I was wondering what peoploe think about organizations like the ACLU trying to get christian icons removed from public schools. They go as far as saying that even the colors red and green count as icons for christmas and should not be used. It seems to me they are a bunch of people who fight for freedom of expression and religion as long as your not a christian. In case anyone doesn't believe they (ACLU) aren't radicals, Hellen Keller was extremely radical (on the socialist side, which is understanable from her past of overcoming disabilities) and helped in the establishment of the ACLU. Any ideas? Further, are there any christians out there who are offended when corporations prohibit employees from wishing you a merry christmas?

I'm not from USA and am not familiar with ACLU, but the whole "ban the red and green color" seems like a mix of redicilous and stupid thing to fight for. I know I would be annoyed if they tried convincing (or even talking to) me not to use such colors because whatever reasons they might give me. I'm cool with them fighting for their own right, and they can choose not to use red and green color (I know it's just an example, but I have nothing else to say instead of that example), but if they annoy me with it - I won't like it. Same with homosexuals/vegetarians/people-who-decide-not-to-drive-a-car... fine, be what you want, do what you want, but don't force me to do the same thing you're doing.

About the corporations thing... I'm a christian, but I wouldn't wish a merry christmas to anyone I'm not sure would enjoy me wishing him/her a merry christmas. But I have friends for who I'm sure they celebrate christmas, so I do wish them a merry christmas when it's appropriate. I sure do not mind other people not wishing me a merry christmas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956

I was wondering what peoploe think about organizations like the ACLU trying to get christian icons removed from public schools. They go as far as saying that even the colors red and green count as icons for christmas and should not be used. It seems to me they are a bunch of people who fight for freedom of expression and religion as long as your not a christian. In case anyone doesn't believe they (ACLU) aren't radicals, Hellen Keller was extremely radical (on the socialist side, which is understanable from her past of overcoming disabilities) and helped in the establishment of the ACLU. Any ideas? Further, are there any christians out there who are offended when corporations prohibit employees from wishing you a merry christmas?

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Clearly you are anti-liberal. So anything you post has to be viewed in that light.

I consider myself a liberal. But I also pride myself on keeping an open mind about things. Somethng I haven't noticed in the few of your posts that I've read.

The ACLU considers themselves the watchdog of american liberties. They zealously guard those liberties whenever and wherever they feel they are being weakened. Do they go too far at times? I think so. But I would much rather have them err on the side of preserving liberties then allowing them to be weakened.

Your characterization of them being anti-christian is typical conservative blowing smoke. When the ACLU fights against religious icons in schools they do so because of the constitutional mandate of the separation of church and state. NOT because of any anti-christian attitude. I've seen cases where menorahs on public grounds were also fought against. On the other hand, I've never heard of the ACLU protesting the Rockefeller Center Christmas Tree or shopping malls having Santa Clauses or other religious decorations. That's because such places are PRIVATE property so no constitutional violation exists.

My personal philosophy is that anyone should be able to do anything they want up to but NOT including interfering with the right of someone else to do what they want.

Scott<>

Hi,
I agree completely with your post and comments.
I am a Christian.
The original Mayflower Pact contains the words "God" (not Gods), and says the reason for establishing a new world is for getting away from "religious persecution", to establish a place with "religious freedom under God".
The Pledge of Allegiance states "under God", again not Gods, meaning only one.
The Supreme Court building, highest court in the land, has the 10 Commandments.
Over 2000 yrs ago, Jesus was persecuted, and died for it.
Over the past 30 years, or even more, the ACLU, and some other minorities, have fought to stop all religious activities of Christians; and to change the basic purpose of why America was originally founded. Any changes as to why this country was founded, will not stand.
The words "liberal", "left", and "right" have become highly overused by the Media, and others, such as one answer here, to the point that Christian morals and values are on trial again, as they were over 2000 yrs ago.
According to National Polls, the majority of Americans say they are Christians; but the ACLU and others have gained so much, that they now speak out against the majority. They have gained through the courts, making laws against Christians, to pray anywhere they choose, or to worship God anywhere they choose. It will change.
Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.
In some time to come, Christians will begin voting in hugh numbers, changing laws, changing Senators and Representatives, who vote against them. The time is coming that the "laws", imposed by a minority of non-christians, will be changed.
Parents, family members, others, who greatly oppose doing away with prayer anywhere, will be heard. It has already started.
It's a sad day when companies say "don't say Merry Christmas" at work, say "Happy Holidays"... you might offend someone.
There is a great problem when you continue to offend the majority, in the name of "law", by the ACLU and others. Laws will be changed in some time to come, to reflect the majority of Americans' beliefs in Christianity.
In the meantime, don't let up, don't "give in" to those who try telling you that
"you can't do this anymore". Their time will come.
History is a study of "cycles"; with changes made when the majority of Americans have finally had enough.

