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Sorry Tut, but this just baffles me. I gave a dictionary definition of fairness. What's incorrect about it?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Sorry Tut, but this just baffles me. I gave a dictionary definition of fairness. What's incorrect about it?

A very good question. Glad you asked it.

The way I see it is that words such as 'fair' will always be an open question. We can use a dictionary to break down a concept into further concepts. Naturally this is what a dictionary does.

The other possibility, and the one I think mostly applies to words such as 'fair' is to apply them to actual situations. In other words, to see how they stand in relations to such things as law, politics, health, etc.

The mistake everyone makes (including myself) is that when we apply it to concrete or actual situations we cannot help but make value judgements which distract from the actual state of affairs. What we do is create an idealized understanding of what the word fair means.

We make the ideal fit what is actually happening. This is basically the problem with idealism. It takes on a reality of its own and becomes the lens we look at things through.

We mistakenly believe that we can intuitively grasp the essence of fairness. Another way of saying it would be that fairness is mind dependent but reality independent.

You and I are looking at fairness through different lenses that is why we see two different things. To be perfectly honest, we are both right and both wrong. This is why fairness will always be an open question.

Tut

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

No, I know what fairness is, "free from bias or injustice; evenhandedness."

There is nothing "fair" about taking from one person to give to someone else.

I was always taught that fairness is sharing and playing on a level field. If I have a cookie and my sister doesn't, to be fair, I break it and give half to her. In fact, if the cookie breaks badly, it would be a very kind thing for me to give her the larger half. Injustice would be if I would eat the whole cookie in front of her (and gloat in her misery).

A while ago you said "this is not right" concerning my view of fairness. So now I'm kind of right?

I get that fairness is difficult to quantify, but as the quote by Brooks in my signature implies it should be quite obvious that "spreading money around by force" is "an odd definition of fairness." And that's my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

A while ago you said "this is not right" concerning my view of fairness. So now I'm kind of right?

I get that fairness is difficult to quantify, but as the quote by Brooks in my signature implies it should be quite obvious that "spreading money around by force" is "an odd definition of fairness." And that's my point.

So if my mom had taken my cookie over my objections and broken it in half and given a piece to me and one to my sister, that wouldn't have been fair? What would have been the secondary gain?

Fair... is having a chance at earning something for yourself... not expecting someone that already DID work for it to hand half or any of it over to you...

Is it fair to mow your entire yard then have your lazy neighbor demand you mow their yard too because they don't feel like breaking a sweat. Even though they have a brand new mower in the garage they don't want to wear out.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Fair...is having a chance at earning something for yourself....not expecting someone that already DID work for it to hand half or any of it over to you...

Is it fair to mow your entire yard then have your lazy neighbor demand you mow their yard too because they don't feel like breaking a sweat.

What if a third neighbor tells you that the neighbor with the uncut lawn has a broken leg?

Then said neighbor should pay for the lawn care .

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I was always taught that fairness is sharing and playing on a level field. If I have a cookie and my sister doesn't, to be fair, I break it and give half to her. In fact, if the cookie breaks badly, it would be a very kind thing for me to give her the larger half. Injustice would be if I would eat the whole cookie in front of her (and gloat in her misery).

That wouldn't be injustice, that would just be mean. You aren't entitled to a cookie, you can't compel me to share my cookie and taking my cookie from me and giving it to another is hardly fair, it's my cookie.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

That wouldn't be injustice, that would just be mean. You aren't entitled to a cookie, you can't compel me to share my cookie and taking my cookie from me and giving it to another is hardly fair, it's my cookie.

So being your sister doesn't entitle me? And how will I feel about you then?

What if I have the cookie and you want some and I walk away munching the cookie? Will you be okay with that?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So if my mom had taken my cookie over my objections and broken it in half and given a piece to me and one to my sister, that wouldn't have been fair? What would have been the secondary gain?

You were speaking in your mom's world but I was speaking as an adult. Your mom probably gave you the cookie and she's your mom so you should do what mom says.

As an adult I have five siblings and none of them are entitled to my cookie. They have a job, they have money, they've earned the right and the means to buy their own cookies which I'm not entitled to. And when we want to we'll all gladly share our cookies, not by compulsion but out of compassion and care which is the principle your mom was trying to teach you I would hope.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

That wouldn't be injustice, that would just be mean. You aren't entitled to a cookie, you can't compel me to share my cookie and taking my cookie from me and giving it to another is hardly fair, it's my cookie.

Hello again, Steve:

You're describing socialism.. We don't HAVE socialism.. I know that what's you're being told, but it ain't so.

We don't take from the haves to give to the have nots because we want to make it "fair". We take from the haves so that the poor don't starve and the elderly have a home. We ALSO take from the haves so you'll have a road to drive on.

Now, if you want to discuss the way it IS, we can. But, I'm not going to entertain your fantasy.

excon

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So being your sister doesn't entitle me? And how will I feel about you then?

Heck no, no more than I'm entitled to your things.

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What if I have the cookie and you want some and I walk away munching the cookie? Will you be okay with that?

It's your cookie, why should I care what you do with it? If I want one bad enough I'll get my own.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

You're describing socialism.. We don't HAVE socialism.. I know that what's you're being told, but it ain't so.

We don't take from the haves to give to the have nots because we want to make it "fair". We take from the haves so that the poor don't starve and the elderly have a home. We ALSO take from the haves so you'll have a road to drive on.

Now, if you wanna discuss the way it IS, we can. But, I'm not gonna entertain your fantasy.

excon

Let's see, you MIGHT vote for Romney but you fear what would happen because of all those radical right-wing judges he would appoint. You IMAGINE I'm being told we're now Socialists. Apparently you have no problem entertaining fantasies.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What if a third neighbor tells you that the neighbor with the uncut lawn has a broken leg?

I'd ask that third neighbor why they didn't do it... no neighbor is OBLIGATED to do it free... the person with the broken leg could pay a number of lawn services to do it... assuming they don't have a wife or kids that are each fully capable of doing it if they got up from in front of the TV.

A neighbor might do it if that other neighbor is friendly with them... but they aren't under any obligation to do it.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

I'd ask that third neighbor why they didn't do it...no neighbor is OBLIGATED to do it free....the person whith the broken leg could pay a number of lawn services to do it...assuming they don't have a wife or kids that are each fully capible of doing it if they got up from in front of the TV.

A neighbor might do it if that other neighbor is friendly with them....but they aren't under any obligation to do it.

What if all the neighbors on the block decide to take turns mowing the guy's lawn (he's short on funds and is a bachelor). Would you, as a neighbor also on that block, take a turn?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What if all the neighbors on the block decide to take turns mowing the guy's lawn (he's short on funds and is a bachelor). Would you, as a neighbor also on that block, take a turn?

Only if everyone does it voluntarily... again... they are under no obligation to do it... and if a few decide they won't... they are under no moral obligation to do it.

I've got a neighbor or two I'd do that for if they asked when they were on vacation... and I've got a one neighbor up the street I wouldn't stop to pee on if they were laying in the middle of the road on fire.

Where is the virtue if charity is compelled ?
charity which is expected or compelled is simply a polite word for slavery(Terry Goodkind)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What if all the neighbors on the block decide to take turns mowing the guy's lawn (he's short on funds and is a bachelor). Would you, as a neighbor also on that block, take a turn?

What is your point, or is there one?

It's come to this...

http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/u...ScreenShot.jpg

Yes that's right ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States wants you to forgo your wedding, birthday and anniversary gifts and give it to him instead. Words literally fail me.