Ok, I'm sure you have all heard about the kid that ran away from the military to Canada to avoid going to Iraq. His first excuse was that he thought if he returned he'd be persecuted, but since that didn't fly, he decided to claim the war was illegal. Obviously because this wasn't his first opinoin he is just making up excuses. Also, he VOLUNTEERED FOR THE MILITARY!! It's not like he was drafted and is dodging. Holy cow, what kind of person volunteers for the military knowing he will probably go to Iraq, and after he sucks on my tax dollars, he chickens out a few days before departure and flees to Canada. I understand he's scared to go to war, I sure would be. But what a waste and dishonor!! Especially for just using the excuse that the war is illegal (which has yet to be proven). This boy has dug himself a HUGE hole, and I don't think he really knows what he's doing.

I will probably get razzed for this, but my exhusband stayed in college by the skin of his teeth to prevent Viet Nam or he would have gone to Canada too, he did not 'believe' in killing, ha ha, he was a sociopath and a wife beater, but did not believe in killing...

Then, since working for the military all of most of my career life, I've met soldiers who joined the Army and Air Force as a alternative to going to jail and being former gang members. So I guess it's OK to join a gang, go through initiation of killing in your own streets, and beating up and/or robbing people, but it's not OK to do the job you are getting paid to do when you wear that uniform. I'm not for war or against it, just a scared human being on a planet with a lot of wars for many different reasons. This young man could have gone to his psychiatrist, taken drugs, or something else to get discharged on a Chapter instead of going from the frying pan into the fire, but that's life.

We are all experiencing WW III, in our own way, and it will probably get worse before better, but if you wear the uniform, don't expect to get paid sitting around at home.

I lost a lot of friends in Viet Nam, and Iraq, also in New York, and mourn for them all and can understand the stress and fears every soldier goes through. Unfortunately it's part of reality.

Can we say long prison term, if he wants something that should really scare him.

No one forces anyone into the military. Too many of the reserve in years past joined not believing they would have to go. But today, every even in the reserves have had to enlist or re-enlist since the war has been going on.

He should be punihsed to the full extent that the military can give him

Hi,
Whether he knows what is he doing or not, he made a really bad choice.
Now, he has to live with it for a very long time. Many make choices in life, then back out at the last minute.
I won't go into the Iraq war, cause it's being debated now among the American people, and Congress. Some did the same thing during the last wars, changing their mind at the last minute; some even beforehand, when the draft was still in effect.

I can see someone joining the military just to get, say, a computer job in this tough market. That person just wants to repair PCs and not be blown up by resistance fighters. I'm sure the guy would have less of a problem if the war he was involved in was to directly defend the US but this Iraq invasion is not.

Very well put!

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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956

Ok, i'm sure you have all heard about the kid that ran away from the military to Canada to avoid going to Iraq. His first excuse was that he thought if he returned he'd be persecuted, but since that didn't fly, he decided to claim the war was illegal. Obviously because this wasn't his first opinoin he is jsut making up excuses. Also, he VOLUNTEERED FOR THE MILITARY!!!! It's not like he was drafted and is dodging. Holy cow, what kind of person volunteers for the military knowing he will probably go to Iraq, and after he sucks on my tax dollars, he chickens out a few days before departure and flees to Canada. I understand he's scared to go to war, i sure would be. But what a waste and dishonor!!!!!! Especially for just using the excuse that the war is illegal (which has yet to be proven). This boy has dug himself a HUGE hole, and i don't think he really knows what he's doing.

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Very well said. It's a sad state of affairs when qualified young people don't want to take up arms and fight for their country. If this trend continues, our grandkids will be speaking arabic and our granddaughters will be keeping their faces veiled in public and categorically denied the right to even learn to read and write or choose their own husband. Incidentally, how doen one go about "proving" that a war is "illegal?" Did Cngress not authorize president Bush to use military force against Iraq? That makes the war perfectly "legal." Nothing in the military is illegal unless it violates the UCMJ or the Geneva Convention ; not that any other country besides the US pays attention to the latter. FREEDOM Isn't FREE. It's time for all of you under 50 (most of you who are over 50 already know this) to wake up and smell the coffee. I personally am under 50 but I know my history even if I didn't live it firsthand. Frankly I don't want to give our enemies an open invitation to come and take our country because we're afraid to fight. But that's exactly the message we're sending out.

