How many of them have had active shooter incidents ?

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On MSNBC this weekend, Sheriff Paul Cairney of Argyle, Texas, described the process by which staff members can carry firearms in the school district. The Sheriff said that the staff at the school who choose to carry a firearm go through an intense round of interviews and training before they are allowed to carry on campus. The MSNBC host was flabbergasted at the practice and asked the Sheriff about concerns for the safety of the students in the school when there are firearms around.

The Sheriff said the practice is heavily restricted, but the “time to do nothing is over” when it comes to combating school shooters.

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To become a school marshal, those employees must undergo extensive active shooter and firearms training with the state. They must also undergo a mental health evaluation.
They receive a school marshal designation by the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement and must renew their license every two years by undergoing the same training and evaluation.
Outside of campuses in Keene and Argyle, signs warn visitors that there are staff members who are armed and are prepared to protect children.

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Texas Sheriff Explains: Teachers Carry Firear | The Daily Caller

Small towns have been known to do what they have to. It works for them and they have to depend on their own devices. Texas isn't the only state to allow teachers and school officials to carry firearms to class.

https://www.romper.com/p/what-states...proposal-19376

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Twenty-one states allow individual schools and universities to decide for themselves if they will permit teachers to carry concealed weapons in the classroom. There are only 11 states in the country that have laws which prohibit carrying handguns on school or university property...

There are only 11 states in the country that have laws which prohibit carrying handguns on school or university property.

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I am all for it. Something has to be done.

Did you read the text messages between the two brothers? The words they text to each other should never be necessary at their school.

Also what is wrong with one or two entrances into a school through a metal detector? You can have as many exits as you need per fire regulations. But only way in is through a metal detector. I am missing the complexity of solving this issue.

Oliver my first reaction to the Sandy Hook shooting was more cops around the schools, but I have come to realize that the community should be the ones to say what they want done, and how. As Tom points out many rural school here in Texas (And other states.) have had armed teachers, and administrators for a few years now, while in Chicago and big cities, they've had metal detectors for decades. So I guess for such a complex issue, I say listen to the locals. Sad the whole gun debate is about political agendas, and selling more guns, or banning all guns, but the solution is somewhere in between.

I can go for whatever works, and hope these bright ideas, and experiments don't get tested. What a world.

Tal I posted that school specifically because it details the training that the teachers have to go through to be permitted to carry in school. I am actually conflicted on this issue because teachers are for teaching . Israeli schools have armed guards outside school . But there are a couple things to consider. One is the chaos of an active shooting sight. The other one is a financial one ......liability .

Oliver I have been an advocate of restricted entrance points for a long time .....actually since the days of Joe Clark at Patterson High School in NJ . He put chains on the school doors to prevent drug dealers from gaining access .

I'm more into the conceal carry camp even in places that permit open carry (I can do both). If the bad guy spots you before you spot them.. they assume you are unarmed... open carry you might be marked as a threat by the bad guy before you even know they are there. Obviously there will be some teachers who would be so incompetent.. you don't want them to be armed, and why it should be voluntary, but the average teacher won't have that problem... and many of them might already own handguns, and be proficient in its use. Many probably already hold CC permits but can't carry at work now because of the law.

When I was in High School a lot of my teachers were bad hombre's you did not want to mess with (even some of the female teachers)....and I wasn't in the inner city or a bad area. Our entire grade was small enough you knew EVERYONE by name (was 180) But those were back when you actually got a good education before the free-fall compared to other countries..

Teachers weren't always wusses... I saw my late 60's gym teacher who was about 5'4" and probably 140 lbs wet ... take down one of the biggest kids in the school like nothing. Kid swung at the teacher after being confronted in the hall....bam bam two punchs the kid was out cold for the count, knocked out, saw it happen. Guy was one of the troops caught behind lines in Battle of the Bulge, he was also a boxing champ in his youth. second time was a teacher everyone referred to as lardass. He was maybe 5'8" and easily 300 lbs... and it was all around his waist and hips. Saw one of the other biggest kids in the school hit him so hard in the head it bounced off his shoulder. Right before he grabbed the kid around the throat and crotch lifted him over his head, and body slammed him into the concrete floor in a move that would have earned praise by professional wrestlers. Both these kids over 6 foot and damn good shape whom every kid feared getting on the wrong side of.

