believe me we the muslims also feel sad for 9/11.we are against who is responsible for this act.they will pay for theis sin inshAllahQuote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
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believe me we the muslims also feel sad for 9/11.we are against who is responsible for this act.they will pay for theis sin inshAllahQuote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Certainly not the Constitution of the United States.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
What a fantastic country we are that we can rise above pettiness and stay true to our Constitution!
Salaam Alaykum, Mehreen. It is nice to hear from a Muslim in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehreen_mehr
As a home owner I have the right to have a say in what goes into my neighborhood. EVEN IF Zoneing etc would otherwise allow the business. Doesn't matter WHAT it is... if it is disruptive to the morals of the commumnity they have a right to block it. Even IF the legal right exists for it to exist technically. Porn store, Mosque, Church or Doctors Office... doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Why is this as-yet-unbuilt building called a mosque? It won't look like a mosque with turrets and domes; it will look like most of the buildings in NYC. It will be open to the community as a meeting place, as a gym, as an activity center. In fact, it will be a healthy replacement for a derelict, unoccupied building in an area of such buildings, therefore a rejuvenation of the neighborhood.
And hopefully they will. I know not all Muslims (and maybe not even most) were Cheering that day... but there were far too many that were, and did so on Television. The criticism of them (the people celibrating in the streets) by their Fellow muslims was very sadly absent for a very long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehreen_mehr
How would Muslims feel if we built a Church in Medina, or Mecca... and why? 9/11 was committed by Islamic Extremists, and there are a lot of those in the world. A Mosque built THERE would automatically be a memorial to those terrorists as much as many Muslims would wish it wasn't.
It's a Symbol and it would be a symbol right next to a location of a terrorist act. Those can not be changed. New York City has many Mosques... Mecca and Medina have how many? How about any number of cities in Muslim nations for example.
Its not about the Only Mosque in New York City being blocked from being built. Its just this one and just at this location. There are many others that have no issues.
And the fact that the Imam wanting to do this making Anti-American claims that we in any way shared blame for 9/11 does not help things at all.
Hitlers Grave is unmarked so NeoNazis could not use it as a symbol of their movement.
The Islamic Extremeists would use that Mosque if its ever built as a rallying point and a point of pride for their actions.
Some things are just simply a bad idea.
Also notice... I do differentiate between Muslims and Islamic Extreemists. Even though Both are the same faith.
They will? Mosque? It will be a tall building like many of the buildings in NYC.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
The very fact that we are a free nation and allow such a thing says reams about us as a people.
A church doesn''t have to be a classic Cathedral... and a Mosque doesn't have to have all those items either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
They are simply places of worship... some more garish than others. And in the right place a symbol of Memorial to Terrorits that accomplished their task such as this one.
Its primary purpose is not as a mosque. If it is, then you believe the mosque in the Pentagon should be relocated?Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
It is not a memorial to terrorists.
A Mosque at ground Zero erected by Muslims WILL be a memorial to the Muslims (technically Islamic Extremeists) that Killed thousands on 9/11.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
That is a swipe at all Americans... and a tribute towards the 9/11 terrorists. Sorry but that says nothing good about anyone that suggests it be allowed.
What next... Do you support a Memorial to Timothy McViegh across the street from the building he blew up in Oklahoma?
How about NeoNazis building a tribute to Adolph Hitler next to the Holocaust Museum in DC? That would be different exactly how?
Like they say in Realestate... its not WHAT you build... its all about WHERE you build it.
Really you can prove this how... you can guarantee what radical Islamiists do across the world how.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It WILL be a memorial to the 9/11 terrorists, and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do or say that will change that.
THere is a doctorine is Islam that calls for them to build Mosques at the sites of conquest or victory. That is exactly what this is.
That's in YOUR mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
So you are saying I am a bad person for saying it should be allowed.Quote:
That is a swipe at all Americans... and a tribute towards the 9/11 terrorists. Sorry but that says nothing good about anyone that suggests it be allowed.
Are these proposed? By whom?Quote:
What next... Do you support a Memorial to Timothy McViegh across the street from the building he blew up in Oklahoma?
How about NeoNazis building a tribute to Adolph Hitler next to the Holocaust Museum in DC?
What about the Japanese Cultural Center in Hawaii? No one is objecting to that.Quote:
That would be different exactly how?
So... a Christian church in the South is now a memorial to the KKK members who committed atrocities against blacks?
Or a Christian church at Auschwitz is a memorial to Nazis, not those that suffered under the Nazi Christian regime?
Blaming ALL Muslims for the events of 9/11 is like blaming ALL Christians for the atrocities of the Holocaust, the KKK, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades and the witch burnings.
Please--get real.
I'd love to see the entire perimeter of Ground Zero surrounded with religious buildings, to every religion you could think of--INCLUDING Islam.
Freedom of Religion is the freedom of ALL religions, not just those you agree with.