Absolutely!

Every war is to directly defend the US, in one way or another

I would like to just add to the previous comment, that those who argue that congress and the President had different intelligence, well, how about president CLinton who also said that Saddam had WMD's? I think it's obvious that the previous claim is beyond any reason. IF there was flawed intel, we got the same stuff!! The mere fact that Clinton, the democratic road scholar (in other words the man is a genious, and you have know idea how hard it is for me to type that) shows that the intel was more than just believable by all parties.

You think it's an illegal war, ask those who are there:
www.theotheriraq.com

It's your obligation to check this out.

Is the Iraq war illegal? How can it be when it was supported by Congress? If someone joins the military they have entered into a legal and binding contract. To breach that contract is illegal.

Those are irrefutable facts. While I can appreciate and understand anyone's disdain for this war, the force of that contract takes precendence.

But I have to comment on one other comment here:

"s_cianci disagrees: Every war is to directly defend the US, in one way or another"

That is so naïve its almost laughable. If you had said "Every war is to further US interests, in one or another" I could agree. But there have been several wars or conflicts that had nothing to do with defending the US.

Scott<>

So why are you not in Iraq, fighting the good war?

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Originally Posted by s_cianci

Very well said. It's a sad state of affairs when qualified young people don't want to take up arms and fight for their country. If this trend continues, our grandkids will be speaking arabic and our granddaughters will be keeping their faces veiled in public and categorically denied the right to even learn to read and write or choose their own husband. Incidentially, how doen one go about "proving" that a war is "illegal?" Did Cngress not authorize president Bush to use military force against Iraq? That makes the war perfectly "legal." Nothing in the military is illegal unless it violates the UCMJ or the Geneva Convention ; not that any other country besides the US pays attention to the latter. FREEDOM ISN"T FREE. It's time for all of you under 50 (most of you who are over 50 already know this) to wake up and smell the coffee. I personally am under 50 but I know my history even if I didn't live it firsthand. Frankly I don't want to give our enemies an open invitation to come and take our country because we're afraid to fight. But that's exactly the message we're sending out.

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Until now, I don't full get it why a lot of money & men are wasted on the fight in Iraq. To consider that most evidence points out to Afghanistan. While I strongly believe that we should condemn terrorism, it is not right to waste so much innocent lives there. Our men & their children & women have died for this cause.

I needed a laugh this morning and this is it,
"s_cianci disagrees: Every war is to directly defend the US, in one way or another"
Spoken like a true right wingnut! From Reagan right on the Republicans have led us into quagmire after quagmire. And please don't pull that old saw that Clinton agreed that Iraq had WMD. He wasn't the one that put us in the middle against advisement. It's not his kids that are paying the price.
You also gave me a chuckle when you said." Nothing in the military is illegal unless it violates the UCMJ or the Geneva Convention"
I guess torture doesn't violate the Geneva Convention unless some other nation does it."What world do you live in anyhow?
I am a combat vet from the last war that we went into to defend ourselves after we were attacked. Since you seem to think that every war we have waged has been for defensive reasons I'll not even bother telling you which one it was. In the meantime you keep on sounding like a cheap imitation of Cheny or Karl Rove and I'll keep on shooting you down. Tom

Sh*t! I click the wrong button, I meant to say I Approve, of course. I'll try to get that fixed.

I will add that I don't have a real problem with those that don't want to fight personally, people should not be forced into it unless their very life or nation is serious at risk.

I do have a problem with the fact that not every able Iraq is not lined up to join the military or the police force. If they want to be free, they have to personally fight for it, this is their fight.

That was my issue with the draft, but every single people in the military or reserve signed a paper while there was fighting going on

I was born during the time of the draft, I got my draft card ( still have it)
And watched the little numbers being picked on TV. The only stupid lottery I have ever won in my life. Well I inlisted the next day so I could get the job I wanted.

(yep, signed the papers was promised my job, then after basic they put me where they wanted me anyway, Oh well)

My step-dad was born in 1908, joined the Army before he was 18, fought in North Africa. My dad fought in Korea. I'm sure that they did not stop thinking about their families and friends through it all, but they had a mission and did not shirk it. My first fiancé is still missing in Viet Nam - he was just as frightened, and so was I. Every 'conflict' has sacrificed people, and those left at home handled it as best as possible. Now we call it 'post-traumatic stress syndrome' and it hits every one of us involved, in uniform or out. How would the world have looked like with people like Hitler as a 'winner'? How is our future going to look like? Nobody's sure, but it's not the time to be passive with things like the current terrorism, and other threats, no matter from where. Most need the reassurance that it will not be tolerated. Ask those in New York how they feel. Why do so many Vietnamese and Koreans immigrate? And now, there are Germans who want to leave their own country because things are getting 'hot' and no longer a 'free ride'. There is no solution, but passivity until it comes to your own backyard is not the answer, and neither is running away.

