"In the annals of judicial imperialism, we have arrived at a strange new chapter. A California court ruled this month that parents cannot "home school" their children without government certification. No teaching credential, no teaching. Parents "do not have a constitutional right to home school their children," wrote California appellate Justice Walter Croskey....
"The case was initiated by the Los Angeles Department of Children and Family Services after a home-schooled child reportedly complained of physical abuse by his father. A lawyer assigned to two of the family's eight children invoked the truancy law to get the children enrolled in a public school and away from their parents. So a single case of parental abuse is being used to promote the registration of all parents who crack a book for their kids. If this strikes some readers as a tad East German, we know how you feel.

"That so many families turn to home schooling is a market solution to a market failure -- namely the dismal performance of the local education monopoly. According to the Home School Legal Defense Association, the majority of states have low to moderate levels of regulation for home schools, an environment that has allowed the option to flourish, especially in the South and Western U.S. Between 1999 and 2003, the rate of home-schooling increased by 29%." Certifying Parents - WSJ.com
I live in the State of Georgia; yes, Jimmy Carter's Georgia, which has just recently elected its first modern-day Republican governor, though he is a turn-coat Democrat. Believe it or not, Albert Einstein could not teach in a Georgia public school because he lacked certification. And in the Peoples' Republic of California, Dr. Einstein could not teach his own kids at home.
The California mess represents some of what is so wrong about the Democrats' view of the proper role of government, especially when it comes to taking care of the Party's constituency. Oh yes, how much the Dem/Fascists care about the little guy. Of course, this is the same Party that protects criminals (Miranda) and abortion on demand. Long may judicial activism reign. A Big Win for Judicial Supremacy, a Big Loss for Government Language Lawyers and Another Example of Real Change - HUMAN EVENTS

Maybe because this is what some parents are teaching:

The idea that the State "owns" the children is a pretty recent idea, and one that is repugnant to free men! Socialists want to control everyone, cradle to grave. There are a lot of us who just want government to butt out.

Your schools OWN your children? Who the hell would want to live there? Why is no one revolting against this??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Maybe because this is what some parents are teaching:

---

Oh my. My oh my oh my. That's really all I can say without getting off topic. Oh my.

To the OP:

At first I thought this was a different certification home school parents were supposed to get, not a 4-year teaching degree.

I could see requiring parents to pass a competency test, just as how in most states they have to follow a certain curriculum. But requiring a 4-year degree? It seems they are trying to curb religious teaching more than anything else, and I don't agree with that. You may not have a constitutional right to educate your child at home, but there's nothing in the constitution which demands public schooling either.

What would Einstein do? If he wanted to teach, he'd get certified.

ETA: The schools in my state don't own the kids, at least not that I'm aware of. You can move here, NK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Maybe because this is what some parents are teaching:

---

Om my gosh ! This parent is teaching that evolution is not a fact. Darwinian heresy!


Lets see, my tax dollars go to public schools, where my kid is one of 25 or more students per teacher. A teacher that also has to deal with general social problems, depending on school district.

The average home schooling parent still has to pay taxes that go to the local public school, and gets no tax benefit for spending money on home schooling.

In this day of single parent homes, cohabitaing unwed parents, two working parents [ often no other choice ], the government is going to make it more difficult to teach YOUR OWN child? A child that gets tremendously more parental time?

How is this a bad thing? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George_1950

Of course, this is the same Party that protects criminals (Miranda)

---

Hello George:

You had me going, until your REAL credentials showed up...

If THAT is what you'd be teaching at home, it's no wonder the state is intervening... Cause what you'd be teaching is WRONG, wrong, and even WRONGER than that.

Actually, it's the CONSTITUTION, in the form of the Fifth Amendment that protects the accused - not a political party. If you're going to invoke the Constitution, don't cherry pick...

Wait a minute. Didn't you accuse me of cherry picking?? You did.

excon

Hello excon: of course you know that Miranda is not in the constitution, it is the result of judicial activism, and not coincidentally most of that crowd was nominated and confirmed by a Democratic regime. Of course, it is never wrong for parents to teach their children their religious beliefs. I know you agree with me on both points because I'm not arguing the substance of either, but the procedure. Where would you put your trust? With your family or your government?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inthebox

How is this a bad thing?

