Hello conservative right wingers:
Why do you deny the happiness, that you yourself enjoy, from your fellow citizens? Isn't doing that UN Christianlike?? I think it IS!!
You are bad and wrong for doing that. Tell my why you're not.
excon
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Hello conservative right wingers:
Why do you deny the happiness, that you yourself enjoy, from your fellow citizens? Isn't doing that UN Christianlike?? I think it IS!!
You are bad and wrong for doing that. Tell my why you're not.
excon
Because marriage was made for MAN AND WOMAN. Period. Most people are hetero, and a good # of them have kids. It's known that kids do better with a mom and dad in their lives. Before birth control and nursing homes/hospitals, families had to stick together. And people still get married now because of desire to have kids and have a life with a person. Gays should stop trying to muscle in on a straight tradition. It makes "real" marriage look like a joke. What would be next, marrying a horse?
Hello pass:
You're just wrong... Marriage wan't MADE. There isn't any "real" marriage, any more than there is a "real" Virginia. It ISN'T known at all that children do better with a mom and a dad. You're just making that up.
I'd like to argue with somebody who has FACTS on their side - not just more right wing Christian mumbo jumbo. Please.
excon
If marriage wasn't "made" then how does it exist, and exist with rules? Virginia is real as far as we're concerned (maybe not in the grand scheme of things) and it has it's own laws.
BTW, this question is mostly a matter of opinion, so I don't know why you are so angry about me stating my opinion along with some facts. Also, you addressed this question to Christians, or right-wingers... so duh, what do you expect?
Why should this not apply to gays? Why should they not be allowed to "get married now because of desire to have kids and have a life with a person."?Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeby
Seriously, the outcome of prop 8 sickens me. For all the acceptance the american people have shown by voting for obama, the amount of sickening discrimination and manipulation shown in the campaign to pass prop 8 is truly shocking.
Hello again, pass:
I expect an argument based on facts - not Christian dogma. And, you ain't got facts.
excon
PS> Ok, I'll play with you a little while. Marriage is a religions institution. I don't think it was "made". I think it just was. If marriage REMAINED a religious institution, I wouldn't have ANY problem with it...
However, in addition to it being religious in nature, it ALSO has a LEGAL aspect. People who are married are granted specific legal rights BECAUSE they're married. Therefore, it's only fair, and CHRISTIAN like to make sure your brother gets to enjoy the very same rights YOU enjoy...
But no... Because gays are going to hell, so they don't deserve ANYTHING... Come on, pass. You can tell us how you REALLY feel.
First off "passmeby"... you offered no facts.
Secondly, your opinion that it is "known" that children do better with a mom and dad in their life is wrong.
Children do better with two parents... period. That can consist of a male and female, male and male, or female and female.
There are numerous studies that prove, giving real facts, that children brought up in a homosexual family exibit the same positive upbringings that a child brought up in a heterosexual family does. Actually, most children in a homosexual parent household outshine other children in areas of socialibility, and creativeness.
And, what, you are trying to compare a woman marrying a women or a male marrying a male... like marrying an animal?? Hardly a vaild comparison and actually hinders your answer from being consider factual or mature.
~best wishes from a heterosexual female who is married to a heterosexual male... and who truly understands that there cannot be limits on love.
I've said many times that the states should get out of marriage all together. All of the Christians want marriage to be a religious issue then it should be not be a part of state law then.
I have no problem with the state renaming my marriage to domestic partnership and then if I want the religious title of marriage I have to find a private institution willing to do it.
I feel that "marriage" is not nearly the religious institution it used to be. Many marriages are desolving because of problems ranging from abuse to adultry to who knows what. Many people get married only for the legal aspects, i.e. more tax deductions.
Yes, many people do still enter into the religious institution of marriage, and many survive and grow through it.
No matter what the reasoning of someone wanting to get married, should this not be allowed for all people, no matter their sexual preference?! It's very sad to know that so many americans are still so blinded by predjudices, that they vote to deny marriage to people who, choose a slightly different lifestyle. I personally think it's very sick and very wrong to deny people that which they deserve. Homosexuals love just as strongly as hetrosexuals, and should be given the right to marriage if that is what they choose to do.
I have answered this many times. My biggest question at this point is :why do people of California overwhelmingly vote in these Gavin Newsome types while at the same time voting for conservative intitiatives ?
Orwellians do like to change the meanings of words .But marriage is a religious institution. The term "marriage " should be stricken from the "public "records and replaced by the term "unions" .We don't want the government making decisions about baptism ,communion,or other sacraments .The government should also get out of the marriage business. On that we agree.