Hi, SSchultz,
I tried rating your post, as a great post, with great comments. However, I got the "you must wait before spreading around more ratings" popup.
I will try again later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,

Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.

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What about those kids who attend public school and who are not christians?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
I agree completely with your post and comments.
I am a Christian.
The original Mayflower Pact contains the words "God" (not Gods), and says the reason for establishing a new world is for getting away from "religious persecution", to establish a place with "religious freedom under God".
The Pledge of Allegiance states "under God", again not Gods, meaning only one.
The Supreme Court building, highest court in the land, has the 10 Commandments.
Over 2000 yrs ago, Jesus was persecuted, and died for it.
Over the past 30 years, or even more, the ACLU, and some other minorities, have fought to stop all religious activities of Christians; and to change the basic purpose of why America was originally founded. Any changes as to why this country was founded, will not stand.
The words "liberal", "left", and "right" have become highly overused by the Media, and others, such as one answer here, to the point that Christian morals and values are on trial again, as they were over 2000 yrs ago.
According to National Polls, the majority of Americans say they are Christians; but the ACLU and others have gained so much, that they now speak out against the majority. They have gained through the courts, making laws against Christians, to pray anywhere they choose, or to worship God anywhere they choose. It will change.
Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.
In some time to come, Christians will begin voting in hugh numbers, changing laws, changing Senators and Representatives, who vote against them. The time is coming that the "laws", imposed by a minority of non-christians, will be changed.
Parents, family members, others, who greatly oppose doing away with prayer anywhere, will be heard. It has already started.
It's a sad day when companies say "don't say Merry Christmas" at work, say "Happy Holidays".....you might offend someone.
There is a great problem when you continue to offend the majority, in the name of "law", by the ACLU and others. Laws will be changed in some time to come, to reflect the majority of Americans' beliefs in Christianity.
In the meantime, don't let up, don't "give in" to those who try telling you that
"you can't do this anymore". Their time will come.
History is a study of "cycles"; with changes made when the majority of Americans have finally had enough.

---

I wonder if you realize how contradictory and hypocritical this diatribe is? You start with talking about how the Pilgrims sought religious freedom. From there you go on to imply religious freedon is OK as long as you're a christian.

the ACLU is about upholding the Constitution NOT about presecuting religion. They are against the use of publicly owned facilities used to promote a SPECIFIC religion. Thjis is because of the separation of church and state mandated by the Constitution.

This display of religious bigotry is VERY offensive. You talk about "offending the majority", but you care nothing about offending the minority. That is bigotry!

You talk about "Christian morals and values are on trial". But where did those morals and values come from? They come from the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments. Why do you think its called the Judeo-Christian ethic? But you leave that part out. More bigotry!

If we have religious freedom (and we do) that means EVERYONE should have the right to worship they way they want. Jews, Moslems, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Druids, Wiccans etc. You cannot have religious freedom if you suppress ANY religion. By allowing a public entity, like a school or government building, to promote one religion over another is an affront to religious freedom and should be fought. Either EVERY religion needs to be represented or none. That is the stance of the ACLU and should be the stance of EVERY American who believes (as I do) in the principles this country was founded on!

Scott<>

I can't believe that I just read your bigoted myopic tirade.

Do you see everything in such black and white terms??

As Scott rightly said this is all down to your constitution separating church from state, get used to it. This kind of thing has been happening in the UK for years, but nobody pays it much attention any more.

I will not dissaprove of anyone's opinion here, as we all have a right to think of this subject as we wish and to save my sanity I intend to stay neutral, but have a few ideas (mine only).
Don't intend to be wishy-washy on this thread, but religious debates boggle me.

I believe each of us has a right to celebrate a religion if needed, and that religion and politics should not dictate what one does at home or at the workplace. In schools there should be a choice as the students are our future decision makers and need the experience of all thoughts and religious ideas to grow and find a way to get along, so why not give them the choice, instead of parents forcing their ideals down their throats. This planet is everyone's home. Now, should colors, books about christmas, and christmas decorations be banned everywhere?? "the season to be jolly" has been so commercialized that I don't even enjoy it anymore - that's my choice, but I don't mind others around me enjoying it. This has been a controversial issue for centuries, but - Gosh, lets grow up.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_1.gif

Your answer made me look at your location. Part of this has to do with American values that you may not fully understand.

