Tal I live in an area where even timber is exported to China, I think it is a great falacy that we give them raw materials rather that processed product, we have food produced in China on our shelves, probably from our own produce and there is no need for it, we are self sufficient in food production, what I see is our industries will be destroyed and we will become dependent upon them. You guys don't understand Marx "we will sell the last capitalist the rope to hang himself" it isn't about military conquest, they don't need to do that, but their economic conquest has begun. Russia couldn't do it, too confrontational, but China understands time, they understand that civilisations rise and fall, even yours. Look at the great civilisationsn of the past, they never again rose to be what they had once been and we walk over their ruins today, it is inevietable it will be the same for you

It is a complete falacy that we think that what we are doing today is sustainable and we can continue growing indefinately

Clete there is a humongous room for growth, and despite your claims of our demise we ain't dead yet. For sure if you want to be so isolated, you will not evolve let alone grow. Why so pessimistic? Do you root for failure?

You don't get it Tal, our economies are based on growth but look at the last few years it has been difficult to get back to where we were before the GFC even with the tremendous potential there has been for growth in the third world. This is because we have allowed our manufacturing growth to be eroded in favour of low cost countries. What pulled us out of depression the last time was a world war and we don't need another one of those. My country has done well because of a mining boom but our other industries languish they cannot get the growth and your are the same, low cost competition is destroying what we do have and we have this foolish idea of a free market and a level playing field. It doesn't work that way as China has demonstrated. They have played a different game to us and have succeeded in gutting our industries. No one wants to be isolated but the correct word is insulated. You think you ain't dead yet look at Detroit, now we don't have cities like that yet, but it is coming because Asia hss learned to compete much better than we have.

I see no positive outcomes from isolation ,especially economic isolation. You talk of our dependency on China ? I see it as they being dependent on us.

No Tom they are not dependent upon you, they can sustain their growth from internal development because they are mortgaging their future building infrastructure while you mortgage yours building aircraft carriers, their emerging market will dwarf yours but they are sensible already they are restricting growth in their auto market, they don't want their people travelling about. Their aircraft industry will supply their aircraft, their car industry their cars, etc and they will supply you too unless you wake up. Asia will out compete us all and we just stand by and let them afterall they represent half the world and you seem to have no comprehension of that. That half of the world has a different cost structure, a different work ethic and a very different idea on how to do business

Seems its you who don't get it Clete, as every country is trying to recover from the global mess, and none so far have done any good by isolating themselves or doing just for themselves, not even China. You cannot insulate yourselves from your own problems and neither can China. The only way to grow is to interact, not insulate.

economic isolation = higher prices for consumers ; increased costs, ,reduced competitiveness, lower quality of life .

It would seem that what we have got is destruction of our industries, every week we have reports of a business closing or laying off, our auto industry is disappearing with a market so fragmented by imports it has become unsustainable, our airline industry is in retreat, cheap rubbish litters our supermarket shelves pushing out local manufacturers, smaller stores are closing because they cannot compete and you somehow think this improves the quality of life, what we get is a push for lower wages because we are competing with low cost countries and I cannot see how lower wages gives better quality of live. We have been seduced by a nonsense

You have the same problem we have Clete, corporations run to cheap labor and your government does nothing, as does ours, and most of the rest of the world. Think of that the next time you blast the governments of others, and tout your own as so perfect.

We all sink in the same crap.

My government is far from perfect and the conservative one we have now seems to be a rabid dog, biting everything. If we had a "perfect" government it was sometime ago. What I have said to you in the past is that some of our ideas are a better implementation than yours and just maybe you could learn from that. the reason I keep up the argument is that I don't want what you have to be implemented here and that just might go for both sides of your spectrum. hell, we can even learn from New Zealand and they are a lot smaller than we are
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right now you have a mood to follow us back to the right side, for us that has proven to have a dark side, so I caution you be sure of what you are voting for

You voted those conservative rabid dogs in, seems you should be as cautious as you warn of us. Its debatable who is following who, as that doesn't accurately define the relationship between countries, or the conditions of our individual countries as we and the other countries seeks to define their own interests and paths to growth and change.

What happened to this Tea Party armed revolution that mentioned a few years ago?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You voted those conservative rabid dogs in, seems you should be as cautious as you warn of us. Its debatable who is following who, as that doesn't accurately define the relationship between countries, or the conditions of our individual countries as we and the other countries seeks to define their own interests and paths to growth and change.

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Oh I don't know Tal we kicked a conservative government for a socialist one, then you did too, you have found the experience less than exciting and so did we with the result that we kicked the socialist government for a conservative one and I expect you will do the same. I think the conditions in parts of our countries might be similar if at different stages, I don't think we have hit the depths that you did but with this government who have decided that debt cannot be tolerated we may get there. The problem here is we had a pack of rabid dogs and we thought the other mob might be different, silly us ah for the days before you gifted us with the GFC

True some here have labeled the government socialists but those are some loud voices who holler labels and spew their hate while embracing "socialist" policy and programs they like Medicare for one and SOCIAL security for another. Listening to them and their anti government rhetoric is foolish and unbalanced in REALITY, Clete as well as judgments based on such hollering.

You were robbed as we were and caught flat footed by GFC and we all struggle to recover from it. Indeed if you had a better idea you should have lead the way by your example, but you are as clueless as the rest of the world in confronting and solving the problem.

So how about more acceptance of responsibility for your own pile of crap, instead of laying it at the feet of your fellow victims. I mean you went along with the program as long as the money flowed, like all the rest so too late to holler now. I mean have you smelled YOUR pile of crap lately? Stinks as bad as mine for sure. Excuses why are irrelevant. Clean it up and that should be easy for you so well enlightened. In truth as mature a society as you want to brag about, you still have more growing to do, and global growing pains should be expected.

Wake up from your fantasy of perfection and clean up your own room, before you criticize mine as being messy. And do something about these rabid dogs while you're at it. Easier said than done.

If it quacks like a duck, acs like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck... its a duck. Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

John F. Kennedy is spinning in his grave over what has happened to his party.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

If it quacks like a duck, acs like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck... its a duck. Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

John F. Kennedy is spinning in his grave over what has happened to his party.

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Lincoln is probably wondering what his republican party is quacking about.

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Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

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Nothing wrong with socialism, but since they aren't then that would explain why they don't call themselves that.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

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You won't be collecting SS when in your 60s or using Medicare either?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You won't be collecting SS when in your 60s or using Medicare either?

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like we had a choice about participation. Just give me what I put into SS now and I'll call it even ;invest it on my own.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

like we had a choice about participation. Just give me what I put into SS now and I'll call it even ;invest it on my own.

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Invest it? You'd be better off taking it and then investing it, rather than living off it. You can opt out of Medicare, I think.