---

Hello in:

It's a bad thing because a parent has a duty to prepare their children to handle life. Telling them fantasy is fact, doesn't do that.

I do agree with Jillian, however, you absolutely have the right to produce uneducated children.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George_1950

of course you know that Miranda is not in the constitution, it is the result of judicial activism.... Of course, it is never wrong for parents to teach their children their religious beliefs.

---

Hello again, George:

Miranda, per se, isn't in the Constitution. The Fifth Amendment is. All Miranda does is tell the accused what the Fifth Amendment says in case he doesn't already know.

Yes, I'm sure you call that protecting criminals. I don't.

As I said above, parents absolutely have the right to produce uneducated (but very religious) children.

excon

Hello again, excon
I want the police to be on an equal footing with those who enjoy breaking the law, not somehow "above" those whom they suspect of committing a crime. I would expect that if we were to study the lives of the justices that gave us Miranda, we would find nine snobbish men who never got their hands dirty.
It is that kind of elitism that has given us Miranda and an education monopoly that will not hire an Einstein because he is not "certified".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George_1950

I want the police to be on an equal footing with those who enjoy breaking the law, not somehow "above" those whom they suspect of committing a crime.

---

Hello again, George:

Me too, and that's what the Bill of Rights does...

So, tell me, George. If the criminals in OUR country are "above" the cops, how come OUR country has the largest prison population in the world??

excon

Getting back to the original content ; Calf. School systems were once ranked at or near the top of the nation . They have sunk towards the bottom

Smartest State 2006-2007

And internationally we are slipping compared to other nations .

U.S. falls in education rank compared to other countries | The Kapio

I can't for the life of me understand why a parent would want to opt out of such a fine system that guarantees a bang for your buck!!

I doubt the requirement for home schooling parents to have a teaching certificate will stand, if that's even what's being said. Even teachers at accredited private schools don't have to have a teaching certificate in California, so it seems unlikely that the state would ever require that of homeschooling parents.

I home schooled my son for one year, in California, and I thought the requirements were ludicrously minimal. Although I know basic math and algebra I was a terrible math teacher and my son was behind state standards by the end of the year. He was monitored by a local home schooling group who basically demanded to see evidence that we had done Something. The work of two or three hours was enough to satisfy them for every 3 weeks. I don't regret homeschooling him for that one year --for a long series of reasons that have nothing to do with his academic progress. But it would be very easy for a homeschooling parent to not teach their child much of anything or to teach things that are wrong. I think it is an issue worth examining and there is undoubtedly some compromise between a teaching certificate (which as far as I know takes 1 year, not 4) and no requirements at all.

Just Asking

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

getting back to the original content ; Calf. school systems were once ranked at or near the top of the nation . They have sunk towards the bottom

---

Our schools have sunk to near the bottom because anti-tax organizations have successfully deprived the schools of funding--whether they are kindergartens or universities. The anti-tax movement has gutted our school system over the last 30 years. People who don't believe in educating the next generation or any other public service ought not to complain about the result. Public education, libraries, and fire departments might seem like socialism to some people, but others consider them a mark of a civilized nation.

I have read that even fire and other emergency services are becoming privatized in some communities, so that the wealthy pay for "extra" services and everybody else gets by on whatever minimal service minimal tax payments will support--like 20 minute response times for fires and heart attacks. Why should the middle class and poor benefit from the hard work of the wealthy? Let 'em rot, eh?

Asking

That may be true but I also suspect it is the influx and catering to the needs of immigrants (legal and otherwise) into the system that is having an effect.In fact it impacts all the services you mentioned. There is a net drain as immigrant household received $14,145 in benefits and services and paid only $5,309 in taxes. Factor in illegals only and the numbers are more stark.

Cal. ranks #1 in teacher salaries so the unions must be happy campers. Per pupil Cal. is slightly below national averages . So it does not stand to reason that there is a correlation between funding and the quality of the education. With the numbers spent per student and per teacher Cal. should rank much better. If I had the time I would like to examine how much of the funding gets syphoned off at each level of the bureaucracy and actually reaches the class room. But the bottom line is don't look for the best bang for your buck when it is the government spending it.