I'm sorry Chery, but I have to disagree with some of your points, though I agree with others.

The key disagreement centers around bigotry. My Dictionary defines bigot as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices". Bigotry leads to hatred. I have no problem in anyone following the Christian religion (or Moslem, Hindu or whatever). It is when someone tries to tell me that my following a different religion is wrong that I balk. And that's what Fred has done here. I have long supported the fact that people are entitled to their opinions, but I draw the line on opinions that have no basis in fact and that promote intolerance and/or hatred against others.

Like you, I generally shy away from religious debates because they tend to be a no win situation. But when someone is as bigoted and hypocritical as has been displayed here I feel compelled to comment.

As for school children being given a choice, I agree with the American Founding Fathers about keeping church and state separate. Having a state religion or having government promote a certain religion leads to persecution. On the other hand, I believe in the power and pursuit of knowledge. I am not averse to the teaching of ALL religions as long as they all are represented. And that is the problem because it would be almost impossible for schools to cover them all. So it would be better for that to be handled in the home.

And that is the other point that people from outside of America (and many Americans) seem to miss. The problem is not the display of religious icons or other trapings of religion. The problem is WHERE its displayed. As I said, there is no problem with having Santa Claus in malls, putting up Xmas trees and other holiday decorations as long as they are on PRIVATELY owned properties. The objection is SOLELY to the use of public/government facilities for these displays and the objection is SOLELY related to the mandates of the US Constitution not to any prejudice for or against a particular religion.

Scott<>

Dear Scott, thanks for coming to my defense, but my dad was a soldier in the US Army, my stepdad also, and my ex-husband. As a child, going to Department of Defense schools, I prayed and pledged allegiance just like all other fellow students - it never bothered us, it bothered our parents which we did not understand then, but do now and it would have been better for parents to let us make up our own minds. I had a german mother, and that's why I stayed here to take care of her while she was sick. Now I'm stuck (cancer and other illnesses) in a country that has schools run by nuns and have a political faction called CDU (Christian Democratic Union):eek: , - I still feel that Religion and Politics have no right to combine and dictate to people on what to believe or what is politcally correct. The reason I stay (for the most part) out of religious debates is that I was raped by a priest, and the media is full of priests doing things to young boys that is irreparable psychologically, and don't believe any human who sins has the right to tell me what the scriptures of any religion state and is 'false' christianity to me. I'm a big girl and can make up my own mind as to what to believe - and I believe in human values and the ability to interpret the will of religions teaching goodness and love towards one another. I was babtised a Lutheran which teaches subversion of women, so I stepped out of the church and don't pay church taxes which exist here. This is also why I did not have my child babtised and gave her the option to choose the religion (if any) to believe and follow. She had to go to a german school for a few years, and they actually graded you on your 'religion class' on the report cards - which I thought was wrong and took her out and put her into an 'ethics' class, because here you had three choices, catholic, protestant, and ethics. I had a 'wild hair' one day and told them that I'd prefer a Jewish class - you should have seen the reaction. She is still an agnostic and doing quite well in her life without being told by a human what 'God' wants her do do. We believe in being good a kind to people of all denominations unless they give us reason not to be. I am just as afraid of terrorists and fanatics as the next person, but don't put all in one barrell. The history of religious wars and Spanish Inquisition in the past, and the on-going religious wars today are enough to make me really sick of it all. I also lived in the south, my daughter was born in Georgia, and experienced all the fire and brimstone teachings; have had Jahova Witness friends; Mormon and Jewish friends; and religion was one thing we discussed out of couriosity, but not argued about. People immigrated to the US to escape persecution of their convictions and not have other's values forced down their throats and wanted freedom of religion and speech, etc, but look where it's going? There are may groups and organizations who's main function is to help others but also teach morals and religion which is just fine, as long as they don't push it too far to those who don't want anything to do with it. Isn't that the basic freedom initially escaped to? - and now, just because it's not agreed to by some who are powerful enough to make changes, the same thing that was run from is beginning to grow and fester all over again. That's why I said what I said about 'growing up' in my last post. So, again, if people need a religion as something to use as a crutch, that's fine, just don't force others to follow if they don't want to, and stop killing people over it! Because if there is a God, I'm sure that's not what 'he' wanted humankind to to. Another reason to 'grow up' after the novelty of the pretty lights (in any religion) get old, you realize most of it is commercialism anyway, and this is something we can give our kids credit to learn to realize themselves without the church or politicians getting involved. Ok, getting off my soapbox now, hope I did not offend anyone as it's not my intention, just my opinion. Peace! - too bad my smiley did not work here.. :D http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_12_4.gif

Hi Chery,
First, let me applaud you for your bravery in talking about some of the trials you have experienced. Second, let me applaud you for what you have said here. I couldn't agree more with it.

