Are Wright’s comments really inflammatory, or are they being used out of context, as Obama's Church has claimed?
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Are Wright’s comments really inflammatory, or are they being used out of context, as Obama's Church has claimed?
The key to your answer is to switch the words white and black where they are present in his sermons. Then ask if a white candidate could attend a white separatist church and be seroiusly considered for the Presidency ?
Mods - can we merge these threads before they start spamming the board?
Yea, like Ron Paul.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I believe an argument could be made in defense of Wright, his Church and its philosophy. I just wanted to provide an opportunity for a logical argument in favor of that premise.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Or do you believe otherwise?:)
I don't know that that is an accurate test, Tom, because the black experience in America is unique—it has no real parallel. And black Americans are unique. Just as the Jew wants the world to never forget the German Holocaust, the Black feels equally about its experience.
DC perhaps but until a black candidate moves beyond victimhood then I don't think their full potential will be realized. That is what separated Obama from Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. For all of the faults I found in Obama I thought he at least transcended that . But now there is more than suspicion that he is playing a con game with the electorate .
Tom
Which raises the question, “Is Wright teaching victim-hood?” Is he teaching youth that they are victims of the white power structure, or is he teaching something more along the lines of the Jews were at one time in Russia?
"We [Jews] formed the ghetto ourselves," wrote the Zionist leader Vladamir Zabotinsky, "... voluntarily, for the same reason for which Europeans in Shanghai established their separate quarter, to be able to live their own way." [KORBANSKI, p. 8] "The Ghetto was rather a privilege than a disability," notes J. O. Hertzler, "and sometimes was claimed by the Jews as a right when its demolition was threatened." [HERTZLER, p. 73] Boas Evron cites the work of fellow Israeli scholar, Yehezkel Kaufmann, in noting that
"the popular assumption that external anti-Jewish pressures forced
Group identify and exclusivity on the Jews is unconvincing, since
Historical evidence shows that Jewish exclusivity and aloofness
Preceded outside hostility and were thus its cause, not its result...
THE JEWISH COSMOLOGY OF VICTIMHOOD, PART I
NK, just a short while ago you posted this:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
DC has offered an "an opportunity for a logical argument in favor of that premise." tom has said "For all of the faults I found in Obama I thought he at least transcended" victimhood and suggested black candidates can "reach full potential" if they would only move past that. Sounds like a couple of guys not just trying to smear Obama - and offering an opportunity for a free exchange of ideas to me.Quote:
There's no free exchange from you guys - you just come here to disparage a whole group. It's always negative, you search and dig up negative issues about a group you despise and make threads about it here. That's ALL you do. It's like negative/smear campaigning 24/7 and you're right, it is getting tiresome for the rest of us.
DC, I believe they're entirely inflammatory. I've been in church virtually all my life and these messages of Wright's are not the message of the gospel. Though I understand that I haven't been there, the "black experience" is no excuse, and Wright's admission to the NY Times that Obama may have to eventually distance himself from him tells me that Wright knows this.
It certainly isn't a Christian message of forgiveness. To tell you the truth I was once seduced by the liberation theology that some of the Maryknolls and Jesuits were preaching... That is until I discovered it was just a front for the expansion of global Marxism.
DC I really don't care if they are modelling their theology along the lines of the Jewish experience . The United States cannot be led by a person who esposes separatism. As it is we already have too much identity group politics.
I want to know ;does Obama think the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was an act of American aggression ? I think it saved thousands of GIs of ALL COLORS . I want to know if Obama thinks the US invented AIDS to infect the blacks . If he holds these views I think he is disqualified.
Hyperbole I will admit to, and that someone will subjectively be offended I don't deny, Steve.
However, for instance- in Wrights mind and the mind of his Church members who he is speaking to when he uses the term “America,” he is not referring to all Americans (Which should be obvious to anyone) but rather the 'White Power with capitol' who has governed in America since day one-and suppressed Blacks in America.
Yes Tom, even the Catholic Church appeared to buy into it in South America for a short time, and then renounced it.
An important point is what we mean when we use the term “Separatism.”
There is a great deal of controversy about whether the “Bomb” was necessary on Hiroshima and especially Nagasaki.
What are the Blacks to think as compared to white and Asian Americans, they're doing less well economically, more of their men are in jail, more of their girls have sexually transmitted diseases, few of them do as well in school, etc. How does one account for these myriad failings?
Even Liberalism has failed them… John Doggett when defending Clarence Thomas said: When I started my career as a legal services attorney in 1972, I thought that liberals really cared about the poor, the oppressed and people of color. Twenty-six years later, I have learned that while some have good intentions, many liberals are closet racists. They claim to be “sensitive, progressive and concerned,” while in reality far too many of them truly do not believe that blacks or Latinos are as smart as they are. In fact, their liberal orthodoxy cannot exist in a world where blacks and Latinos no longer “need” their help.