What do we try to teach our kids when they are 'bullied' in school? Most of us try to instill courage, or some want to fight their battles for them. Not all arguments big or small are 'fair'. Ask a Viet Nam veteran who the 'real' enemy was.

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Originally Posted by s_cianci

It's a sad state of affairs when qualified young people don't want to take up arms and fight for their country.

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Another ridiculous and naïve comment. I don't see anyone refusing to fight for their country. I do see people refusing, and rightly so, to fight for a different country. Bush's actions in Iraq, were premature and ill-advised. There is no question about that. In my opinion they were also unethical and immoral. And I said the same before the war started.

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to fight this war.

Scott<>

Even though I'm not a fan of the french political structure during Viet Nam (because I think they started the,mess, chickened out, and then expected the US to clean up) or current events, I do seem to remember some history book that taught me that they did fight a battle for another country a long time ago, and it was not their war either...
There is a military structure, and it does not involve raising your hand and stating if you want to get involved in this conflict or another, no votes count here. There is no union either. You sign the papers, get your paycheck, get free medical treatment for you and your family, get to travel to other countries, learn other cultures, get an education you probably couldn't afford in civilian life. You are obligated for a certain time in your life to serve and protect the freedom of your country as well as assisting other countries to gain their freedom. Until someone comes up with another solution, that's a fact, jack...

The Iraq people have been oppressed by tyranny for so long that they still fear repercusssion - it's all a long process for any country, otherwise wars would be finished on a schedule - that seems like micromanagent thinking and not reality.

First I don't really know what is going on in Iraq, but I do know what is going on at home. I go to my high school and they're are recuiters there asking if I am willing to do combat, and I don't know what to say. A lot of people have their ideas on this but most of them aren't at risk of fighting, the majority of you on here will not fight this war, but yet you tell us to go out there and do what's right. Right is a point of view. I know and commend any body who goes out there and fights in Iraq, and yes most of them do it for other reasons(money, jobs, education). For instance a girl who sits in front of me in calculus tells me that her future husband is going to fight in Iraq and she will join the army too, not for the freedom of the Iraqi's but rather so they can have a nice house and a white pickett fence. They do it to keep the american dream alive not to help the right wing or the left wing, and that is honorable. But remember that most teenager want to start there lives not have to go out and have a chance of it being taken away, that is a major decision to say the least, and it takes a special kind of person to have the capacity to kill. So if you ask me if I am in favor of Iraq, no I am not but I don't dissaprove either, I am more angered that my generation is looked down upon and considered by most as having no ethics or no ambition and that all we do to is drink/sleep/watch mtv/ and fight with each other, yet we are the ones fighting the war. So instead of everyone putting us down and saying that the world is going to hell and we are driving why can't you at the very least express some sort of gratitude for fighting this war, when in all honesty we don't have to.

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Originally Posted by speedball1

I needed a laugh this morning and this is it,
"s_cianci disagrees: Every war is to directly defend the US, in one way or another"
Spoken like a true right wingnut!! From Reagan right on the Republicans have led us into quagmire after quagmire. And please don't pull that old saw that Clinton agreed that Iraq had WMD. He wasn't the one that put us in the middle against advisement. It's not his kids that are paying the price.
You also gave me a chuckle when you said." Nothing in the military is illegal unless it violates the UCMJ or the Geneva Convention"
I guess torture doesn't violate the Geneva Convention unless some other nation does it."What world do you live in anyhow?
I am a combat vet from the last war that we went into to defend ourselves after we were attacked. Since you seem to think that every war we have waged has been for defensive reasons I'll not even bother telling you which one it was. In the meantime you keep on sounding like a cheap imitation of Cheny or Karl Rove and I'll keep on shooting you down. Tom

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You use the word "quagmire" so loosly I have to question if you are using it correctly. Tell me, what are all the "quagmire's" we have allegedly fought in?