Those days are past, apparently long past listening to all the whining on facebook by supposed teachers....spines stopped being part of teachers physiques and character. At least the vocal ones.

I am just amazed that it's taking this long to protect our children. I agree with the kid that said we should have stopped this after Columbine. This doesn't make sense that we don't enact a solution. I live in Florida and everyone has a gun (but me). I don't have a problem with people owning guns. My partner has three or four of them. I do have a problem if we don't protect innocent people like school children or Pulse night goers. In Orlando where I live, every time there is a mass stupidity shooting, we relive that Pulse night all over again. I am sure Sandy Hook and other places are the same way. It just doesn't make sense.

Yes Oliver . You go into any other public building here in NY and you go through metal detectors at a minimum . Some of the NYC schools utilize them too. Schools should have at least the same priority as the court house .

There aren't enough metal detectors to protect everyone, a shooter can just wait across the street

yes they can ,but 'surprisingly 'they don't . There is no perfect solution because as you know ,evil exists and humans are imperfect .

Something in common was every one of these shooters was a known problem waiting to happen. Not the nice Class Valedictorian that Turned Carrie over a Latte someone at Starbucks got a teeny bit off.

This last case was a kid kicked out of school over violent behavior, there were in the ballpark of 37 times the police were called to his house about his behavior, no arrests... its clear he had antisocial tendencies... The FBI was SPECIFICALLY warned about him by name... not an ambiguous warning... nothing was done.

Then to top it off... it turns out there were FOUR armed Sheriff's Deputies stationed there working.. who sat outside waiting refusing to go in and doing nothing. Nothing was ever reported to the Feds by anyone that would turn up on a background check.

And you have idiots claiming it's the NRA's fault, anyone but the people who were actually there and who actually had involvement with this kid in any way shape or form, those people get a complete pass from them...I keep waiting for the same imbeciles to blame it on Bush.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Something in common was every one of these shooters was a known problem waiting to happen. Not the nice Class Valedictorian that Turned Carrie over a Latte someone at Starbucks got a teeny bit off.

This last case was a kid kicked out of school over violent behavior, there were in the ballpark of 37 times the police were called to his house about his behavior, no arrests... its clear he had antisocial tendencies... The FBI was SPECIFICALLY warned about him by name... not an ambiguous warning... nothing was done.

Then to top it off... it turns out there were FOUR armed Sheriff's Deputies stationed there working.. who sat outside waiting refusing to go in and doing nothing. Nothing was ever reported to the Feds by anyone that would turn up on a background check.

And you have idiots claiming it's the NRA's fault, anyone but the people who were actually there and who actually had involvement with this kid in any way shape or form, those people get a complete pass from them...I keep waiting for the same imbeciles to blame it on Bush.

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Or Obama! The NRA blamed it on dems and the media at their CPAC rally. I totally agree though the system and the protocols failed miserably. WTF?

Exactly. Everything that needed done from a procedures and legal aspect are already there in place. And has been for a long while. If you have incompetent BOOBS working for the Police, FBI and every other related entity now.. you will still have the same boobs fumbling the ball no matter what you do.

First I see civil lawsuits in the future of those 4 deputies... Second - If that Sheriff is an elected position like it is a lot of places... I see him unemployed next election he faces. He might make it as a Mall cop... I seriously doubt any credible law enforcement agency would want him around.

Their might even be other Lawsuits over reasons that still haven't come out yet.

meanwhile so far this year in Chi-town ;there has been a total of 365 shootings resulting in 63 killed . Almost all of them were from illegally owned hand guns .

turns out there were 4 law officers who hid outside while the massacre occurred .

https://nypost.com/2018/02/23/four-s...hool-shooting/

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Originally Posted by tomder55

turns out there were 4 law officers who hid outside while the massacre occurred .

