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They do . I dispute that the availability of contraception is a right. But even if it were.. . The availability was not denied to her before Sebellius mandated that it be provided for "free". I certainly wouldn't expect it to be covered by the church if I or she worked for them.
This is just an absurd intollerable abuse of power by the President.
So women are slaves to men and reproduction?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
hmmmm 1st the fetus is a mass of disposable tissue .now reproduction =slavery.. I guess we can call that the banner statement of the progressive women's rights movement.
Women are women, do you deny their biological right to reproduce?Women have sold themselves into that slavery you see to enjoy other benefits, they go willingly excepting in situations of rape. And even seek the situation more than menQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Hi Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Ah, yes, this is the big question.
This directly relates to Locke's doctrine of rights that men exercised in a 'state of nature' before organised society existed to grant men these rights. In other words, 'natural rights'. Some people might argue that it is hard to see how these rights existed prior to there being an organized society to grant such rights.
Some people might also argue that the way 'natural rights' is being used is not actuallty descriptive, but is in fact prescriptive. In other words, it is a claim that men OUGHT to have these rights.
Tut
Women give sex to get love; men give love to get sex. N'est-ce pas?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Quite a jaded view. I professed the full devotion of my love before marriage and before sex. Perhaps mine is the minority view these days ; but sex is a further expression of that love... not some recreation .Quote:
Women give sex to get love; men give love to get sex. N'est-ce pas?
Recreational sex; now there's a thought. I wonder what the church thinks about that? Well we know don't we, it's called abstinance which coincidently is the same formula they have for limiting procreation
If I judge from the questions this site gets, my statements have merit. I'm hoping we get the worst-case (teen?) situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Hello again,
All I got to say is, every time I wack off, it's STRICTLY for procreation.
excon
Hello again,
The vaginal probe is still in play. I haven't heard what my right wing friends have to say about it. You don't still deny they're contemplating doing it, are you??
excon
Are there other cases where a medical procedure is preformed without diagnostic testing... especially when the procedure is surgury ?
I say this is much more humane than Planned Parenthood's practice of giving their "patients" a miscarriage pill to take at home so they can miscarriage that bloody "tissue mass" on their bed without any medical supervision... in case something goes wrong. Yet I don't hear the pro-abortion crowd getting their undies in a knot over that barbarism.
Hello tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I'm NOT pro-abortion. I AM pro-choice. Nonetheless, my undies DO get into a knot when ANY abortion happens. .
Happy? I suppose that ruins your viewpoint of a liberal who cheers every time a baby is aborted.
But, you're right in line with the wrong wingers. The purpose for sticking the vaginal probe all the way up inside a woman WITHOUT her consent, and WITHOUT a medical need is simply to PUNISH/RAPE women and to GUILT trip them in to conforming what old white men think they should do...
It's an INSULT to women. No, it's worse. It's an ASSAULT! It shows that the right wing thinks it knows BETTER than women.. Not only is it an insult, it's a LOSER in terms of the election... GO Rick Santorum.
excon
PS> (edited) Did I read correctly, that you think this is a pre-op DIAGNOSTIC procedure?? You don't really believe that... You're NOT that nutty.
An insult to women? Pish posh, there can be no greater insult than to the child that's been aborted out of convenience. Even if you don't like abortion you still view it wrong. I'm not picking on women, I''m defending children. Somebody has to.
And besides, Virginia Planned Parenthood already routinely performs an ultrasound before an abortion.
We can't have a "culture of life" now can we?Quote:
From a health perspective, these ultrasounds are critical. They detect the exact age of the fetus, which often dictates which type of abortion procedure the woman can receive. They can also spot potential complications that could impact the procedure, like ectopic pregnancies. In clinics that don’t have access to ultrasound technology, sometimes pelvic exams can be used as a substitute. But those are arguably just as invasive as the transvaginal ultrasounds pro-choice activists are decrying.
In other words, the real reason pro-choicers oppose the law isn’t because of the “invasiveness” or “creepiness” of ultrasounds. It can’t be it. Virginia Planned Parenthood clinics already include them in its abortion procedures.