Where the states are involved in the contractual aspects of the relationship( joint ownership, medical decision-making capacity,child rearing ), I agree that all equal rights should apply. That would be easily solved by calling all such contracts on the state books as "unions "or "contracts " and leaving the term marriage to the authority of religious institutions.
The distinction nonetheless ,where states have both definitions, does not in my view violate your concerns about 14th Amendment rights since both "marriage " and "civil unions" where they are presently practiced afford equal rights to both.Before you come back at me with the "separate but equal " distinction of the 14th I will say that does NOT apply in this case. The reason Brown V. Board of Education was overturned was that the court believed the facilities were unable to ever be truly equal. In this case, civil unions are held to be an acceptable alternative where they have been granted .
But the bottom line is that there are apx 1000 Federal Benefits and apx an additional 400 State benefits that the contract of "marriage " qualifies .
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/og97016.pdf
Extending those rights equally to all contractual "unions " would more than satisfy all legal concerns ;it would also give the added benefit of qualifying cohabitation and other common law concerns.
Frankly, I don't think anyone should be allowed to be "married" until they have a "domestic partnership" that they go to a courthouse and get from the state.
Once you have a domestic partnership, you have all the LEGAL aspects of marriage. You are not, however, allowed to call your spouse "husband" or "wife" or call yourself "married". You have a spouse and are partnered.
If you can find a religion---ANY religion--that is willing to "marry" you, then great! You can get married in that church, and call yourself married, etc, etc, etc.
And guess what? Most pagan religions recognize homosexual marriages. I see a great uprise in people converting to MY religion because Christianity is too judgemental.
Oh--and those people against gay marriage because it's against their religion should ALSO be against divorce because THAT is against most religions. Show me where divorced people didn't end up as social outcasts, excommunicated, prior to the 1950s or so! So... those preaching "no gay marriage because it's against god" need to remember that the church vows for marriage state "Til Death Do Us Part"----which to me means you're going against god if you divorce.
So basically THAT argument means that all divorced people should be pro-homosexual marriage.
Hello tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
What I want to know, is why you don't want them to marry. I know you think it's the same... But, it ain't.
What does it TAKE from YOU, that gays can marry?? I asked a simple question at the top. I know WHY you Christians DON'T want to answer it...
Cause you can't!
excon
What you are asking for is a rejection of the morals and that won't happen here.
Hello again, tom:
At least you have to courage to say it outright. Wassa matter with your fellow righty's?
I think you're wrong. At least I hope you are.
excon
What's moral about preventing the happiness of your fellow man?
Hello Cappy:
Because gay people are an abomination. They're damned to hell and not worthy of equal rights, happiness, or ANY Christianlike attitudes. Besides, this IS a Christian country.
There, Christians. I answered for you.
excon
Reagardless of my opinion ;I have given an equitable solution for the secular state .
Hello again, tom:
I again, suggest that separate but equal, ISN'T equal, EVEN if differs in name only. Because if it truly WAS equal, you wouldn't have a problem with what it's called.
excon
I disagree for reasons I stated in my first response.
But still the main thrust of my response is that for all legal concerns, the state calling all cohabitational unions as "civil union"would satisfy your constitutional concerns.
To make it COMPLETELY equal would require that ONLY marriages made by the state be recognized as legal for any kind of legal/state benefit--like seeing your spouse in the hospital, or inheritance upon death, or legal decisions when they are incapacitated, or tax breaks.
All religious marriages would then be ONLY recognized by the church.
If you want recognition from both, then you have to get married in both.
Hello Syn:
That just makes TOO much sense...
But, the right isn't trying to make it equal. It's about MORALS - not equality. Good for tom for saying it outright.
excon
"There is nothing divine about morality; it is purely a human affair"
Albert Einstein, 1954
Exactly... except for legal purposes the word "marriage " would be scrubbed . Leave marriage as the religious institution it was intended as.Quote:
To make it COMPLETELY equal would require that ONLY marriages made by the state be recognized as legal for any kind of legal/state benefit--like seeing your spouse in the hospital, or inheritance upon death, or legal decisions when they are incapacitated, or tax breaks.
All religious marriages would then be ONLY recognized by the church.
If you want recognition from both, then you have to get married in both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Some Christian denominations marry Gay people willingly as their interpretation of the Bible is different from more fundamental Christian Churches. Do we not have freedom of religion?
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You're getting real close... but you still want a legal distinction...
What if we just called religious marriage - marriage - but call every union that has RIGHTS attached to it, governmentified?
excon
oh come on ex that is unfair. I love how you asked for our opinions and then answer it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Christians believe that the LORD instituted marriage and that it is between a man and a woman. He made adam and eve ( not adam and steve... bad joke) In the bible homosexuality is considered a sin... but so is lying, cheating, fornication etc. As a Christain woman, I do not think homosexuality is any worse than any other sin. There isn't a sin that man commits that isn't forgivable.. except of course rejection of Christ. So to say that we think all Gays are headed for hell is BOGUS.