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FOUR good guys with a gun vs. ONE deranged teenager. And who "won"?

they are not good guys ;they are cowards .The good guys were the teachers who put their bodies in between the shooter and the kids. The good guys was the JROTC student Peter Wang who before he was shot was holding the door so other students could flee. Other JROTC students shielded other students with Kevlar sheets normally used for marksmanship training .JROTC Alaina Petty and Martin Duque as well as Wang were awarded the JROTC metal for Heroism.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

they are not good guys ;they are cowards .The good guys were the teachers who put their bodies in between the shooter and the kids. The good guys was the JROTC student Peter Wang who before he was shot was holding the door so other students could flee. Other JROTC students shielded other students with Kevlar sheets normally used for marksmanship training .JROTC Alaina Petty and Martin Duque as well as Wang were awarded the JROTC metal for Heroism.

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And this demonstrates that training saves lives but how do you have cowards on a police force? It is no wonder people want guns to protect themselves, but it is an illusion

Clete.. its not an illusion... a LOT of gun owners stop criminals every day... the media is so pro criminal they almost NEVER report it. And Wondergirl... those 4 Deputies define what cowards are. 4 Trained law enforcement people who were NOT fresh out of the academy against one 19 year old snowflake punk... Police just like the Military are trained to work as teams... the punk wouldn't have stood a chance if they had done what they were paid to do. People might still have died, just not as many.

Someplace else there were people actually trying ot argue is wasn't the Deputies job to go after the shooter. Then why did they were Deputies uniforms and have Police issued gun if they weren't. You don't need armed law enforcement to play hall monitor for kids out of the classroom without a pass. And if it wasn't the job of the police.. then exactly who's job was it? It is anyplace else outside of that school.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Wondergirl... those 4 Deputies define what cowards are. 4 Trained law enforcement people who were NOT fresh out of the academy against one 19 year old snowflake punk... Police just like the Military are trained to work as teams... the punk wouldn't have stood a chance if they had done what they were paid to do. People might still have died, just not as many.

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If FOUR POLICE VETERANS, well trained and armed, cannot stop a "snowflake punk," then what? Maybe if assault weapons (intended to kill enemies in WAR) weren't available and if all the trails to the "snowflake punk" hadn't been shut down by authorities....

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If FOUR POLICE VETERANS, well trained and armed, cannot stop a "snowflake punk," then what? Maybe if assault weapons (intended to kill enemies in WAR) weren't available and if all the trails to the "snowflake punk" hadn't been shut down by authorities....

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They were cowards... who should be embarrassed to wear the uniform, carry the badge... and call themselves men.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

They were cowards... who should be embarrassed to wear the uniform, carry the badge... and call themselves men.

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And you want ordinary teachers to pack heat???? In all the chaos, students running and screaming -- how many students will die in the crossfire? And then the police show up and decide to shoot which person with a gun? And then, the next morning the school bell rings. Back to normal.

As stated already I am leaning against the idea.However I posted this to demonstrate that there are already school districts where it is happening . Where is the examples of teachers firing wildly in the chaos. Maybe it is the deterrence alone that is doing the job. Maybe if a shooter sees this ,he moves on to softer targets .
https://c1.legalinsurrection.com/wp-...95-620x424.png
maybe to places like this

http://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp...-courtesy-.jpg

Thank God we haven't had any incidents in those schools that have taken those extra precautions of training and arming their teachers. A guy with an AR-15 though, out guns a few people with handguns by a lot, and no doubt the Florida shooter knew of the deputies with guns at a school he had attended. He also had the element of surprise on his side giving him the distinct tactical advantage, despite all the drills and precautions of the school. Not defending the 4 deputies at all, but this kid was well prepared, knew his targets and terrain, and had an escape plan that worked.

I think metal detectors, and cameras, costly as they may be to local budgets, are in order as well to at least mitigate that surprise and unknown because lets face it knowing where a shooter is in real time is half the battle.

This fellow has been on the radar since he was 9 years old and nothing was done. That is what lead to this chain of events that has exposed the inadequacy of a system that has broken our false sense of security. The problem is inaction, a failure to properly address the FIRST red flag, and ignoring the rest that have been waving for a long time.