I think you're making a good point, tom; funding isn't necessarily going to equal a better education or better quality. As you said, I'd like to see how much money is actually making it into the classrooms (not just in CA, but everywhere), because that is where funding does the most good.

I know there have been recent articles about the DC school system and the corruption and mis-use of funds (board members buying boats and houses and hookers), I'm sure if one looked, such things could be found in nearly every school system.

Well, we can only opine about what the cause is without better information. I know there aren't enough teachers, because my son had 43 kids in his advanced algebra class. I don't care how good the teacher is or how well paid, there's no way she can give individual attention to that many people--especially if she is teaching 5 classes, each with that many students.

I attended California public schools when they were considered good, and my classes were filled with immigrants. In 9th grade, I was the only white child in my classroom. In 8th grade, there were two of us. In those days, 35 students was considered overflowing and barely tolerable, usually classes were 25 to 30. Now classes can have as many as 45 students. Anyway, somehow the teachers managed to teach all those immigrants in 1968. And I know many of them were illegals because they were my friends and they told me they were. I know the state has tripled in size, but we haven't tripled the number of teachers, let alone good teachers. The best, most senior teachers are well-paid (and they work hard too), and they may be paid better than the national average, as you say, but in the county where I live, teachers don't earn enough to buy a house, even on two salaries. I think they deserve to be able to make a home in the county where they work. Because they can't, we get junior teachers who live in group houses like students until they marry and move away to start their "real" life.

And I blame the people who don't want to pay taxes for that state of affairs. Taxes are what we pay to have a civilized life and a healthy community where people vote for what will be good for their children and grandchildren, instead of what will buy them the most toys this year.
Asking

How much is enough ? Your State like most states are going to face huge budget shortfalls because of the decline in the economy . Do you think you can keep on picking people's pockets until they are empty ? I looked at the so called cuts in education there and they were actually increases. What they called a cut was the reduction in the rate of increases.

When you tax the people to death the smart one bolt to a place less burdensome ;so do businesses .

More money, more problems for state

asking, I appreciate the wonderful information you have provided. I am commenting on just one aspect, but am not discounting the rest, so please forgive me. If the immigration mess has been that bad for so long, at what point does the national and state governments get serious about stopping the immigration nightmare? Not only are they depressing the value of education, but consider the enormous expense in hospitals. I don't care if we pick illegals up in the emergency rooms or classrooms, it is past time to bring this to a halt. There is just one way in the U.S. to get the attention of the power brokers, and that is to turn the trial lawyers loose on the state and federal officials who have turned a blind eye toward this national disgrace and disaster.

Quote:

---

25 percent of students are "English learners," who need to be taught in special classes, and the number of schools serving low-income students is well above the national average.

---

California's fiscal crisis hits schools - Yahoo! News

Holy crap, is there anything that the US does well? 'Cause it seems there's massive problems with taxation, the public school system, corrupt administrators, illegal immigrants, etc. Is there anything going well there??

Thank you Tom; may I quote just a portion pertaining to illegals: "25 percent of students are "English learners," who need to be taught in special classes, and the number of schools serving low-income students is well above the national average."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Holy crap, is there anything that the US does well? 'Cause it seems there's massive problems with taxation, the public school system, corrupt administrators, illegal immigrants, etc. Is there anything going well there????

---

HI NK: there are plenty of things going very well and it is because 'government' is not involved. Last time I checked, I was able to buy gas, groceries, and medicine.

Hello again:

Ok, I guess you want me to solve it... All right.

Public education works. I know. I'm the last guy to have gotten a good public education. It worked then because we had good teachers with NO union to speak of, NO administration to speak of, and NO bureaucracy to speak of.

Then, for whatever reason, the government opened the cash window - to itself and to the union. From that point on, everybody got a piece of the education dollar except the students.

We need to fire several million federal and state bureaucrats and union officials... Then we can get on with educating our children.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George_1950

I was able to buy gas, groceries, and medicine.

---

A few million people there do not have that luxury.