I am jewish, but not a practicing one. I don't really believe in organized religion. In my opinion religion is a construction of mankind to explain certain mysteries. Its also a crutch mankind developed to allow it to deal with things like death, disasters, and other evils.

What I believe in is ethics. I believe in the Judeo-Christian ethic. I believe in the golden rule and I believe that everyone has the right to do what they want up to, but not including interfering with someone else's right to do the same.

My daughter is currently "trying to find herself". She is going to temple and to a church. I have supported her in this because she has the right to make her own decisions.

Scott<>

Agree with your values.

I tried to rate, but got the 'spread it' message again.
I'm sure we are not the only ones who feel this way, but it's a shame that they cannot for some reason express their views. This is a very sensitive subject, but we should all be free to express our feelings, as long as we don't harm anyone else in doing so - Also right about the 'crutch' - and some are better than drugs and alcohol and crime. I do respect the need for emotional stability for everyone and can relate with their choices, to me Ethics come first.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_3_35.gifFound a new one, he's cute!

With all of the X-Mas debates and being afraid to "step on anyone else's toes"... Why is it OK to ban speaking about god and X-mas in schools and telling our kids not to use red/green colors. But... it is totally acceptable to have pictures of witches etc and black/orange colors used in schools? What morals are we teaching our kids? People tend to go along with the halloween thing because it's fun and candy is involved. Look at the true meanings.

I love this country and hope (not certain it will) stay the same. Am I conservative... yes, but I love what our country was founded on. Does this mean we cannot change and adopt new ideas or ways of life. No! What it does mean is this country was founded with certain beliefs. Beliefs that were so strong that we made a constitution, which includes being fair to all people, but not to the point where we destroy our beautiful country because we don't want ot piss off anyone. If we continue on our current path, what will the US look like in 10-20 years? I hope being PC does not destroy our country. I hope my children and their children will be able to have the same beliefs as our fore-fathers.

To those coming to the US: Don't like it here or feel offended. You think that coming to the US means you have the same rights as all americans. Yes, you do. BUT I don't think it should be to the degree that you change our country... send me your phone number... I'll meet you and help you get on the nearest plane to another country (I'll even pay for the flight) Shoot, maybe can start a campaign, everyone loves to protest. Let's start a "go back to wherever you came from movement" Let's think about this for a second... If it was so great where you came from... why did you leave? Where in the world can you go where you have the freedom's and liberty's available to you in the states? (also the ability to slam our government and any group because we get a bug up our butt. Just be careful where you pick as they tend to kill extremests!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chery

but we should all be free to express our feelings, as long as we don't harm anyone else in doing so

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Chery,
Exactly! But opinions that are bigoted or intolerant DO harm people. They promote hatred and interfere with people's freedoms.

Scott<>

Some good points Cralmic. It does seem hypocritical to allow Halloween celebrations and not Xmas. However, even though Halloween does have it origins in religion, it has moved far away from them and has become very much a secular and fun celebration. Christmas, however commercialized and secular it gets still can't get far enough away from what it is, a celebration of the birth of Christ. So while I see your point, I also see enough of a difference to not make a big deal out of it.

One of the greatest strengths of this country is our freedoms. Its also one of our greatest weaknesses as well. Our enemies have often used our freedoms against us. But is the answer limiting those freedoms? For the most part I have to say no.

Scott<>

Hi,
In reply to the "nobody pays much attention to it anymore" by Curlyben, is just the type of thing that is happening to America. If left alone, changes eventually come to be accepted, unnoticed, until someone finally realizes that all changes are not good.
Removing the Ten Commandments stones, plaques, and statues from Court House lawn in many states, particularly in TN, has caused quite an uproar from the majority living in that area.
The main points here about the ACLU is that freedom of Worship is being taken away from the majority, in favor of the minority.
ScottGem's comments are normal, and he makes some good points, but still, the problem for the Majority still exists.
The Basic Fundament Right of Christians, guaranteed by our fore-fathers, is being taken away by the ACLU and other minority organizations. This is a fact!
And, it's what this debate is.