That seems to be a recurring theme with most of these shooters, they have a plan they execute perfectly, and the plan to prevent them from creating mayhem, death, and injury has plenty of holes in it. Let's start with the notion of how to stop a bad guy with a gun, and dismiss the ludicrous solution of good guys with guns. I feel the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is DON'T give him a gun.

That would require some EXTREME VETTING wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And you want ordinary teachers to pack heat???? In all the chaos, students running and screaming -- how many students will die in the crossfire? And then the police show up and decide to shoot which person with a gun? And then, the next morning the school bell rings. Back to normal.

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Why not.. a lot of teachers already own guns and know how to use them, some of them depending on how much the state respects the constitution, already have CC permits and probably already do carry outside of work.

Nobody is going to force the peaceniks into defending themselves or their kids... but they need to get out of the way of those who are willing to defend themselves and their kids.

Its already abundently clear... the loser snowflakes aren't to going to stop and think, well this one isn't armed so I'll let them live... they shoot them anyway.

At least they are sitting there waiting to be shot and leaving the kids open as well. At least they have a fighting chance. That's a LOT more than they have now. Particularly in cases like that when you pay cowards to pretend to play cop, then when the chips are down... they hide and save their own skins. Just a COUPLE teachers with a CC in that case would have saved a lot of lives.

I find it hard to believe that even MOST teachers today was spineless cowards afraid to defend themselves OR their kids.

When I was in school 80-90% is not more, of my teachers were fully capable of putting up a very respectable fight (including the women).. and would not have run. And I did NOT grow up in the inner city.

And I did see see two of them take down MUCH bigger kids, and heard of other cases that I wasn't there to see myself.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Thank God we haven't had any incidents in those schools that have taken those extra precautions of training and arming their teachers. A guy with an AR-15 though, out guns a few people with handguns by a lot, and no doubt the Florida shooter knew of the deputies with guns at a school he had attended. He also had the element of surprise on his side giving him the distinct tactical advantage, despite all the drills and precautions of the school. Not defending the 4 deputies at all, but this kid was well prepared, knew his targets and terrain, and had an escape plan that worked.

I think metal detectors, and cameras, costly as they may be to local budgets, are in order as well to at least mitigate that surprise and unknown because lets face it knowing where a shooter is in real time is half the battle.

This fellow has been on the radar since he was 9 years old and nothing was done. That is what lead to this chain of events that has exposed the inadequacy of a system that has broken our false sense of security. The problem is inaction, a failure to properly address the FIRST red flag, and ignoring the rest that have been waving for a long time.

That seems to be a recurring theme with most of these shooters, they have a plan they execute perfectly, and the plan to prevent them from creating mayhem, death, and injury has plenty of holes in it. Let's start with the notion of how to stop a bad guy with a gun, and dismiss the ludicrous solution of good guys with guns. I feel the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is DON'T give him a gun.

That would require some EXTREME VETTING wouldn't it?

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Metal Detectors are good... prevention is good. Being outgunned? I don't buy that so much because we aren't talking wide open space. And inside a school you aren't talking ANY long distance shots where the rifle has an advantage... in this sort of situation a pistol holds an advantage. You aren't talking about a TEAM of criminals, you are talking only one... and they don't have eyes in the back of their head.

The amount of training to be proficient with using a handgun isn't that significant. You can teach a fairly young teen to do it, we aren't talking training in Urban guerrilla warfare squad tactics. We are talking knowing how to shoot and hit a target at most 30 feet away. And know how to clean and maintain your weapon of choice.

Plus its voluntary, and those who are unwilling to defend themselves don't have to. But they should get out of the way of those who are.

any other pie in the sky thoughts ?

I gave the stats in Chi-town and similar stats can be found in other cities like Baltimore .This year so far 30 shooting deaths. 2017 ...342 total . Almost all of them done by shooters who did not legally purchase the gun ;mostly handguns ;not ARs . In fact ARs account for about 2 % of gun deaths and less than 1% of gun injuries .