You guys also need to remember how long it took for us to get a constitution and finally get peace. It took about a hundred years for our country to start progressing as a union. What if no one helped us? You have no right to claim we are a superpower but aren't willing to help those under us. That's what I call classism, racism, and any other discriminating term. You are so obsessed with equal outcome here in america I'd tink you're a bunch of communists. WHAT IS WRONG WITH HELPING ANOTHER COUNTRY? You blame republicans (very very proud republicans) like me calling me racist and telling me I'm bad because I don't agree with gays, yet when I want to help needy people of another country held under tyrranny you say NO. Is it just me or does anyone else see the hypocrisy in it all?

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Originally Posted by wizzkid89

First I don't really know what is going on in Iraq, but I do know what is going on at home. I go to my highschool and theyre are recuiters there asking if I am willing to do combat, and I don't know what to say. A lot of people have their ideas on this but most of them arent at risk of fighting, the majority of you on here will not fight this war, but yet you tell us to go out there and do what's right. Right is a point of view. I know and commend any body who goes out there and fights in Iraq, and yes most of them do it for other reasons(money, jobs, education). For instance a girl who sits in front of me in calculus tells me that her future husband is going to fight in Iraq and she will join the army too, not for the freedom of the Iraqi's but rather so they can have a nice house and a white pickett fence. They do it to keep the american dream alive not to help the right wing or the left wing, and that is honorable. But remember that most teenager want to start there lives not have to go out and have a chance of it being taken away, that is a major decision to say the least, and it takes a special kind of person to have the capacity to kill. So if you ask me if I am in favor of Iraq, no I am not but I don't dissaprove either, I am more angered that my generation is looked down upon and considered by most as having no ethics or no ambition and that all we do to is drink/sleep/watch mtv/ and fight with each other, yet we are the ones fighting the war. So instead of everyone putting us down and saying that the world is going to hell and we are driving why can't you at the very least express some sort of gratitude for fighting this war, when in all honesty we don't have to.

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You are a very intelligent young person, and I like what you write. Yes, under peaceful circumstances, a lot of couples would join the military as a chance to better their financial and social future. There is nothing wrong with that. But in cases of conflict, we have to accept the obligations of that signature. I'm 55, from a mostly military family and proud of it. If I were of age, I'd join up and do my duty along with all the other young people who believe in the freedom and rights for others, to include oppressed countries - as it's human to want the equal rights for all living on this planet. OR, is all the media talk about China, Korea, and former Yugoslavia just to mention a few, a subject to get 15 minutes of fame. Everyone talks about human rights, and just like everything else it has it's price. Some are willing to pay, some not.
Picture this planet as your neighborhood and hear a child cry constantly because it does not get the care, love, and nourishement from parents who are always out having a party.. would you be one to call the authorities, or ignore the issue. Or what would you do if you saw someone raped or robbed? See the picture? This planet is our home, we are all a big family with bickerig siblings, loving siblings, selfish, and non-committed siblings. We all have a choice regarding the amount of emotional and financial investment we want to expend and how to spread it. We were young once too, and had the same thoughts and fears as you do, to include the arguments for and against the same on-going issues, just different eras - and each had it's fanatics, gangs, crime, etc, that's all - and it was not as wide-spread by the media, but still there. I for one don't judge you and wish you all the health and success and any other goal in your life!
Wishing you a Happy Thanksgiving! Some cannot even be thankful for one day of peace.. we all need to hope for change.

First thank you chery for your compliments, I do to enjoy what you write, like I said previously I don't know all the facts about Iraq, and I agree that we should step in and help these people out, but I don't agree that war has to be used, I would hope more diplomatic procedures could have been taken, and as I understand it we tried that and there was no cooperation, however I just don't like war and military conflict as it will hurt everyone and usually when you look back on things there might have been an alternate route, but I do understand that we need to help just I just don't agree with us trying to turn them into a nother america and instituting western civilization, such as religion, and democracy, because just because our system works for us doesn't allow us to spread it like it is a cure. In the end I understand that they need help and all I can say is I hope things turn out for the best and happy holidays.