And let’s be honest. The main reason pro-lifers support the Virginia ultrasound bill isn’t out of medical necessity — not if these scans are already standard operating procedure at clinics.
This fight, like virtually all abortion law fights, is about how much of a role religion and morality should play in regulating these procedures. Pro-choice activists seem to have no problem with ultrasounds, as long as they’re done for medical reasons. But the fact that ultrasounds tend to already be part of abortions isn’t enough for pro-life activists. They want the main purpose for the scans to be promoting the “culture of life.” The Virginia law would mandate doctors to display and describe the ultrasound to the patient. And the image could end up dissuading many women from going ahead with the abortion.
While the pro-lifers have been pretty open about their motives, the pro-choicers – whose motto used to be “safe, legal and rare” – haven’t been. If they want to oppose the bill in order to keep morality out of abortion laws, that’s fine. But the rape comparisons are fundamentally dishonest and insult the intelligence of the public they’re trying to win over.
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
No problem... Just understand EXACTLY what we're talking about here... It's an INTRAVAGINAL probe stuck all the way up inside a women for the purpose GUILT TRIPPING a woman who is seeking her constitutional rights...
It's NOT up to the state to influence and/or PUNISH women seeking their rights UNDER the law.. If the state wants to CHANGE the law, change it they should - IF they can.
I looked at the law in Virginia... I couldn't find the words "vaginal probe" in the law... The SECRET hidden in the law, is the PARTICULAR ultrasound the law calls for can ONLY be accomplished by INTRAVAGINAL probing.
excon
Oh come on ex, you just lost your argument when I showed that these ultrasounds are standard operating procedure before the abortionist performs an abortion. The ONLY difference is the abortionist doesn't want the woman to see what she's about to abort is alive.
Correct and I stick by that .It is a common practice as Steve has detailed.Quote:
Did I read correctly, that you think this is a pre-op DIAGNOSTIC procedure??
Let's do a survey. I never had that done when I KEPT the kid. Is that standard procedure in normal, uneventful pregnancies?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
No ;and there is no need to because a regular delivery is not surgery .
Edit.. what I want to know is why PP is not "raping " (Ex's words ) the women when they perform the procedure prior to an abortion ?
I didn't have it done with a normal delivery that turned into a c-section.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You know this is routine as part of an abortion procedure?Quote:
edit.. what I want to know is why PP is not "raping " (Ex's words ) the women when they perform the procedure prior to an abortion ?
That's what I said, so what's the problem with the law?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
What's the medical reason for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I just looked at the PP web site. There is no mention of this being done before an abortion.
According to the link provided ,this was on the VIRGINIA PP phone message :
“Patients who have a surgical abortion generally come in for two appointments. At the first visit we do a health assessment, perform all the necessary lab work, and do an ultrasound. This visit generally takes about an hour. At the second visit, the procedure takes place. This visit takes about an hour as well. For out of town patients for whom it would be difficult to make two trips to our office, we're able to schedule both the initial appointment and the procedure on the same day.
Medical abortions generally require three visits. At the first visit, we do a health assessment, perform all the necessary lab work, and do an ultrasound. This visit takes about an hour. At the second visit, the physician gives the first pill and directions for taking two more pills at home. The third visit is required during which you will have an exam and another ultrasound.”
Besides all there has been a whole lot of misinformation about this bill..
1. It does NOT specify an invasive ultrasound . It does not recommend which one to use.
2. The women is not FORCED to view the results . She can opt out with a written waiver (she still has that CHOICE thingy)
Quote:
B. Except in the case of a medical emergency, at least 2 hours before the performance of an abortion a qualified medical professional trained in sonography and working under the direct supervision of a physician licensed in the Commonwealth shall perform fetal ultrasound imaging and auscultation of fetal heart tone services on the patient undergoing the abortion for the purpose of determining gestational age. The ultrasound image shall be made pursuant to standard medical practice in the community, contain the dimensions of the fetus, and accurately portray the presence of external members and internal organs of the fetus, if present or viewable. Determination of gestational age shall be based upon measurement of the fetus in a manner consistent with standard medical practice in the community in determining gestational age. When only the gestational sac is visible during ultrasound imaging, gestational age may be based upon measurement of the gestational sac. A print of the ultrasound image shall be made to document the measurements that have been taken to determine the gestational age of the fetus.
