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Hello:
This remarkable occurrence deserves a new thread... I'm watching the Egyptian people on TV. I'm so happy for them.
Somebody smarter than me said it first, and I'm not going to say it right... They've earned their freedom. Let's see if they can keep it.
excon
Hello again:
Well, it looks like they'll have a little bread to fund their new government... Switzerland just froze Mubarak's accounts. They say he's got upwards of $50 BILLION stashed...
excon
They did not keep their secrets - the US will surely ask for their death penalty for treason!Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Here's hoping... but so far this looks like 1952 redux.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Your history is better than mine, but I assume that's when Nasser grabbed power... I also don't know what role we played in that affair, but I'll bet our hand was in it.
The question I have for you now, is what hand do we play THIS time? Smoothy already said that he'd support a democracy if the outcome met his approval. How much are we going to try to shape affairs? Should we? Should we keep on supporting the military? Does THAT support give us influence? If we influence their affairs, will the people like that? Will we be setting the WRONG course for our relationship over the next century.
I think how we act NOW, is going to make a BIG difference in the world.
excon
Quote:
How much are we going to try to shape affairs? Should we?
Since then the President has ramped up his public rhetoric hardening Mubarak's position. As late as last night Mubarak was saying he would not bow to foreign pressure ,and said he wanted to exit with dignity . I think the President's rhetoric yesterday afternoon was the key reason why Mubarak made the sudden reversal from what was being reported all day.Quote:
President Barack Obama said he personally told Egypt's Hosni Mubarak Friday night to take "concrete steps" to expand rights inside the Arab nation and refrain from violence against protesters
Read more: Obama tells Mubarak: Must take 'concrete steps' - The Buzz - TheState.com
I remember in 2005 Condi Rice was urging the Egyptian government to reform towards democracy and everyone including the President mocked the freedom agenda.
Me ;I'm in favor of it ;as I was last year when the democratic movement in Iran was crushed without any support from the free world . I'm in favor of it now ;as I was when the people of Lebanon threw off the yoke of Syrian and Hezbollah oppression. Now our President thinks he can work with the jackboots that crushed the Cedar Revolution.
I'm in favor of it ,when the Hondurans rose up and told their would-be Chavesta dictator that NO... he could not change the Constitution to give himself the Presidency for life. You said there was a coup when the democratic legislature defending the Constitution ousted the President ,saving their Constitution.
What do I think now.. We should support this coup that is apparently supported by the protesters in the street ;and hope they move towards a Constitutional Republic that respects all people's rights. I'll know that happens when the Copts can freely worship without fear .
No, he's asking him to "refrain from violence against protesters".Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Did we read the same article?Quote:
"Surely, there will be difficult days to come, but the United States will continue to stand up for the rights of the Egyptian people and work with their government in pursuit of a future that is more just, more free and more hopeful," Obama told reporters
Well they bought it... lock stock and barrel... for better or worse.
Lets just hope the Muslim brotherhood doesn't take over now... but then... thats what Obama has been secretly wishing for...
Because you think he's a secret muslim? LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Obama refuses to call them a terrorist Organization... and was actually wanting to talk to them about taking over.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
That was in the news... easy to Google that up.
What he actually is is anyone's guess... but he's certainly not a christian. At worst a muslim... more likely a skeptical agnostic.
No lose with him gone but now military in power, I wonder if they will give it back up, or just appoint a new leader theirself
Here is a Pew poll that IBD made a commentary on recently .
Among highlights from the Pew poll:
• 49% of Egyptians say Islam plays only a "small role" in public affairs under President Hosni Mubarak, while 95% prefer the religion play a "large role in politics."
• 84% favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim faith.
• 82% support stoning adulterers.
• 77% think thieves should have their hands cut off.
• 54% support a law segregating women from men in the workplace.
• 54% believe suicide bombings that kill civilians can be justified.
• Nearly half support the terrorist group Hamas.
• 30% have a favorable opinion of Hezbollah.
• 20% maintain positive views of al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden.
• 82% of Egyptians dislike the U.S. — the highest unfavorable rating among the 18 Muslim nations Pew surveyed.
Editorial: What Egyptians Really Want - Investors.com
We aren't talking Jeffersonianism here. I am all in favor of a nation that has self determinism . But if they chose to be enemies of liberty and freedom as defined by the thinkers of the enlightenment , then they will ultimately be our enemies.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yet, I didn't see ONE American flag being burned. If they hate us so much, you'da thunk they would have...
Course, supporting their brutal dictator for the last 30 years certainly hasn't endeared them to us. Earning the wrath of the people is one of the downsides of a policy like that. You know. Kind of like Iran.
This is either going to be real good for us or real bad. Me? I'm hoping the glass is half full. You? Not so much.
excon
The left here was praising the overthrow of the shaw in Iran... and it wasn't long after before they took hostages in the American Embassy there... while Jimmy Carter sat around with his thumb up his butt.
So just your standard middle eastern democracy then?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
When I see a democracy emerge I'll believe it. So far all I see is a popular revolt followed by a military coup. All I know for sure is that Field Marshal Mohammed Hussein Tantawi is acting Pharaoh .
What I don't know is to what extent the Brotherhood has infiltrated the military infrastructure.
Both the Shah and Mubarak were strong man dictators . They were no where's near as 'brutal' as what replaced the Shah. They were no where's near as brutal as Saddam Hussein ,Kim Jong il ;the cadres in China ,and I can go on and on.Quote:
Course, supporting their brutal dictator for the last 30 years certainly hasn't endeared them to us. Earning the wrath of the people is one of the downsides of a policy like that. You know. Kind of like Iran.
What I do know is that for 30 years Mubarak's military never crossed borders aggressively . What I do know is that he maintained and honored the negotiated peace treaty with Israel .
What I do know is that while he was in charge Egypt was an enemy of jihadistan ;and Egypt was an ally in the Cold War. Were we wrong for making an alliance with the Soviet Union to defeat a common enemy is WWII ?
I'm not sure the new Egypt will be an ally in peace . They could emerge as an enemy if the Brotherhood gains control.
Let's watch what develops before we assume that what emerges will be better for the people of Egypt or the world .
Well tom it seems one american might have learned the lessons of history.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
My bet is when the shouting dies down the Egyptians will be no better off. Bloodless coups rarely change anything long term
Clete , Make no mistake. I am all in favor of the people overthrowing tyranny. In the case of the US it worked out . But too often the French Revoltution becomes the template.
The popular talking point this morning is that Egypt could imitate the Turkish model under Tayyip Erdogan . I say that the jury is still out on that example .But so far he has appeared to incorporate an Islamic State with a democratic state .
In my view they could best start by changing the economy from a statist one where 35% of the workforce is employed by the state ,to the Turkish model where slightly more than 10% are government paid employees.
I agree with Obama when he said yesterday that the entrepreneurial spirit of the folks at Liberation Square needs to be set free.
Hi Tom we all hope for the Egyptian people that they can pull off a transition to an open democracy but it is a huge step from Egypt to Turkey and don't forget Turkey is drifting back towards Islamic restrictions. The yoke of Islamic extremism is hard to throw off.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You speak of privatisation, again a worthy aspiration but requiring much time to achieve There is nothing wrong with state owned enterprise they can flourish in an open democracy which my own nation has clearly demonstrated. Egypt will need to achieve a measure of demilitarisation. Don't forget it is still in the grip of the military which has provided its leaders for generations I would say if they achieved the Pakistani model they would be doing well.
Don't get caught up in Obama's aspirationalism, this is the only one where he has been part of the solution in some time. He despirately needed a win
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