Fortunately, Tyson Food Company, largest meat producer in the world, has developed a system of Chaplains, Ministers, etc, for talking with employees, helping with employee personal problems, etc. Prayer is allowed inside this company, at certain times, certain gathering places. Their productivity has increased, and their profits are increasing, due to happier employees.

This great company's ideas are beginning to spread to other companies and corporations. Other corporations are now looking at their own policies and changes are beginning. They realize the importance of prayer, talking with ministers, and leads to their bottom line, more profit.
Everyone will begin to see some changes made in laws, upholding Christians' rights, because it's already started.

What I meant by "nobody pays attention" is that the government may come out with all these hair brained ideas which are then ignored by the general population.

The best one at the moment is the ban on smoking in pubs and fox hunting.
The policy has been so badly thought that there are MASSIVE loop holes which are being used to keep the status quo as it was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

ScottGem's comments are normal, and he makes some good points, but still, the problem for the Majority still exists.
The Basic Fundament Right of Christians, guaranteed by our fore-fathers, is being taken away by the ACLU and other minority organizations. This is a fact!
And, it's what this debate is.

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First, please define what you mean by my comments being "normal".

Second, There is no such thing as a "basic right of Christians" guaranteed by our forefathers or anyone else. Please provide some proof of that or retract it. What there is is a basic right of all americans to worship as they please. That's what religious freedom means. To say any one group has these rights is bigoted, intolerant and insensitive.

As for the ACLU or anyone taking away these rights, I again ask you to prove it. In my experience the ACLU is not trying to take anyone rights away, they are all about preserving the rights guaranteed by our constitution. Please don't state something as fact unless you can provide proof of the facts.

Scott<>

Hi,
I am so sorry to read about your dis-belief, and non-practice of religion, ScottGem. You have some very good qualities you allude to, for which really make you stand out as a caring person for your daughter.
Peace of mind, good feelings about yourself and others, come from believing in God. Some, like you, find these same feelings about themselves from other sources or ideas.
Debate is endless over Religion and Politics, and many things come out in them.
I truly hope you find faith eventually, in some form or other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
I am so sorry to read about your dis-belief, and non-practice of religion, ScottGem. You have some very good qualities you allude to, for which really make you stand out as a caring person for your daughter.
Peace of mind, good feelings about yourself and others, come from believing in God. Some, like you, find these same feelings about themselves from other sources or ideas.
Debate is endless over Religion and Politics, and many things come out in them.
I truly hope you find faith eventually, in some form or other.

---

Fred,
This is definitely an improvement over some of the other notes of intolerance you have posted.

I have seen many people, especially clergy, say that you find God in your heart and within yourself. If that is true, and I believe it is, then organized religion is just a way for people to find what is in themselves. For my part feel I have already found it. One does not need to practice organized religion (and notice the qualification about ORGANIZED) to follow the judeo-christian ethic that is the basis of the major religions. As long as I practice those ethics, then it should not matter that I practice the rites, rituals and trappings of organized religion.

As you say, some people find these things through a belief in God, others through different sources. To me it matters not how they find them, but that they DO find them. I judge people by how they act and behave, NOT by how they worship.

While I appreciate the sincerity in your regret about my non practice of religion, you have no need to hope that I find faith. Because I have found my own form of it. My faith is in the goodness of man. My faith is in man's ability to exercise their free will to perform acts of kindness, of heroism, of altruism, to do the right thing by their fellow man. That is what I "worship".

Scott<>

This is much better then your other notes of intolerance.

Hi,
It is the duty of every Christian to try leading others into believing in, and accepting God. That is why I truly hope you find belief and can come to prayer, attending some religious group of your choice.
I do agree with you on "not judging" anyone, in regards to if they practice any religious faith, say in church, etc, or not.
If anyone is interested, a bill is before Congress in regards to Workplace Practices in Religious matters, hopefully allowing religious employees time off for their religious beliefs, etc. here is a link.

http://www.stonescryout.org/archives...lation_to.html

Of course, the first rejections were from the ACLU and homosexual groups!
This was to be expected.
"Christians' Rights" maybe should have been worded as "Religious Rights", which were the reasons for founding the New World.
Religious Rights are being taken away; no question about that, whether one views it a "change for the better", or whatever.

Hello again,

Scott, you are correct in some of your statements... most people see the differences with the holidays etc. Keeping them separate and in perspective is impoortant. Unfortunately not all people can do this. I am raising my children to believe in god, fear the crap out of him... but from a respect point of view. In a nut shell, kids today and even young adults are being misled. I am a Lutheran and believe in god. I am also open mided enough to believe that if people have "A" faith that they believe in and (here's the important part) PRACTICE it then their choice is exactly that... their choice.