C. The qualified medical professional performing fetal ultrasound imaging pursuant to subsection B shall offer the woman an opportunity to view and receive a printed copy of the ultrasound image and hear auscultation of fetal heart tone and shall obtain from the woman written certification that this opportunity was offered and whether it was accepted. A printed copy of the ultrasound image shall be maintained in the woman's medical record at the facility where the abortion is to be performed for the longer of (I) seven years or (ii) the extent required by applicable federal or state law.
It sounds like an extra procedure done internally (vs. only an external ultrasound) to determine the fetus's age.
From VA Del. David Englin's office:
… only an invasive transvaginal probe ultrasound can effectively determine gestation age during much of the first trimester, which is when most abortions occur. Englin offered an amendment to require the pregnant woman's consent prior to subjecting her to a vaginal penetration ultrasound, but House Republicans rejected the amendment by a vote of 64 to 34.
Englin, who represents parts of Arlington and Alexandria, issued a statement in response to the bill's passage:
This bill will require many women in Virginia to undergo vaginal penetration with an ultrasound probe against their consent in order to exercise their constitutional right to an abortion, even for nonsurgical, noninvasive, pharmaceutical abortions.
That is just not so.
Ultrasound Sonogram Scans week by week first trimester month 1 2 3 months weeks 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 early scan - Baby2seeQuote:
Transabdominal ultrasound cannot reliably diagnose pregnancies that are less than 6 weeks gestation. Transvaginal ultrasound, by contrast, can detect pregnancies earlier, at approximately 4 ½ to 5 weeks gestation. Prompt diagnosis made possible by transvaginal ultrasound can, therefore, result in earlier treatment.
Transvaginal is more reliable for detecting pregnancies only at the earliest stages of a pregnancy So it is NOT true that only transvaginal ultrasound can detect a 1st trimester pregnancy... and there is nothing in the bill that requires it.
This is just outrage for the sake of outrage. You guys have no argument left.
So there is nothing different about the VA law? This has always been the procedure? All the talk of transvaginal probing is hogwash?
You yourself said "You know this is routine as part of an abortion procedure", so what's the beef?
I asked that as a question, and didn't say it as a statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Sorry, my mistake. However the link I furnished this morning does state the Virginia League for Planned Parenthood states an ultrasound is standard procedure prior to an abortion. I believe tom already quoted it.
So again I ask, what's the beef?Quote:
“Patients who have a surgical abortion generally come in for two appointments. At the first visit we do a health assessment, perform all the necessary lab work, and do an ultrasound. This visit generally takes about an hour. At the second visit, the procedure takes place. This visit takes about an hour as well. For out of town patients for whom it would be difficult to make two trips to our office, we're able to schedule both the initial appointment and the procedure on the same day.
Medical abortions generally require three visits. At the first visit, we do a health assessment, perform all the necessary lab work, and do an ultrasound. This visit takes about an hour. At the second visit, the physician gives the first pill and directions for taking two more pills at home. The third visit is required during which you will have an exam and another ultrasound.”
There are ultrasounds and there are ultrasounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Right, if it happens to be a transvaginal ultrasound (which again is not specified in the law) so the woman will have information on what's actually inside her it's "rape". If it's required before killing the baby it's "treatment". Either way, the woman consents to an ultrasound when she has an abortion, so what's the beef?
Pro-Abortion Rape Myth Debunked, 99% of Abortion Clinics Do Ultrasounds
I'm not moved by the empty protests.Quote:
Abortion advocates in Virginia have come under heavy criticism for equating the ultrasound legislation there would allow women to see before an abortion to rape. Yet, while abortion backers say having an ultrasound is like getting raped, a 2003 study shows 99% of Planned Parenthood abortion facilities do them beforehand.
Published in the medical journal Contraception in 2003, researchers with the pro-abortion group IPAS, the University of North Carolina, a consortium of Planned Parenthood clinics and the National Abortion Federation surveyed staff at 113 Planned Parenthood affiliates and independent abortion businesses between February and April 2000.