When it comes down to it you cannot avoid the issue that the problem is the gun, there are just too many and as a result, you have these incidents. When there was a ban on assault weapons the number of these incidents declined, when the ban was lifted the incidence rose again. The statistics don't lie. The overall problem of gun deaths is a different problem. In an urban environment there is no reason to posses a long rifle so if people need these weapons for self defence, is this what they are used for?

The problem is it's too easy to get a hand gun, or any weapon legally as in this case, from systematic failures, and ILLEGALLY, a bigger problem. You can ban anything in a big city, but criminals just move outside the city limits, and get whatever they want.

Why are there so many illegal guns in Chicago? Easy answer just look at a map. 20 bucks gets you gas money and a motivation to drive a few miles in ANY direction, and buy me a gun for my illegal activities. Straw man purchases are common EVERYWHERE where laws are lax, and guns available. As I have said before Florida is NOTORIOUS for easy to get guns. Always has been and most New York criminals know that too. Background checks don't catch straw purchasers. Gun shows are also a BIG problem and Florida (And my home Texas) are BIG on their gun shows. It's big money.

I agree again Smoothy, those 4(?) deputies could have done much more than wait outside, to take away his tactical advantage his rifle gives him, but again until they find the sucker they have no such advantage and the fact remains he did his damage and dropped everything that identified him as a shooter and ran out with a crowd. That obviously was HIS plan.

Not only would those good guys with guns have to act quickly, but be on the spot, and that's the real unknown here. Even you have to admit this nut job was smart enough to know how to use the flaws and loopholes to his advantage and didn't stick around hunkered down to be confronted. This dude got the drop on EVERYBODY! And all bad guys have the advantage of knowing the set up, and NOT worried about obeying the rules or being afraid of a retired old ex-cop.

So why are we having problems with these mass shooters and other nations do not?

good luck trying to ban rifles and restricting the sale of guns nationwide . If you made ALL guns illegal the bad guys would still get them as easily as pot smokers get pot . It will be as easy as keeping illegal aliens out of the country . Focus of school safety . Focus on getting community policing back on the streets . (one thing Bubba got right)

Good luck trying to ban rifles and restricting the sale of guns nationwide .

Just ASSAULT rifles, and they have been banned before. I know lots of opposition to that for now, as well as common sense restrictions nationwide. I think I would rather deal with the fallout rather than the fatalities though to be quite honest. LOL, there is hell to pay either way!

If you made ALL guns illegal the bad guys would still get them as easily as pot smokers get pot . It will be as easy as keeping illegal aliens out of the country .

I will leave illegal aliens out for the moment as that's another issue, but if you remember I am a second amendments rights advocate and don't want ALL guns to be illegal but I guess my common sense gun control position hides that fact. Why do we forget the WELL REGULATED MILITIA part of our constitution.

Focus of school safety . Focus on getting community policing back on the streets . (one thing Bubba got right)

Sounds like a GREAT plan to me, count me in! I would just change school safety to PUBLIC safety, which of course would include schools, as well as churches, movie houses, and restaurants, parks, and malls. EVERYWHERE people and families conjugate.

Drive-by shootings are especially dangerous, and annoying. Yeah I am from the Chicagoland area originally!

Im going to throw my 2 cents worth out there and Im going to say I dont want any school teacher nor administrator carrying a deadly weapon on school grounds period.

I think there are alternatives that can do virtually the same thing without resorting to projectiles that can go through walls and hit the unintended. I think that a system of semiautomatic shotguns loaded with bean bag shells and placed in classrooms and in lounges and teacher only accessed areas would solve the probem. It gives teachers a defensive weapon and can stop a shooter in his / her tracks without haveing to worry about a bullet going astray. I want to see our children protected but I also realize that in active situations and with tight quarters you never know. So something like a bean bag load may knock a child out they have a much higher survival rate. Also we have many cases of suicide by cop. I dont want our schools to become a breeding ground for any such actions.

Here are some links if you dont know what Im talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j5x7MTFAEQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeRKm9ZsqtU

Non lethal ammo, I like the idea, but this is what we are up against.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qFSzuUm9-Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw2IV2XLFnQ

Carnage is a good word for what loony shooters do when they hunt humans.