THis is a Mosque. THe Imam want to build it says it's a Mosque... the people fighting for it calls it a mosque... the people fighting against it call it a Mosque. You alone are arguing a Islamic Place of worship ISN'T called a Mosque.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Answers to the above comments..Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
#1 It clear to most people but you.
#2 If the shoe fits... but those were your words, not mine.
#3 Those are examples that you should be supporting should someone propose them.
#4 SO there is a memorial to the Japanese soldiers killed at Pearl harbor is located exactly WHERE in Pearl Harbor?
Incidentally... I can gather that you were nowhere near any of the terrorist targets that day much less inside one when it happened or shortly before.
You see... I was.
Ex, Many of the founders also had some strong feelings against certain religious groups in England. Would they have permitted the Church of England to take a strong presenece and establish power in the colonies or the newly formed government. You think they were talking about allowing new religious freedoms. I am a Christian but I think the fathers were also talking about safeguarding against religions having power over the citizens as had occurred in England, and religion causing destruction of democracy. I believe the muslims have a goal of destruction of democracy and have very openly stated it. The fathers went to war to prevent that essentially. They used "Common Sense". We use "Non-Sense"! Tolerance might be mistaken for cowardice in some instances. Here are the synonyms of tolerance:
Tolerance Synonyms, Tolerance Antonyms | Thesaurus.com
Were we afforded any tolerance on 9/11?
Wait a minute. Now you have the "mosque" AT Ground Zero? When did it get moved?Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
I am not the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
I'm German-American. Are you going to blame me for WWII?Quote:
#2 If the shoe fits... but those were your words, not mine.
And that has what to do with this discussion? You have absolutely NO idea of my connections with any of the targets, so you have no right to disrespect me with that comment.Quote:
Incidentally... I can gather that you were nowhere near any of the terrorist targets that day much less inside one when it happened or shortly before.
Bill Clinton is out of office. Nearby is close enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So better to put it three blocks away? In New Jersey? In Canada?Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I'm Half German too... and it's the Grandparents that came over before WW2. But it wasn't Budists that were responsible for 9/11 or most other terrorism.
Hey... YOU made the comment to start with... MOST people that are appologetic to the Terrorists are people that were NOT in Manhattan much less the Towers or even the Pentagon. We all know those on the Jet with the last one all died before that one could complete his task.
I am the one who has good reason to be offended. If it wasn't for an unusual gut feeling that I had to get out of there (not a remonition but I did want nothing more than to get out of there)... I would likely not be here holding this discussion with you now. I was IN the Pentagon that night, all night, and left not long before the area I was working was hit and burned. Some of the people I worked with died.
So unless you were actually INSIDE one of those three places yourself as I was... your connections are not quite as strong.
Where do you read that I'm apologizing for the terrorists?Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
So unless I was in the Towers or the Pentagon at the time of the attack, I have nothing worthwhile to say?Quote:
So unless you were actually INSIDE one of those three places yourself as I was... your connections are not quite as strong.
How ecumenical ! I bet there will be all types of people from all religions in pick up basketball games and singing kum bay you in the cafateria afterwards! And Islamberg is a peaceful mountain community in the Catskill Mountain .
Every major news source is calling it a mosque .None dispute it will be anything else .Yes it is understood that in addition to a mosque they intend to have some kind of community center .
Mosques are located all over the world . Some have minarets and domes ,some are in apartment complexes... any edifice will do. When the call for prayer booms out of loudspeakers 6 times a day the people in the area will know that it's a mosque.
You are defending a Mosque that WILL be a defacto memorial for the 9/11 terrorists. There really isn't any middle ground. And if there is, it would literally fit IN the eye of a needle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
If you were not inside one of the three... you can't be lecturing someone that was about what they should think or feel. Its hard to put into words... but you have to actually have BEEN in that situation to understand it.
Soldiers with Combat experience know it all too well, victims of violent crime do too. It's a life altering experience. You will never view things exactly the same again.
You never saw unedited filmn from the attacks did you. They edited out the bodies of people jumping and falling. I kow somebody very well that was literally like two blocks away at that in the upper levels of building he was in, looking at it when it happened... he hasn't been able to work since after seening hundreds, not dozens of people fall to their death, some on fire many not.
And you can't fathom how sensitive I am about that topic. Actually in my line of work, my life essentually revolved around that for weeks afterwards as well. So there is a double whammy. Almost die... then have to deal with fixing the problems due to that event.
Smoothy, I just want to say that I'm so very sorry that you had to experience that. I can't imagine. Just the images on the news that day, and weeks later, made me sick, made me weep, broke my heart. If I had been there I would probably be in a padded cell sucking my thumb to this day.
I don't know much about Mosque's or what they represent, nor do I now a lot about the Muslim religion, so I cannot comment on Exy's topic.
