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  • Aug 18, 2009, 05:10 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by amdeist View Post
    I invite you to substantiate both premises.Read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare in the United States. It substantiates both premises.

    No, I asked you to substantiate it, specifically that "America has the worst system" and that Americans don't like our system. Explain, furnish quotes, links, etc.

    Quote:

    We have a bad system, and without change, we are going bankrupt. That is a fact!
    What is a fact is Medicare and Medicaid are going bankrupt, I believe to the tune of $26 trillion of unfunded mandates is what I read. How is Obamacare going to save Medicare and Medicaid while cutting costs, expanding benefits to everyone and without raising taxes on the middle class?

    Quote:

    What's your answer? Let Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security die, and everyone fend for themselves. You won't have to worry about a war in the Middle East. You will have one right here, and it won't be Muslims you are fighting; it will be Americans.
    You assume way too much about me, I prefer people NOT answer for me. Oh and, the scare tactics... love it.
  • Aug 18, 2009, 05:17 AM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by amdeist View Post
    I invite you to substantiate both premises.

    Read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare in the United States. It substantiates both premises. We have a bad system, and without change, we are going bankrupt. That is a fact! What's your answer? Let Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security die, and everyone fend for themselves. You won't have to worry about a war in the Middle East. You will have one right here, and it won't be Muslims you are fighting; it will be Americans.

    I briefly looked at the report and the tables:

    Lets look at hospital readmission rates.
    I don't know the rates of COPD or CHF in other countries, but it is the nature of these chronic disease to take a natural course of steady step wise decline in the endstages of the disease. What cannot be measured or shown by economic metrics is how many admissions were delayed or prevented due to good chronic disease management.

    A simple way of IMPROVING the STATISTICAL numbers on hospital readmission rates or rates of admissions from nursing homes would be for a greater percentage of these folks to be DNR and in hospice care.

    If you are on supplemental oxygen round the clock due to chronic heart or lung disease, it may be better to keep you comfortable at the end and treat you with morphine, but that is a decision left to whom? The government? Or the doctor in consultation with the patient or power of attorney. Yes, some may question readmitting the same demented person from the nursing home with dehydration or urinary tract infections or infected bed sores, but that person is someone's spouse, or parent or grandparent. Nursing homes may send them to the hospital to die because they don't want there own numbers to look bad, or that person is still a "full code." The ER and the admitting doctor cannot exactly refuse admission.


    Another metric NOT MENTIONED is what are the economic costs of malpractice, and how does that contribute to increasing costs?






    G&P
  • Aug 18, 2009, 05:35 AM
    tomder55

    Yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.
  • Aug 18, 2009, 05:43 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.

    Hello tom:

    Let me see. We've got Canadians who say they like their system... Then we've got right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about...

    ME?? I'm going to believe the people who actually participate in the system - not those who read about it.

    excon
  • Aug 18, 2009, 06:10 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello tom:

    Lemme see. We've got Canadians who say they like their system.... Then we've got right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about....

    ME???? I'm gonna believe the people who actually participate in the system - not those who read about it.

    That's just it ex, we've been criticized for listening to "right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about," but this is the incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association saying their system is "imploding" and "unsustainable." Is she just some right-wing American, or is she in a position to know?
  • Aug 18, 2009, 06:46 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by amdeist View Post
    Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.? One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

    First of all, can you name one health care system in any country that is NOT in financial trouble?

    No, you can't, because they don't exist.

    Can you name one health care system that doesn't have lines (queues) that force patients to wait LONGER than we wait for the same care here in the USA?

    No, you can't, because they don't exist.

    Can you name a single health care system that has BETTER PATIENT OUTCOMES than we get here in the USA?

    No, you can't, because they don't exist.

    Can you name a single health care system in which the government that runs that health care system has not limited access to care that we have normal access to, including medicines, procedures and diagnostic equipment?

    No, you can't, because they don't exist.

    So what points, exactly, should we be taking from these systems in order to improve our system without creating a negative effect within our system? Can you name one?

    No, you can't, because they don't exist.
  • Aug 18, 2009, 06:55 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Can you name one health care system that doesn't have lines (queues) that force patients to wait LONGER than we wait for the same care here in the USA?

    No, you can't, because they don't exist.

    Hello again, El:

    Can you name one Canadian who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care?? No you can't, because they don't exist..

    Can you name one American who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care?? Yup. We got 47 MILLION of them...

    You tell me what's better. Oh, never mind. I don't think you have a clue.

    excon

    PS> By the way, it's easy to have short lines when you KEEP 47 MILLION people OUT of them...
  • Aug 18, 2009, 07:03 AM
    tickle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.

    Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say that. She was only one of many doctors attending a general meeting in Saskatoon on August l7th regarding HINI virus and how it will be handled by Canadians.

    We are all wondering on this North American continent how it will effect everyone, so naturally healthcare comes into the picture as well.

    I for one will not be waiting in line for a flu shot for this virus, niether will thousands of Canadians; we will be receiving it already paid for. I don't what you will be doing when you find out you have to pay out of pocket for the shot that will deter HINI virus to protect you.

    You guys have been rehashing this issue for months now and not coming up with any pertinent information, just dragging up old stories.

    Tick
  • Aug 18, 2009, 07:33 AM
    inthebox

    And what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?

    Is it just healthcare that people expect NOT to pay for? How about food, clothing , or shelter, do people pay for these?

    Maybe it is the fact that people DON'T pay for the actual cost of the service, that contributes greatly to overall healthcare costs.





    G&P
  • Aug 18, 2009, 07:54 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    and what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?

    Hello again, in:

    It's not BAD, but it DOES mean that lots of people won't get the shots... I know YOU'RE a responsible adult, and you're going to pay to get immunized, but is EVERYBODY in your family as responsible as you?? Doesn't it trouble you knowing that your little nieces and nephews, who's parents didn't immunize them, are in the playground with kids who are exposed??

    I know that I wouldn't like it... It's really a matter of SELF interest. That's a concept that should resonate with Republicans... It has nothing to do with being altruistic...

    It's the same issue as granting illegal aliens drivers licenses... No, I have no desire to see that illegal aliens get where they're going... I don't care about them. But, I DO have an interest in my family driving on the roads with LICENSED and INSURED drivers...

    It's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    excon
  • Aug 18, 2009, 08:09 AM
    tickle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    and what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?

    Is it just healthcare that people expect NOT to pay for? How about food, clothing , or shelter, do people pay for these?

    Maybe it is the fact that people DON'T pay for the actual cost of the service, that contributes greatly to overall healthcare costs.





    G&P

    Get off your soapbox. I have paid for my healthcare, by employee deductions since I was l8 years old (I am now 67 and on my way to a healthy 70 because of my healthcare system). Everyone paid that way... do you get it... we paid for the healthcare. Now individuals don't pay, but the employer pays for them. It WAS NOT EVER FREE

    An irritated tick
  • Aug 18, 2009, 08:10 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Can you name one American who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care???? Yup. We got 47 MILLION of them....

    No, we have 47 million who don't have health insurance, many of their own choosing. We don't have ANYONE ineligible for medical care.
  • Aug 18, 2009, 08:21 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    We don't have ANYONE ineligible for medical care.

    Hello again, Steve:

    If everyone is eligible for medical care, why would ANYONE buy insurance?

    excon
  • Aug 18, 2009, 08:24 AM
    N0help4u

    Because the people that have insurance do not fall in the income guidelines for medical grants and other programs.
  • Aug 18, 2009, 08:32 AM
    excon
    Hello N0:

    So the FREE medical care is only FREE as long as you fall within the income guidelines. If you don't, and you choose not to buy insurance, do you get this FREE medical care too? If you do, I ask again, why would anyone buy insurance?

    If you don't, then you go without.

    excon
  • Aug 18, 2009, 08:37 AM
    tomder55

    I think my food and housing is too expensive. I think the government should provide that to me for "free" .
  • Aug 18, 2009, 08:43 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    If everyone is eligible for medical care, why would ANYONE buy insurance?

    excon

    Have we as a country forgotten the purpose of insurance? Seems we have, it was not meant to pay for our every medical need, but to "insure" against catastrophic loss was it not? Those greedy insurance companies who dare to think they should be profitable to stay in business, and those butchers ripping out kid's tonsils and cutting off limbs unnecessarily so they can bill more have ruined all that haven't they?

    I've asked several times and no one has been able to answer my question, who goes without medical care in this country?
  • Aug 18, 2009, 08:53 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    So the FREE medical care is only FREE as long as you fall within the income guidelines. If you don't, and you choose not to buy insurance, do you get this FREE medical care too? If you do, I ask again, why would anyone buy insurance?

    You've actually stumbled on the problem with the government heavily subsidizing or providing such things for free. If we can get it for free why would we buy insurance? If the government will take care of me why should I take care of myself? If it's cheaper for the government to provide insurance for my employees why should I provide it? And that is the reason the public option will end private health insurance, you've just shown us how.