Because I am a Christian I believe marriage should STAY between a man and a woman. That is NOT UN christian. What WOULD be un-Christian is to hate someone just because they are gay.
Hello T:Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
You know what?? I'll bet the gays would be OK if you hated them, but let them marry?
Denying them the rights that you yourself enjoy, is pretty un-Christianlike, in my view. But, I'm not a Christian, so I can only guess what IS Christianlike and what isn't. I hear about loving your neighbor as yourself. I hear about not doing something to somebody that you don't want done to yourselves...
I don't know. Maybe I'm not hearing you Christians correctly. Set me straight.
excon
I'd like to know where in the Bible God gave the definition of marriage, actually.
So we're back to this again? No surprise, I agree entirely with tom. I still have this nagging question though, how CAN gay "marriage" be "equal" to heterosexual "marriage?" It can't, plain and simple. We can bestow all of the same rights and privileges and the two can never be "equal" so why can't we all be happy with civil "unions" and keeping "marriage" the religious institution it has been? I know, you're going to tell me it can be equal, but how? I thought we were supposed to celebrate our differences anyway, so why can't folks be happy with the obvious differences between gay unions and heterosexual marriages if the same rights and privileges apply?
Ex,Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
HEY... homosexual activity is a sin according to the BIBLE... not according to me. I am so far from God's standard of right that it isn't even funny! But for me to vote for something that I know God has said no to IS WORNG. We should love our neighbor as ourselves and we should do unto to others... but all of that has to line up with what God has set as right and wrong. I can love my neighbor but if he asked me to drive the get away car when he robs a bank.. I got to say no.
The problem today is that people in general don't want God's standard. They don't WANT right and wrong and God FORBID you be polically incorrect and be a "CHRISTIAN" and stand for God's WORD. I can't count the times I have been called intolerant because I believe in right and wrong. I am NOT intolerant... I just believe God's word. I don't hate Gay's I don't hate people who have abortions... I don't hate anyone. I just couldn't VOTE for something that I know God said... don't do.
Synn-
Genesis 2:24 Therfore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh. That is the biblical definition of marriage.
Synnen, that's one of the earliest things found in the bible and affirmed later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. Gen 2:24
"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." Mark 10:6-9
I will assume that your authority on what constitutes marriage is from the Bible. Yet, there are some Christian Churches who interpret the Bible differently and allow the marriage of two people of the same sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Tell me, who amongst Christianity settles what is truth and what isn't? The majority? Now that would be a slippery slope.
Obviously each church is subject to their own authority . People are free to go to whatever denomination they are most comfortable in .
God's word is the final authority... not a Church and not the majority. If you look hard enough you can find a CHRUCH to stand for whatever you want it to. Doesn't make it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
Then why are you supporting the Government getting involved in telling those Churches who are OK with gay marriage that they can't marry gay couples? I thought right wingers didn't like Government involvement in people's lives?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Great answer, classy! So true.
Anyway, I have to say how I can't believe how nasty the OP has been through this topic. He asked for opinions, called on Christians to answer, and then slams everyone with a differing opinion.
I don 't think gays should be allowed to marry. Not even just from a Christian perspective, I just think it's unnatural. I also think the practice of gay marriage, if legal, would be greatly abused for financial gains. Being gay is a defect, obviously. All living things have one purpose-to reproduce. Just because the times we live in now, where a person can be a productive member of society without having kids, doesn't make being gay not a defect. Obviously, if you're attracted to the same sex, you can't reproduce, and therefore, in the natural world, you are useless.
And that is my opinion, and I think YOU are wrong, excon. What, did you fall in love with your cellie or something? Is this why you are asking?
If it is about morals and religion why am I allowed to get married? My wife and I are both flaming atheists.
In fact we purposely scrubbed the word god out of all of our marriage vows.
I guarantee that my marriage does more to frown on your religion then any couple that happens to be gay.
Or is that next on the agenda? First make sure marriage gets defined in the state as a religious contract. Then continue to narrow who can get married till only Christians of a certain type can get the benefits of marriage.
Did I say that ? No I did not . I made no opinion on churches that marry gay couples at all. What I did say was that marriage is a religious institution and that the state should not be involved in sanctioning them . I said the state instead should be certifiying unions of couples and calling it that.Quote:
Then why are you supporting the Government getting involved in telling those Churches who are OK with gay marriage that they can't marry gay couples?
Thank you for that definition.
I could get into the whole whose god's word is the final authority there are so many and where does that word come from and how do you verify that it is gods will. That's probably a topic for another thread though.
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