I have been in sales most of my life and it is a good profession, yet like and position if abused can hurt people. People believe in you and what you say. When speaking to masses in regards to a holiday and or for any purpose; whether it be for a product, religion, mental well being or whatever reason you have to be careful. My point is by commercializing the crap out of holidays and creating a new reason for a card manufacturer to design a new card and place another day on the calendar to celebrate we set OURSELVES up for trouble. We start losing sight of WHY we are doing what we are doing and the true meanings of the holidays. Sometimes I think we just don't like being told what we have to do. Maybe it's a childhood issue? Whatever. Rebellion at it's best?

Again... my point here is celebrate the holidays for what they are and what they truly mean. I do not generally share intimate parts of my life with people that I do not know, but I am teaching my kids some life long values to live by. We started a X-Mas practice a few years back where my wife and I have certain toys or things we want our kids to have. We make certain they receive these gifts. We also have selected presents, which are still very nice and they are allowed to open the night before X-Mas. Before the boys open these gifts they are to select one, which we give to someone less fortunate.
I also have taken them into neighborhoods where people are not as fortunate. We have donated certain belongings and furniture etc. I always tel them not to stare and to be polite and respect other people because we as a society need more of this. We always talk about what we saw while making donations so my boys know "things in life" do not just appear. Young adults/kids todau see what Mom and Dad have and think they should have it tomorrow. My wife and I started the same way as most people... we did not have two nickles to rub between us. We both worked until we started having kids then we both agreed for her to be a stay at home Mom. It was a difficult decision, but one well worth it.

I have done very well for myself and am self made, but grounded. I have a nice home and have (like many people) worked my butt off. My Mom raised myself and my 3 siblings on 8$ an hour so I will never forget those days. Why will I never forget? Because we were poor and I did not know it. I remember drinking milk because it was left out on the counter and we could not afford to throw it away. Mainly I remember the love we had and still have.

My Mom re-married and I could not have asked for a better step-dad. He has truly been awesome and an inspiration in my life. One of the threads I read was about being molested/raped... this is very difficult. I too have seen too much of this. I had a priest try to molest my younger brother and I. My wife had been molested by her father. A close friend of mine had been molested by her father. My biological father abused us kids. A girlfriend I had in college was abused by her father by grabbing her fingers with a pair of pliers and squeezing. I also have 3 cousins which are gay.

Folks, these are challenging times no matter who you are. To the lady that had been raped... my heart goes out to you. Please find a way to get through it. I had issues with the church because of my encounters, but ultimatley I had to come to grips with it and move on. Shawshank Redemption movie... "get busy living or get busy dying". Life is too short to hold baggage, I am not saying it is easy. Hold strong, you sound like a wonderful lady. Get your daughter, research several churches, find the right one and GO.

I have gotten way off base, but the bottom line is enjoy the holidays for what they are and not for what we believe they are for. Love your kids, family etc... a lot!

Tell someone today that you love them.
Tell someone today that you appreciate them.
Tell someone today that you believe in them.
Tell someone today that they inspire you.
Tell someone today that you're having a great day when you're not.

Sometime's we start believing in things so much that we truly believe it. Moral: Don't start believing in your own bull****. Don't manifest it change It! Stop feeding what it is you are feeding. Redirect your energy. You and the people around you will be happier for it.

Your last inspiring words on how to live life are very true to how I feel:

Quote:

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Tell someone today that you love them.
Tell someone today that you appreciate them.
Tell someone today that you believe in them.
Tell someone today that they inspire you.
Tell someone today that you're having a great day when you're not.

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We should all be positive, and be kind and complimenting, especially to those you love.
I've gotten over that rape as it happened over 40 years ago, and I help others with their problems now to include alcohol and drug abuse as well - and they also have underlying factors. Every action has a reaction, even if it's years later, so yes - the problems should be worked on and we should go on with our lives. It's the whole world which needs to act like a family at present and the disputes and wars stopped, but 'the powers that be' will not do so, it's not financially feasible.

Welcome to the forum, and I for one hope you stay on - it's a mixed 'family' with good and bad 'kids', but nonetheless one of the best forums.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_11.gif

It's the whole world which needs to act like a family at present and the disputes and wars stopped, but 'the powers that be' will not do so, it's not financially feasible.