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Why do we forget the WELL REGULATED MILITIA part of our constitution.

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You know Tal all of that phrase is forgotten and the focus is on the word abridged. I believe statements should be taken as a whole to gauge intent not picked apart, so this means that the expectation is that there be regulation, there be discipline and that action with guns is not individual but with combined purpose against a common enemy

And for protection against bears and gators and Bigfoot.

'The militia is the whole of the people.' [George Mason Founder who wrote the 2nd Amendment]

Mason combined, a portion of the Massachusetts’ Declaration of Rights stating that the people have a right “to keep and to bear arms” with Article 13 from Virginia’s Declaration of Rights concerning a well-regulated militia as the defense against a standing army. The idea that the militia is some government run organization that serves the government is preposterous .

But since you are parsing language what does

“shall not be infringed” mean ?

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Just ASSAULT rifles, and they have been banned before

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A law that cannot be shown to work, and which is only enforced on the law-abiding is an egregious infringement of freedom. What is an assault rifle ? Semi-automatic ? Most hunters prefer semi-automatic rifles like Remington R-15 or.750 Woodsmaster .The difference is that they look like hunter's guns, Do you want to ban them or only the semi-automatics that look like military rifles ?

The government IS the people, or should be, and the notion of bearing arms against OUR army is what's absurd, even though I have seen cops, and government regulated militias do some lowdown stuff, and screw things up in lousy fashion. We both have, but if we are to survive as a free nation, we cannot just interpret the rules in different ways to fit peoples fears or prejudices. Not when we have the right to change the law, and a process to accommodate the changes in a LAWFUL orderly way. That does not include small groups declaring themselves a militia, and being outside, or above that law. Indeed they are as subject to the laws as anyone, and should be treated as such when they break it. That's what due process is about. We argue in court, not in the backwoods, or behind barricades. That's the law too!

That's what abridged means you have the right to bear arms WITHIN the LAW. Not outside of it, or above it, or beside it. Anyone with a problem with it should take it to court. If you want to be a militia then abide by the rules! Bad things happen when you do not! That's the law.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

The problem is it's too easy to get a hand gun, or any weapon legally as in this case, from systematic failures, and ILLEGALLY, a bigger problem. You can ban anything in a big city, but criminals just move outside the city limits, and get whatever they want.

Why are there so many illegal guns in Chicago? Easy answer just look at a map. 20 bucks gets you gas money and a motivation to drive a few miles in ANY direction, and buy me a gun for my illegal activities. Straw man purchases are common EVERYWHERE where laws are lax, and guns available. As I have said before Florida is NOTORIOUS for easy to get guns. Always has been and most New York criminals know that too. Background checks don't catch straw purchasers. Gun shows are also a BIG problem and Florida (And my home Texas) are BIG on their gun shows. It's big money.

I agree again Smoothy, those 4(?) deputies could have done much more than wait outside, to take away his tactical advantage his rifle gives him, but again until they find the sucker they have no such advantage and the fact remains he did his damage and dropped everything that identified him as a shooter and ran out with a crowd. That obviously was HIS plan.

Not only would those good guys with guns have to act quickly, but be on the spot, and that's the real unknown here. Even you have to admit this nut job was smart enough to know how to use the flaws and loopholes to his advantage and didn't stick around hunkered down to be confronted. This dude got the drop on EVERYBODY! And all bad guys have the advantage of knowing the set up, and NOT worried about obeying the rules or being afraid of a retired old ex-cop.

So why are we having problems with these mass shooters and other nations do not?

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Because mentally disturbed Tide pod eaters are raised without discipline or much of an education (less than 1% would pass a college entrance exam outside the USA), and expect participation trophies for anything they attempt. Other places don't allow kids to grow up like that. They expect work, respect and accountability. Something the snowflake generation never learned having grown up being told they are special and entitled to everything while doing nothing in return.

it is infringed not abridged . INFRINGE as in ,act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on. 'Shall not infringe' means shall not act so as to limit or undermine .


translation .....the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be limited or undermined .

So it's legal to buy a tank, bazooka, or a heat seeking shoulder launched missile?