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Originally Posted by wizzkid89

First thank you chery for your compliments, I do to enjoy what you write, like I said previously I don't know all the facts about Iraq, and I agree that we should step in and help these people out, but I don't agree that war has to be used, I would hope more diplomatic procedures could have been taken, and as I understand it we tried that and there was no cooperation, however I just don't like war and military conflict as it will hurt everyone and usually when you look back on things there might have been an alternate route, but I do understand that we need to help just I just don't agree with us trying to turn them into a nother america and instituting western civilization, such as religion, and democracy, because just because our system works for us doesn't allow us to spread it like it is a cure. In the end I understand that they need help and all I can say is I hope things turn out for the best and happy holidays.

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Thanks, you too. Just because I laud the military and it's traditions does not mean I agree with all politicians and/or the money behind the motives. Maybe our next generation will be less currupt and make some changes, but right now, it's all we've got. I'm talking about the entire world here, not just the U.S. Please don't forget about all attempts of 'ethnic cleansing' that's still rampant, unfortunately, so, I'd opt for democracy.

From the mouths of babes-for someone so young you sure nailed it.We could have done a few things different but its too late for that.Just one question tho-The Iraqis under Hussein were feared through out the region and among his own followers. How much training do these guys need anyway to defend themselves and their country.(can you tell I don't believe Bush/Cheny at all but support the troops 100%) :cool:

Thanks for the compliment much appreciated, I also liked the question you asked and I hope someone can answer it.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

From the mouths of babes-for someone so young you sure nailed it.We could have done a few things different but its too late for that.Just one question tho-The Iraqis under Hussein were feared thru out the region and among his own followers. How much training do these guys need anyway to defend themselves and their country.(can you tell I don't believe Bush/Cheny at all but support the troops 100%) :cool:

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This is just a guess, but those that fought under his regime were forced to do some 'ethnic cleansing' among fellow countrymen too, and if the troops pulled out now, it would start all over again, which would not be financially profitable for any of the other countries just waiting to get in, i.e. France, Germany, Russia, etc. Then there might be influence against the western world and Israel from the surrounding countries. Just a thought.. Wars are not only fought for independence but for financial gain and power as well.

I was just eyeing this thread and something popped into me head, this war is very similar to Vietnam War. The reason we went to vietnam was to prevent communism from being spread to South Vietnam, but the problem with that war is that America didn't want the Russian way(communism) to take over South Vietnam, but years before that people believed that communism was an acceptable political party, but since the cold war happened, communism has been frowned upon. When communism, ideally, is a great system, when Karl Marx developed his theories it was for the betterment of Russia, I believe it was during or before the October revolutions, and here is the point I am trying to make, we have taken the tyrant out, Saddam is gone, now we need to extract all US forces, and handle this diplomatically, we used our force to instate a new government, we have done all we can, we need the Iraqi people to take it from here, or else it will be a lost cause like Vietnam, a wast of money and lives, we are supposed to help and help them get off the ground, we have done that, I fear if we stay there any longer that it would end up more beneficial to just claim the territory U.S. and just enstate all of our rules. I know there is still gangs ruining the country but we need to pull out and let the UN handle this with Iraq. Just because we are a superpower doesn't mean we have to do everything? Or does it?

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Originally Posted by wizzkid89

I was just eyeing this thread and something popped into me head, this war is very similar to Vietnam War. The reason we went to vietnam was to prevent communism from being spread to South Vietnam, but the problem with that war is that America didn't want the Russian way(communism) to take over South Vietnam, but years before that people believed that communism was an acceptable political party, but since the cold war happened, communism has been frowned upon. When communism, ideally, is a great system, when Karl Marx developed his theories it was for the betterment of Russia, I believe it was during or before the October revolutions, and here is the point I am trying to make, we have taken the tyrant out, Saddam is gone, now we need to extract all US forces, and handle this diplomatically, we used our force to instate a new government, we have done all we can, we need the Iraqi people to take it from here, or else it will be a lost cause like Vietnam, a wast of money and lives, we are supposed to help and help them get off the ground, we have done that, I fear if we stay there any longer that it would end up more beneficial to just claim the territory U.S. and just enstate all of our rules. I know there is still gangs ruining the country but we need to pull out and let the UN handle this with Iraq. Just because we are a superpower doesn't mean we have to do everything? Or does it?

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The only profit gained from Vietman was keeping munitions factories going. This is a completely different scene. If you look at history, this part of he world has always been soaked with blood, and unfortunately will continue because of the hatred fed through the milk of mothers to their babies from the beginning. This might not make sense to you at present, but think about it.