I guess I see this from a sense that home schooling is like a house cat not expose

To the views of the real world -- sheltered from reality... Many teach RELIGION

Public schools teach what society is all about -- an outside cat that has to hunt to

Survive -- survival of the fittest -- being kind is not the kind of world we live in

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

how much is enough ? your State like most states are going to face huge budget shortfalls because of the decline in the economy . Do you think you can keep on picking people's pockets until they are empty ? I looked at the so called cuts in education there and they were actually increases. What they called a cut was the reduction in the rate of increases.

When you tax the people to death the smart one bolt to a place less burdensome ;so do businesses .

More money, more problems for state

---

With all respect, California's $13 billion surplus went to Enron, because of energy "deregulation," not to our teachers. The only pocket pickers in this case were the executives in private industry, not hard working public employees like teachers, police, and fire fighters. Enron found a way to pick our pocket from afar, by artificially creating hours-long energy shortages--shutting down power plants in places like Nevada--then forcing California to pay the highest rates to turn the plants back on and keep the state online.

Whether the economy has been good or bad, state per pupil spending on education has gone down. Through thick and thin, our children have been the beggars at the end of the line. Educating the next generation is what we should do out of self interest if nothing else--because our children and grandchildren are the ones who will be in charge when we are old and helpless. We need an educated nation that can earn and run the country, not ignorant folk who don't know how to do anything useful in a modern, global economy. Education is not a luxury for a few or a form of "pocket picking." California has the 6th largest economy in the world BECAUSE we invested in education in the past. To the extent we have stopped doing that, we will lose that good position in the future.
Asking

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by George_1950

HI NK: there are plenty of things going very well and it is because 'government' is not involved. Last time I checked, I was able to buy gas, groceries, and medicine.

---

Actually, all of these things are regulated and/or subsidized by the government. Just for example, the government subsidizes farms, agricultural research, and the human genome project--the backbone of industrial research for new medicines. We have cheap food because food and farming research are both subsidized and regulated. We have cheap gasoline because we use our military to influence events in the middle east and south america. If you think gas is expensive here, try buying it in Europe. We don't have cheap medicines, but we have the drugs we have because of massive gifts to researchers by the National Institutes of Health as well as heavy regulation by the Food Drug Administration. The annual budget for a single institute of NIH is a billion dollars--that's every year. And I think there are something like 20 institutes (I forget). The FDA has a separate budget.

Do I supprt all these subsidies? Not necessarily. I'm just saying that the government is involved in all the things you mentioned.
Asking

asking writes: "...I'm just saying that the government is involved in all the things you mentioned." And it has been the dismal failure of government in one of its most fundamental tasks - one for which it must not fail - to maintain and protect our borders that has led to the demise of California's high educational achievement. And on top of that, an activist judge rules that a parent does not have the right to teach his own children in a home school. In other words, Dr. Einstein couldn't teach his own kids in California; that is totally upside down, and that is what 'government' does to 'common sense'.

In general most home school children achieve better than public school, in areas like the last Spelling Bee is a good example, and do very well in their colleges. Most are taught the silly evolution ideas so they are aware what the world teaches, but as with any Christian Child, their parents should be teaching them at home anyway that their teachers are wrong and although they have to answer the questions to pass the test beyond that. Sadly that also has issues then the child will now not fully trust anything the teacher latter teaches since they are teaching them the "lies" of evolution which has to be corrected by their parents and the church.

No wonder there is a lack of respect amongst youth if parents should be telling children the teachers are wrong. I would hope some more diplomacy is shown other than simply declaring the teacher wrong and lying.

I feel sorry for kids who are home schooled (in Australia very very few are). They miss out on a wonderful time in their lives. Attending school with your mates and interacting with peers and teachers alike.

Of course though, I suppose in the US it means they do avoid the chances of being shot during English class. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skell

I feel sorry for kids who are home schooled (in Australia very very few are). They miss out on a wonderful time in their lives. Attending school with your mates and interacting with peers and teachers alike.

---

I agree with you. I'm from Canada and that's the same feeling I have. It has become apparent to me that America's school system is a pit of despair by reading these threads. Let's be glad we are where we are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I agree with you. I'm from Canada and that's the same feeling I have. It has become apparent to me that America's school system is a pit of despair by reading these threads. Let's be glad we are where we are.

