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In other words Tom you want the Iranian people to surrender their soveriegnty to the american congress of red necked rubber necks and Iran haters like McKain and Trump. This is not post WWII and Iran is not Germany or Japan. To get those rights you are going to have to have a war and win it. Tell me Tom when did the US last actually win a war? Was that Panama or Granada?
The Iranian people LOST their sovereignty when the 12ers hijacked the revolution in1979 . The Iranian people LOST their attempt to regain their sovereignty in 2009 when they were refused help by the emperor after they practically begged for our support . Your narrative is way off !!Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
We sure showed Cuba didn't we?
Yep you showed the taliban too, what Tom is complaining about is that the iranians deposed their american puppet despot in what was, at the time a popular uprising, democracy in action, heaven forbid power should be given to the people to decide their destiny, however dire. But the US has long decided that such things should not run their course, and of course, a great example of american+ intervention is Libya and how is Iraq going for you, Tom?
So how did it work out in South Africa ? It was pressure from the international community ,including divestiture and sanctions that not only ended the South African nuclear regime ;but also ushered in F.W. de Klerk ;who began the dismantling of the Apartheid government ......in other words ,regime change.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
The people's power to decide their destiny was taken from them by the 12ers . The people have no say in Iran. When they rose up they were shot down ....and we stood on the sidelines cheering the regime and making common cause with the apocalyptic homicidal rulers . Now we are going to allow them to get a nuclear capability that will permanently entrench them into power .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Hello again, tom:
Couple things... Most of the withheld money ISN'T in our banks.. So, it's going back no matter what we do.
You keep saying they better do something, as though we have some sort of leverage.. What I think they'll do is finish building the bomb.. They're 3 months away.. Since they KNOW they'll be attacked, maybe they accelerated their program.. Wouldn't you??
excon
What is missed here is it really doesn't matter, that genie was out of the bottle in 1945, seventy years ago, and we should be very thankful that few nations have progressed to the bomb even though many have the capability. It cound be said that with the sanctions regime the result was inevietable because the Iranians have felt threatened and vulnerable for many years. Anything that lessens that vulnerability and gets them opportunity for reflection may help them begin a new path
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Inside the Ring: Russian nuclear threat grows - Washington TimesQuote:
As the Obama Administration seeks to normalize relations with Iran by concluding a nuclear deal with Tehran, it was revealed this week that the Islamic republic has killed about 500 American soldiers via armor-piercing bombs.
During testimony Tuesday before the Senate Committee on Armed Services, Army Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, revealed the U.S. deaths at the hands of Iranians under questioning from Sen. Tom Cotton.
“I think the Islamic State is a grave and throwing threat, but until they develop their own ballistic missile program and until they have thousands of centrifuges and tons of uranium, I believe the Islamic republic will be a graver threat than the Islamic State, that is, the Islamic Republic of Iran,” said Mr. Cotton, Arkansas Republican.
The senator said Iran remains an anti-American, state sponsor of international terrorism that has killed hundreds of Americans from Lebanon, to Iraq to Afghanistan.
“Hundreds of Americans died, and probably thousands were wounded or suspected of being wounded,” Mr. Cotton said. “What should we say to their families, the families who lost soldiers at the hands of Iranian militias or Iranian roadside bombs, once we reach a deal that’s going to give Iran tens of billions of dollars in sanctions relief and international legitimacy without them changing their behavior?”
In other words they will violate the agreement before the ink is dry . I agree . They violated all the agreements ,sanctions and bans before the deal .Why would we believe their behavior would be any different now ?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Iran Quds chief visited Russia despite U.N. travel ban: Iran official | ReutersQuote:
The head of Iran's elite military Quds Force, who is subject to a United Nations travel ban, has met senior Russian officials in Moscow, an Iranian official said on Friday.Qassem Soleimani, chief of the force which is an overseas arm of the Revolutionary Guards, has been subject to an international travel ban and asset freeze by the U.N. Security Council since 2007.
But the Iranian official, who declined to be identified, said Soleimani had made the trip in the second half of July, where he had held talks covering regional and bilateral issues and the delivery to Iran of S-300 surface-to-air missiles and other weapons.