I know I might be getting off topic here, but does anyone know of what the US has done with Saddam Huessein, I remember him being captured by I never knew what was going to happen to him?

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Originally Posted by Chery

The only profit gained from Vietman was keeping munitions factories going. This is a completely different scene. If you look at history, this part of he world has always been soaked with blood, and unfortunately will continue because of the hatred fed through the milk of mothers to their babies from the beginning. This might not make sense to you at present, but think about it.

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The same is true of the middle east and if you follow history the US has been knee deep in it .Saddam is on trial in iraq and his lawyers are afrid for their lives. :cool:

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Originally Posted by wizzkid89

I know I might be getting off topic here, but does anyone know of what the US has done with Saddam Huessein, I remember him being captured by I never knew what was gonna happen to him?

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There is a trial currently underway but his lawyers keep getting murdered.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110800368.html

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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956

You guys also need to remember how long it took for us to get a constitution and finally get peace. As a matter of fact it took about a hundred years for our country to start progressing as a union. What if noone helped us? You have no right to claim we are a superpower but aren't willing to help those under us. That's what i call classism, racism, and any other discriminating term. You are so obsessed with equal outcome here in america i'd tink your a bunch of communists. WHAT IS WRONG WITH HELPING ANOTHER COUNTRY? You blame republicans (very very proud republicans) like me calling me racist and telling me i'm bad because i dont agree with gays, yet when i want to help needy people of another country held under tyrranny you say NO. Is it just me or does anyone else see the hypocrisy in it all?!

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Who has said anything against helping another country? But invading a country and overthrowing an existing government goes a bit over that line. Did any Iraqis ask for our help? The US has supported several totalitarian governments when it suited our interests (or perceived interests).

Nor did I see anyone calling you a racist. Bigot maybe, but not a racist. While a racist is almost always a bigot, a bigot is not necessarily a racist. No one has said you were bad for not agreeing with gays either. We have just disagreed with your position. Again, emotional arguments instead of factual ones.

How long did it take to get a constitution? Well the drafting committee took about 6 months to come up with the draft that was submitted to the colonies for ratification. That ratification process took about a year and a half.

Not sure what you are referring to in your 100 years statement.

Scott<>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wizzkid89

I was just eyeing this thread and something popped into me head, this war is very similar to Vietnam War. The reason we went to vietnam was to prevent communism from being spread to South Vietnam, but the problem with that war is that America didn't want the Russian way(communism) to take over South Vietnam, but years before that people believed that communism was an acceptable political party, but since the cold war happened, communism has been frowned upon. When communism, ideally, is a great system, when Karl Marx developed his theories it was for the betterment of Russia, I believe it was during or before the October revolutions, and here is the point I am trying to make, we have taken the tyrant out, Saddam is gone, now we need to extract all US forces, and handle this diplomatically, we used our force to instate a new government, we have done all we can, we need the Iraqi people to take it from here, or else it will be a lost cause like Vietnam, a wast of money and lives, we are supposed to help and help them get off the ground, we have done that, I fear if we stay there any longer that it would end up more beneficial to just claim the territory U.S. and just enstate all of our rules. I know there is still gangs ruining the country but we need to pull out and let the UN handle this with Iraq. Just because we are a superpower doesn't mean we have to do everything? Or does it?

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Whiz,
You have posted some very intelligent and thoughtful remarks, but you need to study your history and current events much more. I would strongly suggest that you pick up your daily paper and read the news. You don't have to read all the articles, but scanning the headlines and reading the first paragraph or two will give you a much better idea of what is going on in the world.

For example, you question about Hussein shows a real lack of following even the highlights of what is going on. The trial has been prominently featured.

Karl Marx and Frederick Engels were Germans. When they wrote the Communist Manifesto, it was not for any specific country, but rather as the blueprint for a social revolution. The Manifesto was written in 1848 more than 50 years before the October Revolutions. It was adopted by radical Russians, seeking to overthrow the Tsar that ruled Russia but it was never written by Marx for Russia.

Communism as a political system was corrupted by the Russians. And it failed because it really goes against human nature.

As to pulling out of Iraq, I'm afraid your naïveté is showing. I have been vocal about the mistake that was made in getting involved in the first place. But the fact is we are stuck. For us to just pull out at this point would be to destabilize the situation and just make things worse. Yes we need to withdraw, but it needs to be done right to maintain the stability of the region.