Man is this another issue. There is so much useless hatred. This is not something you control on a global basis, but has to start with how each of us address and treats each other, which in turn will be global. Problem is in parts of the world, they see violence as a way of life. We go to a job every day and they for centuries have fought each other. A cycle not quickly changed. Barbaric to say the least, but it is their way of life and passed down through generations. The Iraq thing is a mess. I believe in the support, weapons of mass Destruction... I believe at one time there was and maybe still is just hid well or moved to adjacent country. Whatever. It's sad... these people need to have a different view of the world and see how it should be. I just wish we would stop being the world's police. We help most everybody, at times when they don't need or want it. We are also kicked all of the time and our military folks are awesome and need supported. Period. For the world to see the impact we make, sometimes I think we should just bring everyone home and stop paying/funding all of the coutries we support in the world. Maybe, just maybe we would be respected for what we do. American's pay so much for taxes and I never complain about it. EXCEPT when someone is complaining about the USA with a mouth full of food provided by the USA. I am a third generation German to the US and my ancestors loved the US when they initially came here. I have heard stories of their lives and how they appreciated coming to the states. Anyone is welcome here as long as they respect our history our beliefs and understand they are also free to vote and exercise their beliefs.

Hey, SSchultz0956,
Joy to the World, Merry Christmas, and Happy Hanuka!
Today, Walmart and Target announced a reversal of their decision not to display signs of "Christmas" in their stores.
Previously, Walmart made the decision not to display signs with the words "Merry Christmas" or "Christmas" in their stores. Soon after, Catholics and other groups who believe in Christ announced they would boycott Walmart for the remainder of the year. Walmart didn't want to offend anyone with "Christmas" signs. Well, guess what? They did offend those who believe in Christ and action was taken.
Today, both stores will display the signs as usual during this season.
Christmas is a celebration of Christ. Without Christ, there is no Christmas.
Stand back, ACLU, be prepared for some tough fights ahead!
It's just beginning.

Not much more to be said!

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
It is the duty of every Christian to try leading others into believing in, and accepting God. That is why I truly hope you find belief and can come to prayer, attending some religious group of your choice.
I do agree with you on "not judging" anyone, in regards to if they practice any religious faith, say in church, etc, or not.
If anyone is interested, a bill is before Congress in regards to Workplace Practices in Religious matters, hopefully allowing religious employees time off for their religious beliefs, etc., here is a link.

http://www.stonescryout.org/archives...lation_to.html

Of course, the first rejections were from the ACLU and homosexual groups!
This was to be expected.
"Christians' Rights" maybe should have been worded as "Religious Rights", which were the reasons for founding the New World.
Religious Rights are being taken away; no question about that, whether one views it a "change for the better", or whatever.

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I do appreciate that you changed christian Rights to Religious Rights. There is NO maybe about it. However, one of the paradoxes of the colonization of the Americas is that while several groups did come here for relgious freedom, they did not want to extend that freedom to others. The Puritans in particular were very intolerant of other relegions. Its one of the reasons that the Founding Fathers were so adamant about separation of Church and State.

I know there is biblical basis for your statement "It is the duty of every Christian to try leading others into believing in, and accepting God." However, I do not believe that every Christian sect follows that particular teaching. And frankly, I find it extremely offensive. I do not believe that anyone has the right to even suggest that my feelings about God and religion are such that I need to be saved, converted or whatever. I would NEVER presume to tell anyone (not even my own daughter as I indicated previously) how they should feel about this. A great deal of harm has been done in the name of this particular teaching (i.e. the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition).

When I was growing up I attended temple at the Brotherhood Synagogue in Greenwich Village (NYC). This synagogue shared the facility with a church (Episcopal as I recall, but I may be wrong on that). Sabbath services were performed on Saturdays and Church services on Sundays. There was true brotherhood and tolerance between the two congregations who often shared other events. That's the way things should be. The church where my daughter goes has put no pressure on her to convert. All they have done is teach their way so she can make her own decisions.

As for that bill that you cited. The blame for that goes to the Supreme Court. I agree that Title VII sufficiently covers that. The Supreme Court weakened it. I recall a recent case where a Sikh sued and won under Title VII for the right to wear a turban on the job. So I think that Title VII already provides the protections this law purports to.

As for the ACLU, I think their objections have merit. There have been plenty of times that well meaning laws have been corrupted for evil purposes. And I can where this law has that potential. I think the ACLU action is not against the bill, but a call to tighten it up to prevent the possibility of abuse. I don't say the ACLU never goes overboard, but I do so that the ACLU ONLY concern is preserving civil liberties.

Finally, as for the Walmart and Target announcements I cheer them. I think our litigious society has caused people to bend over backwards not to offend. And that's what prompted their initial action. But, happily, sanity seems to have taken over there.