So separatism might appear to be the only way out for them.
But DC that argument completely disregards the advances that many Blacks have achieved (although I think you are correct in that the most successful appear to have rejected the paternalistic social contract of the libs) . But it is very disturbing that the Rev Wright rejects what he calls "middleclassness" ;the very formula to lift themselves up . Instead he champions victimhood as if he has a vested interest in preserving the status quo . Obama represents (supposedly ) moving forward. The Rev. Wright appears to me to be diametrically opposite. So then I have to ask Obama... if you espouse the philosophy of Rev Wright then how does it square with your positive message of change??
Why don't we let Mr. Obama speak for himself and judge by his actions, as he has never espoused anything the Rev's Farrakhan, and Wright, have said quite the opposite. So to try to make that mud stick, is a useless ploy, that plays on FEAR, and a smokescreen for a deep desire for him to fail. It would probably help white people to investigate, before they start to speak for the rationale of others. Until you sit in this mans church, and can speak about it, why even give credence to those political sound bits, intended to slow his momentum down?
How could he sit in the church for 20 years listening to this stuff ;calling this minister his spiritual mentor ;contribute to his church and not believe what the Reverend says ? Can you answer that ? I can't
We know you can't so stop trying.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
Are you asking in subject to Wright's opinions or that of "Black Theology?"
Well I do have issues here myself, he goes to and uses this church as a reference to show his christian belief, the church until this week has its princiiples posted on the internet ( but has since taken them off the interent) Obama references these in his previous book as major factors in his life.
The church has given Farrakhan, a achievement award ( guess no body told Obama about that either) So did he ever really go to church ?
Did he never look at his churches web site?
And if he disagreed so greatly with the churches teachings why did he stay a member all of those years.
I do believe he needs to address this, and yes, he may not believe what his pastor teaches ( but why have him as part of your campaign if you don't) I guess he needs to change his voter message, to at least I am not Hilary.
Fr_Chuck, do you think it's possible that some of your congregants don't agree with you, but still share some respect for other things you do? Enough to attend your services once in awhile? Hello! Obama already addressed the fact that he doesn't agree with Wright's comments and opinions. What else is he suppose to do? Obama's not running for pastor of a church. If this was the criteria than McCain wouldn't have a snow balls chance in Hagee's anti-Catholic hell of being elected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Yes and this has hurt McCain, but everyone does not think this should hurt Obama for some reason. If he does not agree with the major princiiiples of the church, why did he keep going,
It is like someone going and belonging to the catholic church but then saying well I don't believe in what they teach even though I was a member for 20 years,
It just seems the church was nice to use when people where referring to issues of maybe being a Muslim ( not that I ever thought he was) but his connections with their teachings will hurt him in many areas.
I am surprised Hillary has not pounced all over this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
The whole "Muslim" thing was probably first instigated by racist mischief makers as proofed by a slew of Internet chained emails, not necessarily Republican or Democrat support based. Hillary, though did perpetuate the antics until Obama got tired of the nonsense and then she realized she'd better denounce the actions. He used national TV to call her on this, i.e. the Austin debate concerning the photo. Hillary's cheap jabs failed with the Ferraro incident also. Now the flavor of the month is rehashing Wright, Farrakhan, and playing six degrees of separation to Will Smith. McCain, thus far to his credit is running a fairly decent campaign. His supporters have acted desperate knowing McCain's basic strategy leans on the war issue. It's fairly easy for most voters in that if a person liked Dubya the second term, they are more likely to vote McCain.
Wright has a right to freedom of speech. Actually, I haven't heard him say anything that I completely disagree with. But, since he is dancing too close to the truth, mainstream media will demonize him. That's their job these days.
The chickens are coming home to roost.
Yup!Quote:
Originally Posted by magprob
He is on a pedestal constructed by the "mainstream media"
Media? Wait a minute Fox news dedicated a whole segment to McCain visiting his second residency in Iraq. Maybe he's getting his mailing address confirmed with the Iraqi post office and having all his mail forwarded from the US... for the next one hundred years. :rolleyes:
Yes he is! Hellary is dancing a jig. Since I have lost all faith in the election process, all I see is a nut with boobs and a boob with nuts on the democrat side. Don't even want to talk about the NeoCon war monger.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Quote:
Originally Posted by magprob
The general election system is antiquated and the Democratic primary/caucus formulation has gone into the realm of ridiculous. I'll respect your expressed sentiment and I do appreciate your humor. L-rd knows we need it. From one my favorite artists...