Soleimani had arrived in Moscow on July 24 and met President Vladimir Putin and Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu before departing three days later, Fox News reported on Thursday.
A Kremlin spokesman denied any meeting between Soleimani and Putin had taken place, RIA news agency reported.
However, two U.S. security sources told Reuters the United States believed the meeting between Putin and Soleimani took place.
The thing that gets lost on reactionary haters is that even us pro-deal types are smart enough to know we may still have to go upside some 12'er heads when/if they DO CHEAT!
I think Obama and Kerry know that too. If Bush had of said he was invading Iraq for violating the deal oil for medicine (With the Europeans no less) and not concocted some other story, he may have been understood too!
NAW, his half a$$ invasion was still the work of a military dufus. He just should have smacked France and Germany to name a few.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
What I SAID is that they may have been only 3 months away from acquiring a device BEFORE they agreed to STOP production... But, what I said, and what you said, isn't really the issue, is it??? You want WAR, and that's what ALL that you WANT..
Ok, that's not true.. You want ONE more thing - an Obama DEFEAT.. Right wingers simply CANNOT give him a victory, EVEN if it puts the nation at risk..
excon
You can't accept the fact that this has nothing to do with my opinion of the emperor . A bad deal is a bad deal . I have given examples where continuing the sanction regime has worked (South Africa) and examples where a bad deal resulted in the rogue nation getting nukes (the NORKS ) . BTW ;the Iranians are using the NORKS as their R&D in their nuke and missile development programs ;paying hard cash for it as a matter of fact . Why would they use their limited $$ on nukes and what makes you think that will change when they have more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ??Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, tom:
Look.. I didn't READ it, and I wouldn't understand it if I did.. I suspect you're like me. It MAY be a bad deal. It may not be. I dunno.. But, the POINT is, that's the deal we've GOT, and we're NOT gonna get another one. So, I wanna know what your PLAN is when the deal is rejected...
Saying things like putting more and even stricter sanctions on them, and not letting them have their money back are NOT grounded in reality..
excon
obviously if the deal is not rejected then I will support the candidate who will repeal this "executive agreement " which does not have the authority of a treaty . There is no deal if one of the parties to the agreement walks away .
What I will not be satisfied with is these posers patting themselves on the back and pretending that they solved the problem of a apocalyptic ,homicial regime with it's hands on nukes . They know the history of this better than you and I .
And just for a referesher ......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TcbU5jAavw
How'd that work out ?
BTW how could we read it ? Parts of the deal are secrets even from the emperor .
So not only are we waiting for the congress to act, YOU guys are waiting to win the next election. Bummer, hope you got a Plan B, and highly suggest you NOT hold your breath.
Likely you will holler REPEAL until then though. Ask me how I know. I dare ya!!
It's a no brainer tal, it's an issue they can hook their star too and repeal of OBamacare is so yesterday, after all they lost an election on that one. It is a great pity they cannot be for something instead of this negative politics
Clete - we have a federal election in Canada and the conservatives are doing the same thing here: negative, attack ads. It's shameless.
Yes Karma it seems negative politics is the in thing, but where I come from both sides do it, but yesterday's decision here was something different, a sort of do nothing and kick the ball down the road in the hope that they don't have to fight an election on gay issues. By the way we're with you on climate change, do little, in fact I would think we have probably already reached the targets we set we have over 20% renewables already, solar rooftops are becoming a way of life and wind farms mess up the landscapes, but we can't do better without becoming nuclear, like the world needs another nuclear nation. i just hate the negative way it is sold, like as though we are doing nothing. What I'm aware of is 0.6% of something is effectively nothing and that is what a 40% reduction in emissions would mean. We have to go after the real problems in this world before they overtake us
I have no problem with Australia becoming a nuclear nation . You have a responsible government and are not likely to start dropping bombs on your neighbors.
Hello clete:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yeah.. Be like us. We DIDN'T start the war in Iraq, and we're NOT gonna start the war in Iran..
Bwa, ha ha ha ha..
excon
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