---

Whoa! It's not that bad here. It depends on the school. I think there are still lots of happy kids and some great teachers. And not every school is a battleground between parents and teachers trying to teach or refute basic science. (But, on the other hand, I was just reading about how much better Canadian schools are than American schools. And I won't argue about Australia. :) )
Asking

There are school systems in the US that yes, my goodness close the doors. But there are so many that are incredible. Why the inequity... I don't know.

The school system I live in, I hear is one of the finest. $4,000.00 of the taxes I pay go towards just the school system and I live on the "lower" end. Meaning there are others that pay way more then me.

I wish they were all equal. And they should be.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/...of_public.html

I guess I'll finally chip in my two cents here. First NK, that was cute little video stunt but that isn't the issue. The issue is whether parents have a right to home school their children - even if that education doesn't conform to the ideological hogwash that permeates our public schools (especially so in my opinion). Besides that, Bill Jack, the bald guy leading the tour in the video has spoken in our church several times (not on creationism) and I've always found him to be an intelligent, inspirational and dedicated man. Teaching against evolution is hardly kooky or outrageous. Creationism makes more sense than global warming alarmists do.

The case was a child welfare case in which the attorneys for the children asked the court forced enrollment in a public or private school. If a child is in an abusive home then I can see the sense in that, but the appellate court reached further in ruling home schooling illegal in California unless the parents held a teaching license that qualifies them to teach in public schools.

The notion that the quality of education of home schooled children is at stake is a farce, as they have repeatedly been shown to outscore public school counterparts by 30-37 percent. The idea that kids need to interact with other kids and learn about life has merit, but who's to say they don't get that already in church, sports, etc. Avoiding placing your children in a poor, possibly unsafe environment also has merit.

Home schoolers list 5 main reasons for doing so, "to give their children a better education, for religious reasons, to avoid a poor school environment, for family reasons, and to instill 'character/ morality.'" I can't argue with that but I'm sure someone will.

Studies have also shown "there was little distinction between the transitional experiences of homeschooled students and traditionally educated students," and "homeschooled students also have tended to be more active in civic and community activities than the norm."

Public schools are failing, the NY Times recently reported "Fewer than half of American teenagers who were asked basic history and literature questions in a phone survey knew when the Civil War was fought, and one in four said Columbus sailed to the New World some time after 1750, not in 1492." I'm sure most home schooled children could have answered the questions. Of course they blame that on NCLB and testing students on math, language and science proficiency, saying we need to focus more on liberal arts. What they don't mention is that too many schools aren't making enough progress in NCLB categories so what's the point of more history and literature if the kids still can't read?

What would Einstein do? He would pursue the best education for his children in spite of public schools.

I agree, there are some good schools here, and some bad ones. Eight high schools (including the one I graduated from) in my county were ranked in the top 5% in the nation by Newsweek, and consistently make the list of "America's Best". The county which neighbors mine also is renowned for having great schools.

Here's the complete list, for anyone who would like to check it out:

America's Top Public High Schools | Newsweek Best High Schools | Newsweek.com

But anyway, not all schools in the States are awful, but there are a lot. Our system needs work, but can you point me to a system which is flawless? We need more equality in our schools, without a doubt, but remember, you only hear the bad things in the news - it's juicier that way! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

I agree, there are some good schools here, and some bad ones. Eight high schools (including the one I graduated from) in my county were ranked in the top 5% in the nation by Newsweek, and consistently make the list of "America's Best". The county which neighbors mine also is renowned for having great schools.

Here's the complete list, for anyone who would like to check it out:

America's Top Public High Schools | Newsweek Best High Schools | Newsweek.com

But anyway, not all schools in the States are awful, but there are a lot. Our system needs work, but can you point me to a system which is flawless? We need more equality in our schools, without a doubt, but remember, you only hear the bad things in the news - it's juicier that way! :)

---

Jill - I just have to tell you, I LOVE reading all your post. You have such a wisdom about you and an incredible way of communicating it. You WOW me every time.

Once again, great post!!

Aw, shucks, Allheart! :o

Thank you, honestly. I try to make my posts interesting, and I try to support my claims. I try not to sugar-coat too!