If someone could explain, in a nutshell, what a mosque is, why it's erected, than perhaps I'll have something to contribute to this conversation. :)
Completely changed the way I view everything. I was a LOT more happy go lucky before... I'm a whole lot more serious now just for starters. Nothing like almost dying to make you really serious about certain things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Consider that a Mosque to a Muslim is as a Church to a christian, or a Temple to a Jewish person. The are essentully the same thing but to different religions. In Islam a Mosque is also used as a symbal of conquest historically... Mosques are and have been contructed FIRST on any conquered land at prominent inportant locations historically. Think back to when the whole region including Turkey was Christian... first think Muslims did was take all symbals of Christianity and convert them into Mosques not only destroying Christianity but rubbing it into everyone's faces... not to mention what was historically done to the people... convert or die. True we are talking a long time ago... but how is that essentually any different from what Christians and Jews experience in many Muslim nations today. There is a term for it in Islam, and its right on the tip of my toungue.
But Islam is far more than JUST a religion... its a dictated way of life... government control etc... and that's WHY its so dangerous.
The Idiot Cleric that is trying to build this Mosque has openly called for America to become Sharia Compliant... which would trample the constitutional rights of everyone here.
I saw the bodies falling, and I heard the splats [this word doesn't do it -- the awful sound when their bodies hit the pavement -- a sound I never want to hear again, the sound my elderly neighbor's head made when he fell off his porch onto his sidewalk]. I saw the rescue workers wincing and turning away. I too winced and turned away -- and cried.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
No. I am defending their right to build this building.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
I too have seen the elephant, Smoothy. I saw him in '78. I have no problem, as I said before, with building a mosque wherever an Imam wants to build a mosque. My problem is that the plans for the "community center" have six entire floors left blank. Can you say madrassa?
So? There's a Muslim center and school (call it madrassa, if you wish) three blocks from me. It used to be a large public school, but enrollment declined and it had to close. It sat empty and became derelict and an eyesore. Muslims bought the property and restored the building, cut the grass, filled the holes in the parking lot, and have been good neighbors. There is also a Lutheran school and a Catholic one within four blocks. Oh, and a public middle school across from the madrassa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catsmine
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. ~Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Wait--how is that different AT ALL from Christianity for thousands of years?
How is it essentially different from Christianity today? The cover-ups with the priests sexually exploiting children, the suppression of women, blacks, and gays for centuries--even now, many Christian churches do not allow women to serve other than as nuns and exclude gays entirely--and until 50 years ago, excluded blacks from white churches.
How is taking over the world in the name of religion ANY different than what Christianity does? Have you forgotten the Crusades, the witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisition and the missionaries to the New World?
Switch the word "Moslim" to Christian in the paragraph I quoted from you, and you will still have an essentially correct paragraph.
If you don't believe me, try being a witch (pagan) or gay in the Bible Belt sometime.
I remember growing up in NC and the "Negro-only" drinking fountains and bathrooms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Hmmm, my Christian church told me that, because I have the wrong plumbing, there are several things it will not permit me to do.
All 300+ million of us? With guns? Good luck with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Hello again,
I wonder if there are any Christian church's that would like to turn this country into a theocracy, thereby destroying the Constitution. Nahh. Whoever heard of such a thing?
But, if we DID find one, should we root 'em out? Or, is one within his constitutional rights to openly call for Christian law (or maybe Sharia)?
excon
Hello again, Rick:Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
Not really. Read the words again. "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
City's county's, townships, and even HOA's ARE within the states jurisdiction. That, of course, doesn't mean that city's or county's are automatically going to guard everybody's rights. They don't. Certainly no more than the federal government does. If your city is violating ANY of your rights listed in the Bill of Rights, I believe you can sue, and I believe you can WIN.
excon
Exactly WHERE is it Defined anyone has the right to build anything they want, anyplace they want without being subject to any retrictions or approvals (town, County, State and local residents)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Have you ever tried to have something built, or even added to in a substantual way? I don't think you ever have based on that answer.
Because Non-muslims in the USA don't have that right anyplace. Why do Muslims think they are exempt.
I OWN my house... do I have the RIGHT to build anything I want on my Property? NO. I have a whole long list of things that HAVE to be complied with, including a percentage rule where my property can not excede a certain percentage of non permiable surfaces... and that is concrete, blacktop, pavers or structures. And EVERYTHING is subject to local citizen review... meaning even if I make it through all the zoneing, and other legal hurdles... it can still be shot down by my neighbors. And for the Record. There is no homeowners assiociation in the area I live.
And I agree, but I also think he shouldn't be allowed to even get his foot in the door.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Off topic... but MOST and not just a simple majority of the United States wants nothing to do with Obama care... But they are ramming that down our throats. Think about it.
If the Democrats ever had their way... they would take away those guns from everyone. Then what would stand in their way.
Christian Chruches are refused to be allowed to build at certain locations all the time... there has been well publicized cases in Washington DC I know of, why are Muslim Mosques above the same laws, rules and review?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
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