Scott<>

Hi,
"But the fact is we are stuck. For us to just pull out at this point would be to destabilize the situation and just make things worse. yes we need to withdraw, but it needs to be done right to maintain the stability of the region."

The above quote was used many times during the Viet Nam war. Many said if we pull out now, it will give the wrong signal to the Troops; not to mention "stabilize the region". Over 50,000 American lives were lost in that war. I am not saying this many will be lost in Iraq. One life is too many for a "cause" that was a mistake to begin with. We get caught up in fighting all over the world, staying much longer than we should, because some think we have to stay there, to "stabilize". The pull-out timetable is now 2006, which is yet to be seen.

There has never been stability in the middle east And sadly probably never will be :eek:

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
"But the fact is we are stuck. For us to just pull out at this point would be to destabilize the situation and just make things worse. yes we need to withdraw, but it needs to be done right to maintain the stability of the region."

The above quote was used many times during the Viet Nam war. Many said if we pull out now, it will give the wrong signal to the Troops; not to mention "stabilize the region". Over 50,000 American lives were lost in that war. I am not saying this many will be lost in Iraq. One life is too many for a "cause" that was a mistake to begin with. We get caught up in fighting all over the world, staying much longer than we should, because some think we have to stay there, to "stabilize". The pull-out timetable is now 2006, which is yet to be seen.

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You are right, the same argument was used to stay in VietNam. And look what happened when we just pulled out! And the situation is worse in Iraq. At least North Vietnam had a stable government to take over.

Do you think that we are really supporting our troops by calling for a unilateral pullout?

I'm curious, how did you feel about the prospect of this war before we invaded?

Scott<>

Right after "W" was first elected, the consensus in our neighborhood was we would be in Iraq within a year.To our surprise that didn't happen.But along comes 911 and we end up in Afghanistan.We were all for it,go get Bin Laden.Then to our surprise,we hear about the connection between alQaida and Saddam and weapons of mass destruction.Next thing you know we have invaded Iraq.At the time I thought it was a stretch to connect the Saddam regime to alQaida especially after the U.N. found nothing in Iraq no evidence of wmd's,but George went anyway.What was interesting were the deals everybody had cut to get oil from Saddam at a cutrate price(france,germany,russia to name a few) and the oil for food abuse that came out and the U.N.sect.general knew about it.I suspect that George knew too.Our invasion cut all that short but still I would not have committed going to Iraq.In light of the debacle with the homeland security and the lack of a solid plan to fight terror the only thing I see is **** Cheney's boys making millions no billion in Iraq. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

There has never been stability in the middle east And sadly probably never will be :eek:

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This is true, but one can dream ;)

I also agree with your other points. Your view of the history of the Iraqi invasion jives almost exactly with mine. I supported Afghanistan without reservation. I was just as adamantly against Iraq. While the US has manufactured justification for war before (Remember the Maine!), it has never been as blatant or as imperialistic as this time.

Scott<>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
"But the fact is we are stuck. For us to just pull out at this point would be to destabilize the situation and just make things worse. yes we need to withdraw, but it needs to be done right to maintain the stability of the region."

The above quote was used many times during the Viet Nam war. Many said if we pull out now, it will give the wrong signal to the Troops; not to mention "stabilize the region". Over 50,000 American lives were lost in that war. I am not saying this many will be lost in Iraq. One life is too many for a "cause" that was a mistake to begin with. We get caught up in fighting all over the world, staying much longer than we should, because some think we have to stay there, to "stabilize". The pull-out timetable is now 2006, which is yet to be seen.

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It's unfortunate, and the VietNam war was doomed to be a fiasco - it was started by another country, and the US was asked to 'clean up', some troops were not killed by the enemy, but by the cheap drugs provided by the enemy and also 'friendly fire'. What gets me upset is how the troops that did survive got treated after coming home, even though they made several munitions factories rich. The mid-east is an unfortunate necessity to prevent threats worldwide - but also for self-gain for countries waiting like vultures for profits. As I said before, there has always been blood in that ground and will continue to be and in my opinion it has to do with the rising dissent of religious fanatics as well and must be contained and not allowed to spread. This was not the case in VietNam. I wonder how the surviving troops of this 'crusade' will be treated upon their return. Will they also be a burden to those who don't want to face the reality of weakensses within? Does anyone know where the word 'skapegoat' originated? :(