The study specifically concerned the use of the dangerous abortion drug RU 486 (mifepristone) and the survey indicated the drug could be given to women at Planned Parenthood centers and abortion clinics because of vaginal ultrasounds.
Surveying 72 of the abortion businesses that sold the abortion pill to women, the researchers found abortion facilities frequently use vaginal ultrasounds before an abortion to determine the gestational age of the baby or afterwards to determine if the abortion was complete. In fact 99 percent of the abortion facilities surveyed always or sometimes performed an ultrasound in association with the surgical abortion — while just one percent did not.
“Vaginal ultrasound was always performed before the early surgical abortion at 59 (83%) sites, under certain conditions at 11 (16%) sites, and never at one (1%) site,” the study noted. “Vaginal ultrasound was always performed after early surgical abortion at 18 (26%) sites, under certain conditions at 46 (66%) sites, and never at 6 (8%) sites.”
Similar numbers were seen regarding vaginal ultrasounds before a mifepristone abortion.
“Vaginal ultrasound was very common before the medical abortion, with 37 (92%) sites reporting that they always performed it,” the study continued. “Vaginal ultrasound was always performed after early medical abortion in 35 (87%) sites, performed under certain conditions in 4 (10%) sites, and never performed in 1 (3%) site.”
The research report’s authors also noted that the frequency of the use of vaginal ultrasounds before abortion is not limited to the abortion centers surveyed, but common practice in the abortion industry.
“Almost all sites offering early medical abortion always performed a vaginal ultrasound before and after the abortion, consistent with common practice in the US,” the study said.
The study also indicated some abortion centers will not actually perform an abortion without first performing a vaginal ultrasound.
“If there is a positive pregnancy test but no gestational sac visible on the vaginal ultrasound, only 15 (22%) of the sites will perform a surgical abortion. If no gestational tissue is seen in the tissue examination, 55 (76%) of the sites usually follow with serum -hCG, 46 (64%) usually send for pathological examination, 26 (36%) usually repeat the aspiration and 53 (74%) usually perform a vaginal ultrasound,” it said.
Moreover, the study indicated abortion facility staff cited a need for more staff trained in performing vaginal ultrasounds so the RU 486 abortion drug could be used at a higher frequency.
The study said, “Respondents were asked whether their site had experienced each of 13 obstacles to initiating early surgical abortion services (listed in Fig. 2). The majority of sites [50 (69%)] reported one or more major obstacles to start-up of early surgical services. Among these sites, the three obstacles most often cited were the challenges of providing additional staff training in the areas of vaginal ultrasound [27 (38%)]…. Table 4 describes the sites’ current experience of providing early surgical abortion services. Fewer than half of the sites [31 (43%)] reported experiencing one or more major obstacles to current service provision. The three most commonly named obstacles were providing additional staff training in vaginal ultrasound techniques [14 (19%)].”
If Planned Parenthood and abortion advocates truly believe giving women an ultrasound is similar to rape, they should be up front about the fact that women are “raped” before virtually every abortion performed in the United States. The real question is whether women will be allowed to see an ultrasound, not whether they will be required to have one — Planned Parenthood and independent abortion facilities already essentially require it.
Was this done in the past?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
That's why we take this out of the hands of loony tune right wing white guys, and put it between a FEMALE, and her DOCTOR. Insurance companies don't even cover a transvaginal ultra sound so who pays for this? But of course who expects a guy to know the difference between one form of ultra sound and another.
From what I read of the guidelines, its only recommended for high risk pregnancies by physicians and is an unnecessary procedure for abortions when a topical ultra sound is sufficient. Its still up to the discretion of the physician when a pregnancy is at high risk, and the medical communities agree.
So right wing politics/religion is completely wrong, and is more than an insult to women, it's a complete reject of her rights to choose under law and hypocritically as usual puts the big government they hate between a doctor, and patient.
If you were serious about stopping abortions you wouldn't subject people to jumping over obstacles, you would make contraception an easily available option to having an abortion. But of course we know that the only people who can be right, is the right. Facts and science be damned.