    My question is, if someone CAN furnish their own insurance, CAN furnish their own food and housing, etc. why shouldn't they? I want able-bodied people to get off their a$$es and stop sucking the rest of us dry. Then we'd have a broader base of funding to take care of those who really DO need the help. I think that's a GOOD thing, much better than adding millions to the list for government handouts.
  • Aug 18, 2009, 09:03 AM
    excon
    Hello again, Steve:

    How about this?? Don't you want to see American jobs return home? Don't you want to see a resurgence of the American car?? I do.

    It ain't going to happen as long as GM spends more per car on HEALTH CARE, than it does on steel... THAT'S what they're doing.. Nope, it AIN'T going to happen. You, the apparent supporter of small business, want to strap them with costs their competitors don't have... Why would you do that?

    excon
  • Aug 18, 2009, 09:04 AM
    tickle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I think my food and housing is too expensive. I think the government should provide that to me for "free" .

    That is a really intelligent and mature response.

    Tick
  • Aug 18, 2009, 09:16 AM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tickle View Post
    Get off your soapbox. I have paid for my healthcare, by employee deductions since I was l8 years old (I am now 67 and on my way to a healthy 70 because of my healthcare system). Everyone paid that way...do you get it.....we paid for the healthcare. Now individuals dont pay, but the employer pays for them. It WAS NOT EVER FREE

    an irritated tick

    Link me an employer that pays 100% of employees healthcare: no co-pays, no premiums deducted?

    Yes you paid and I am paying taxes to pay for healthcare of others. That is the ponzi scheme that Medicare Medicaid and social security are. I suspect that the big government koolaid that you have been drinking is irritating you. And it irritates those of us opposed to further government intervention In healthcare that is a public option.


    G&P
  • Aug 18, 2009, 09:33 AM
    tickle

    Did you miss my avy where it says I am Canadian, inthebox. How could I possbly link you to an employer and access their records to prove to you how OHIP is paid. I told you how OHIP was paid, I paid it by employee deductions for years, saying it was never free for us.

    And it irritates you, sorry about that. Read on:

    The Ontario Health Premium—who pays?

    BY MICHAEL G. SHERRARD

    (DCN SPECIAL)

    One of the most hotly contested issues of the day is whether the employer is required to pay the new Ontario Health Premium (OHP) on behalf of its bargaining unit employees.

    To date, there are arbitral decisions coming down on both sides of this issue.
    History

    In 1969, the Health Services Insurance Act, 1968- 1969 (Ont.) came into effect. This act established the Ontario Health Services Insurance Plan which later became known as the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP). Under the OHIP employees were liable for the payment of health premiums, and large employers were required to make payroll deductions from employees' salaries.

    Effective January 1990, the Employer Health Tax (EHT) came into force, which provides generally for the payment of a health tax by an employer based upon its payroll costs. Accordingly, since January 1990 employees have not been personally liable to pay premiums for health care.

    Michael G. Sherrard

    The OHP was introduced as part of the 2004 Ontario Budget as a means to supplement funding of health care in Ontario. It is a personal levy placed on individuals based upon their total taxable income. It has not replaced, but is in addition to, the EHT.

    Despite the abolition of the OHIP premiums and their replacement with the EHT, many collective agreements continue to contain language that requires the employer to pay all, or part, of the “OHIP premiums.”

    ms tickle
  • Aug 18, 2009, 09:39 AM
    450donn

    It really is amazing how many NON Americans have chimed into this debate trying to convince us (the USA) that their system is the best and that we are fools for not falling in lock step for it. Why is that?
  • Aug 18, 2009, 09:45 AM
    tickle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    It really is amazing how many NON Americans have chimed into this debate trying to convince us (the USA) that their system is the best and that we are fools for not falling in lock step for it. Why is that?

    I couldn't give a rats behind what happens to your non existent healthcare system, 450donn. I think most Canadians here get really upset when we keep telling you we are happy with our healthcare system, and you say we aren't. Now why is that ?

    ms. tickle
  • Aug 18, 2009, 09:47 AM
    galveston

    The whole legislation needs to be scrapped and start over.

    We probably do need govt guidelines, but NOT govt control.

    We need national tort reform.

    We need cooperatives that are NOT govt run.

    We need health savings programs.

    We need to let the doctors come up with innovative plans without being stifled by some bureaurocracy.