Scott<>

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Everyone will begin to see some changes made in laws, upholding Christians' rights, because it's already started.

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Will the same changes in laws uphold the rights of other religions?

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Peace of mind, good feelings about yourself and others, come from believing in God.

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That is a load of crap. Have you never met anyone who has peace of mind, good feelings about themselves and others, and did not believe in God? I've met plenty. I have also met people who believe in God who treat others like sh*t and feel so bad about themselves that they are alcoholics and commit adultery.

The ACLU is most likely the one most single biggest threat to American Freedom and the true republic that America is.

The desire that what is best for the majority of people even if it is not agreed on by a minority of speical interest groups is first very unamerican and next extremely dangerous, since it allows for the decay of society that we have seen very largely over the past years.

They attempts are not as much to actually prove legal principles, but to sue even when they know similar cases have been lost since the mere threat of law suit offen causes groups to give in for fear of large law suits.
Next if the groups don't give in, they will next be labeled as some form of bigoted group.

They care little for the real truths of the Constitution and the truth of its base on religion in the preamble.

No terrorist group coming from the middle east can do as much damage to our real American freedoms as this group can by filing law suit after law suit to try to use this fear to control american business and society. There idea of freedom will be where christians will have no freedom to do any religious activity in public ever.

My thoughts exactly.

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Originally Posted by fredg

Over the past 30 years, or even more, the ACLU, and some other minorities, have fought to stop all religious activities of Christians; and to change the basic purpose of why America was originally founded. Any changes as to why this country was founded, will not stand.

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America was never a "Christian nation," and it never will be. You need to review your history.

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The words "liberal", "left", and "right" have become highly overused by the Media, and others, such as one answer here, to the point that Christian morals and values are on trial again, as they were over 2000 yrs ago.

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Oh please. No one is trying to take away your freedom of worship. All we are trying to do is make sure that public education is not used to force Christianity upon others.

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According to National Polls, the majority of Americans say they are Christians; but the ACLU and others have gained so much, that they now speak out against the majority.

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Okay. For the last time: Democracy is not about the rule of the majority. That is "mob rule." Look it up. There's a big difference.

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Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.

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We're not trying to destroy Christianity. We're trying to destroy Theocracy.

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In some time to come, Christians will begin voting in hugh numbers, changing laws, changing Senators and Representatives, who vote against them. The time is coming that the "laws", imposed by a minority of non-christians, will be changed.

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Excellent! We'll form a great sister country to Iran.


On a side note, I am not a Christian (I used to be), but I do celebrate Christmas and Easter as secular holidays.

You'll notice there hasn't been any (serious) effort to prevent the _students_ from wearing religious objects to school. You're blowing this issue way out of proportion. Calm down. We athiests are generally happy if we are left alone.

psi42

Very, Very, well said.

Hi,
Fr Chuck has really hit the nail on the head, so to speak.
I applaude you. Your comments are so very, very true.

This is just so much anti-liberal garabge.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The ACLU is most likely the one most single biggest threat to American Freedom and the true republic that America is.

The desire that what is best for the majority of people even if it is not agreed on by a minority of speical interest groups is first very unamerican and next extremely dangerous, since it allows for the decay of society that we have seen very largely over the past years.

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The ACLU has often been over zealous in guarding civil liberties. But these statements are ridiculous and pure anti-liberal hogwash.

The contradiction of the second paragraph is amazing. The ACLU is trying to protect minority interests by not allowing any one group to have a preference.

Of course it doesn't surprise me that Fred would applaud this anti-liberal propaganda and misinformation as truth.

Scott<>

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

The ACLU has often been over zealous in guarding civil liberties. But these statements are ridiculous and pure anti-liberal hogwash.

The contradiction of the second paragraph is amazing. The ACLU is trying to protect minority interests by not allowing any one group to have a preference.

Of course it doesn't surprise me that Fred would applaud this anti-liberal propaganda and misinformation as truth.

Scott<>

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Hi,
ScottGem's post doesn't surprise me either. So what else is new?
Arguments concering the ACLU are ongoing, and even the term "over zealous" is only partial truth; only scratches the surface.
It all remains to be seen, with changes taking place at a faster pace; seriously questioning many laws passed as a result of them.

If anyone is really interested about all this "hogwash", then here is a link, containing other links to laws, cases, court rulings, ACLU activities, and is good information on where they stand:

http://stoptheaclu.com/

This link does contain some "amazing" information about "preferences".