ARTIST: John Lennon
TITLE: Nobody Told Me
Everybody's talking and no one says a word
Everybody's making love and no one really cares
There's Nazis in the bathroom just below the stairs
There's always something happening and nothing going on
There's always something cooking and nothing in the pot
They're starving back in China, so finish what you got
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Strange days indeed, strange days indeed
Everybody's runnin' and no one makes a move
Well everybody's a winner and nothing left to lose
There's a little yellow idol to the north of Katmandu
Everybody's flying and no one leaves the ground
Well everybody's crying and no one makes a sound
There's a place for us in movies, you just got to lay around
... most peculiar
Everybody's smoking and no one's getting high
Everybody's flying and never touch the sky
There's UFO's over in New York and I ain't too surprised
... most peculiar, whoa
Thank you Bobby. John has been my favorite human since I was 8. I appreciate your open mind and level head.
Imagine John and Willie on the same lineup? How would you control yourself Mag?
Well now, let's just take a look at this article for your answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
Newsmax.com - Obama Attended Hate America Sermon
That article and indeed the website it comes from has been addressed previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
I believe Obama dealt with these issues in his speech yesterday.
American politics, is the dirtiest business in the world, and no matter who it is, or what the topic is, the enemies of a candidate, will use anything they can to derail, that candidate. All excuses, as we can think for ourselves, and see through the crap being thrown (most can any way). You just have to figure Obama's enemies, have no choice, but to try and slow this guy down. He has them all scared, and rightfully so. Now we can see what he is made of.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
What half of the equator are you residing on? Like Skell said earlier, you're about five threads late to the party. Obama rose above the Republican fray after re-addressing these issues some 12 hours plus ago. Stay in touch, man.
Excellent point. If Obama weathers the nonsense storms it should just make him stronger. I hope he gets the nomination so that after that first national debate, the McCain choir will stop singing out of tune.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
It is called vetting . We are trying to find out who Barak Obama is ;since his public record is so thin we have to look to other areas. The fact is that there is no way to know who he is from the combination of his current rhetoric and his current past associations . On the surface they appear incongruous .
I'm sorry if you don't think this is an approriate area of inquiry but we are deciding on who our leader should be for the next 4 years . He may be the next Lincoln for all I know ;but he could also be a great con man. All I know is that if a white man spend almost his entire adult life in an Ayrian white separatist organization and that fact was publicly known he should be instantly disqualified for the highest office in the land.
Jeremiah was a bullfrog,
He was a good friend of mine,
I never understood a single word he said,
But I helped him drink his wine.
That's a very good point and if you wish to judge someone by a few seconds of their life by a few sound bites, is that fair or accurate. Are we skipping over the fact the Rev. Wright served his country? And his community? Are we aware of what he may have seen, over his lifetime? Its more like nitpicking than fact finding. To the Senators credit he had the integrity, and loyalty, to tell it like it is as he stated, if those few seconds of tape where all that he knew of the man, he would have been gone. Kudos, for not caving to the media, or anyone else, and that's what we need in the highest office. Someone for all the people, not just the PC ones.Quote:
All I know is that if a white man spend almost his entire adult life in an Ayrian white separatist organization and that fact was publicly known he should be instantly disqualified for the highest office in the land.
At Willie's and my age, we will be on the same line up before long.
Taliniman
The litany of Republicans who's careers (which were much longer than Obama's )were destroyed for slimmer pretext of perceived racism is available . I cannot a this time name all ,but a good example is Trent Lott ;who had the audacity of honoring long time Senator Strom Thurmon on the event of his 100th birthday. Due to that little dust up he was forced to give up his leadership in the Senate and eventually resigned.
Also let's not forget a single moment in the career of Sen George Allen who was almost assured the Republican nomination until he made the single mistake of calling a stalker macacca.
Obama has not answered adequately for me how a 20 year implicit endorsement of black liberation theology has framed the person he is . Black liberation theology is not the theology of social Christianity that leaders like MLK Jr espoused . It is clearly separatist and it just is not congruent to the philosophy that a "uniter " would subscribe to .
Ol' Trent was a big wheeler dealer, and had allegations of fundraising problems here in Texas.Quote:
The litany of Republicans who's careers (which were much longer than Obama's )were destroyed for slimmer pretext of perceived racism is available . I cannot a this time name all ,but a good example is Trent Lott ;who had the audacity of honoring long time Senator Strom Thurmon on the event of his 100th birthday. Due to that little dust up he was forced to give up his leadership in the Senate and eventually resigned.
And the senator has said what, about who? Allen sank his own ship.Quote:
Also let's not forget a single moment in the career of Sen George Allen who was almost assured the Republican nomination until he made the single mistake of calling a stalker macacca.
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