Transvaginal Ultrasound - Tests, Test Results & Diagnosis - NY Times Health Information
No mention of it being necessary for abortions. Let the doctor make the call, not a politician.Quote:
Why the Test Is Performed
Transvaginal ultrasound may be done for the following problems:
Abnormal findings on a physical exam, such as cysts, fibroid tumors, or other growths
Abnormal vaginal bleeding and menstrual problems
Certain types of infertility
Ectopic pregnancy
Pelvic pain
Transvaginal ultrasound is also used during pregnancy to:
Evaluate cases of threatened miscarriage
Listen to the unborn baby's heartbeat
Look at the placenta
Look for the cause of bleeding
Monitor the growth of the embryo or fetus early in the pregnancy
See if the cervix is changing or opening up when labor is starting early
Tal, I've already posted two links that show vaginal ultrasounds are commonly done prior to an abortion. From the one just above:
No mention of it being necessary for abortions? Hogwash. Next lame excuse?Quote:
Surveying 72 of the abortion businesses that sold the abortion pill to women, the researchers found abortion facilities frequently use vaginal ultrasounds before an abortion to determine the gestational age of the baby or afterwards to determine if the abortion was complete. In fact 99 percent of the abortion facilities surveyed always or sometimes performed an ultrasound in association with the surgical abortion — while just one percent did not.
“Vaginal ultrasound was always performed before the early surgical abortion at 59 (83%) sites, under certain conditions at 11 (16%) sites, and never at one (1%) site,” the study noted. “Vaginal ultrasound was always performed after early surgical abortion at 18 (26%) sites, under certain conditions at 46 (66%) sites, and never at 6 (8%) sites.”
Similar numbers were seen regarding vaginal ultrasounds before a mifepristone abortion.
“Vaginal ultrasound was very common before the medical abortion, with 37 (92%) sites reporting that they always performed it,” the study continued. “Vaginal ultrasound was always performed after early medical abortion in 35 (87%) sites, performed under certain conditions in 4 (10%) sites, and never performed in 1 (3%) site.”
The ironic thing about this appears to be the left complaining about government mandates.
https://www.rutherford.org/publicati...sive_transvagi
What part of consent are you not familiar with, and rape is defined as penetration without consent. As McDonnell is finding out from his female constituents. That's what has people wacky. You cite 72% of abortions have this procedure, already, so what's the point in making it 100%, and taking the choice away?Quote:
If enacted, SB 484 and HB 462 would ensure that women seeking to exercise their court-sanctioned right to an abortion would be treated as if they were suspects and forcefully subjected to an invasive technique in violation of the Fourth Amendment. “No medical actor, doctor or otherwise, should be coerced by the state into probing a woman's body, especially not without informed consent,” said Whitehead. “While all of us who value the sanctity of life hope to see the day when life at all stages is protected, this is not the solution. Compelling women to undergo invasive and unconstitutional ultrasounds in order to have an abortion will only further politicize and polarize an issue that has little to do with politics and everything to do with human rights.”
Makes no difference now as McDonnell has caved to the power of female choice, public sentiment, and GOP moderates with common sense.
Va. House passes amended transvaginal ultrasound bill - WTOP.com
Of course this has not a thing to do with religious freedom, but another example of the right wing trying to dictate morality to everyone else.
Lets just call it part of the due process before a life gets snuffed .
And it appears its so bad that it is being push by women as part of the routine check ups. Gimme a break. It's a more accurate measurement of pregnancy cycle. As well as a tool for checking other problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Early Ultrasound - Transvaginal Ultrasound - Ultrasounds or Sonograms in Early Pregnancy
Yahoo! Video Detail for Transvaginal Ultrasound.flv
I take your point, but we are not talking about a pregnancy, or even one at medical risk. The law they are pushing is specific to those woman seeking an abortion, and what ever procedures to be taken have to be with the consent of the female, on the advice of a doctor.
Not a male bureaucrat pushing his beliefs! Now if a lot of females were pushing this, then I would have no problem with it. That's NOT what's happening.
Deal with your own female, and leave mine alone!
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