know that fire is hot, they know they shouldn't touch. Yesterday my son touched the candle and burned his finger. I asked him why he did it. His response "I don't know, I just thought I'd try it to see if it was really hot".

You can tell a child what's right and what's wrong, that doesn't mean that they truly understand.

He should be tried as a child, because that's what he is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Does trying a child as an adult have to do with his AGE or his CRIME?????

To me, it's all age related.

I've never been clear why we have all these rules about not trying children as adults, and then make exceptions because they did something creepy.

If you want to punish 17 years olds like 30 year olds, then change the law and make them "adults." You can always make an exception in the direction of leniency if there are mitigating circumstances.

Eight is the age when children first begin to realize they are separate persons, not just an extension of their family, parents. It can be a tumultuous year as kids this age try to establish boundaries. But they are still deeply childish, not like a 12 year old, who can be quite adult if raised well.

But, now I'm curious. Why are you asking these questions?