    Just a few things.
  • Aug 18, 2009, 09:52 AM
    tomder55

    Indeed ms tickle my response was intelligent mature and to the point. If I'm entitled or have a "right" to free health care then certainly by extension my food and shelter are of equal importance to the quality of my life .Aren't they ?
  • Aug 18, 2009, 10:14 AM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    I for one will not be waiting in line for a flu shot for this virus, niether will thousands of Canadians; we will be receiving it already paid for. I don't what you will be doing when you find out you have to pay out of pocket for the shot that will deter HINI virus to protect you.

    You guys have been rehashing this issue for months now and not coming up with any pertinent information, just dragging up old stories.
    I guess this is another oldie but goodie .
    Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver, leaked paper reveals
  • Aug 18, 2009, 10:24 AM
    tickle

    I don't believe those cuts happened, tomder, at least nothing reached the eastern papers regarding this so called 'leak' and gee, as you know I am in healthcare, don't you think I would know of this too >>??

    Try again, you are amusing

    Ms tickle
  • Aug 18, 2009, 10:33 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    How about this?? Don't you want to see American jobs return home? Don't you want to see a resurgence of the American car?? I do.

    It ain't going to happen as long as GM spends more per car on HEALTH CARE, than it does on steel... THAT'S what they're doing.. Nope, it AIN'T going to happen.

    They've also been paying people $25 an hour to do nothing but wait for a chance to work again. What stupid, moronic imbecile signed off on all this nonsense? Could it have anything to do with the unions?? Yeah, they're great for the worker but they don't do a lot to make the company competitive again. As long as Toyota, Honda and others crank out better cars cheaper, GM is screwed.

    Quote:

    You, the apparent supporter of small business, want to strap them with costs their competitors don't have... Why would you do that?
    Is it their competitor's fault that GM is strapped with all those costs? Is it their competitor's fault they haven't produced a better product?
  • Aug 18, 2009, 10:51 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    I don't believe those cuts happened, tomder, at least nothing reached the eastern papers regarding this so called 'leak' and gee, as you know I am in healthcare, don't you think I would know of this too >>??
    Maybe you just don't read the Canadian press. I can link to at least 35 other sources like Globe and Mail and the Canadian Press if you like. I have no doubt that you are part of the unionized health care workforce that has a vested interest in the status quo there .

    I read up on this Adrian Dix fellow . It appears that every time he warns of the system the Liberals there call him a fear-monger . I guess that is universal liberal-speak. He said the cuts were delivered as a fact sheet presented at the health authority's board meeting Thursday . Is he lying and fear-mongering ? When he previously warned about this he was told that what he was citing was only a "planning document" . A couple weeks later these documents were presented as fact sheets .

    The fact sheet calls for operating room capacity for elective surgeries to be reduced 10 to 15 per cent for the rest of the fiscal year, in addition to slowdowns and during the Winter Olympics in February and March.

    Dix's big charge is that this information about deep cuts and budget shortfalls was withheld from the public before last May's provincial election .
  • Aug 18, 2009, 03:48 PM
    450donn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tickle View Post
    I couldnt give a rats behind what happens to your non existent healthcare system, 450donn. I think most Canadians here get really upset when we keep telling you we are happy with our healthcare system, and you say we arent. Now why is that ?

    ms. tickle

    And I can site you relatives living in Ontario that hate to even attempt to make an appointment. When right across the border, not 15 minutes away other relatives can get medical appointments when needed.
    Like someone else mentioned, you have a vested interest in status quo because of your union? If our system is so "non existent" then why is it that your fellow countrymen are streaming across the border to get surgeries and pay for it out of their own pockets that are not available to them for one reason or another on your side of the border.
    No one will convince you that a government mandated system is doom to failure sooner or later. Because it is obvious that you are like an ostrich. So there is no point debating it with you any longer.
  • Aug 18, 2009, 05:05 PM
    tickle

    450donn, no hard feelings, but you have to realize I have lived for 67 years, for most of them knowing I can go to the doctor and have my aches and pains treated and just present my health card. When my mom became ill at 85, it was the same for her, her treatment was exceptional by her doctor and the hospital. This was only l0 years ago. My son had exemplary treatment and a defibrillator installed at Toronto General Hospital... presented health card. He has to have a check up every six months to make sure the defib is operating correctly, without it, his heart would stop.

    I am not even semi retired yet and still working at 67, diabetic, high blood pressure, etc. and my prescriptions, for any one of them are $6.00 each. I never have a problem getting to see my doctor, yet only a check up every 6 months.

    So you see where I am coming from. It will go on like this hopefully until I don't need services any longer and I only hope till after my son doesn't need them anymore.

    I wish you guys all the best with your endeavour to get your healthcare settled away

    I had no idea I was debating.

    Kindest regards,

    Tick

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