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Originally Posted by waltero

Athos, You stated yourself that you Don't "believe" (oppose to Haven't found) there is Evidence?

That's correct. I don't believe there is evidence. That doesn't mean I can't be corrected.

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So it would appear that you are just trying to deny 'existence' of something that you don't believe even exist???

I am NOT trying to deny existence. I have NEVER denied the existence of God. You are putting words in my mouth. READ-MY-LIPS - I believe the existence of God cannot be proved. That is not denying God's existence. The reading comprehension here is abysmal. It's very frustrating when the simplest concepts have to be repeated and explained over and over again.

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How ridiculous is that.

Now you're starting to sound like jl. Please god, not another one.

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Originally Posted by waltero

You fail to recognize testimony as evidence.

Testimony is not evidence of God's existence. It is by definition third-party.

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Now you're starting to sound like jl. Please god, not another one.

Another one of those insulting comments that WG doesn't see. So much for the civility police.

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A little advice, Walter. My experience has been that Athos believes the parts of the Bible that agree with him.

I hear you jlisenbe, I am bored and feel the need to keep him entertained

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Testimony is not evidence of God's existence. It is by definition third-party.

Not considered evidence in who's book? Yet it is Considered evidence in every country across the Globe.

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I don't believe there is any evidence for God. "If there were, why faith"?

Because Faith makes it Possible. Possible to "see" the evidence all around us.

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I don't believe there is any evidence for God.

Indicates lack (Spiritual at least) in your belief of the existence of God. You are playing the Devil's Advocate. If you believe what the Bible says then you know there is Plenty of Evidence. Your taking something that is true and reducing it to a level that is Absolutely absurd, whereby you then use it as a mechanism to refute the reality of the Premise.

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I don't believe there is any evidence for God

Tell me, is there any Spiritual evidence of God? Or are we just Talking about the Carnality of GOD???

Just another argument for the sake of argument, it is all Jl and Athos do

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Just another argument for the sake of argument, it is all Jl and Athos do

One man's argument is another man's discussion. If you don't like it, then go somewhere else, but for crying out loud stop complaining incessantly about it. It gets tiresome.

Just killing time.

I thought that was what this site was all about? Crying, whining Refuting the Truth etc.

It's like saying; I know there's a God and if you can show me Proof that God exists I will believe. But right now I don't "Believe".

Don't wait till the evidence reveals itself...that is all you.

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Just killing time.

Pretty close to it.

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Originally Posted by waltero

I thought that was what this site was all about? Crying, whining Refuting the Truth etc.

It's like saying; I know there's a God and if you can show me Proof that God exists I will believe. But right now I don't "Believe".

Don't wait till the evidence reveals itself...that is all you.

That's NOT how to do mission work and bring people to Christ!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

One man's argument is another man's discussion. If you don't like it, then go somewhere else, but for crying out loud stop complaining incessantly about it. It gets tiresome.

No I won't go somewhere else I have been here just as long as you have and on current events much longer

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Originally Posted by waltero

I hear you jlisenbe, I am bored and feel the need to keep him entertained

Using what I said is not very creative. Also, a self-proclaimed Christian should not make comments like you did. Jl is a bad influence on you.

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Not considered evidence in who's book?

Here's part of your problem. The discussion concerns itself with evidence for the existence of God. When you stray from that, you are losing focus. Books are not the topic.

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Yet it is Considered evidence in every country across the Globe.

Testimony for the existence of God is "considered evidence in every country across the Globe". That's a pretty wild statement. How do you prove that? How do you know that? That's what I meant by you losing focus.

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Because Faith makes it Possible. Possible to "see" the evidence all around us.

That's a statement from faith. If that's what you believe, I have no problem with that. But don't conflate what you believe as evidence for the existence of God. This is becoming repetitive. It usually ends up this way. Are you really trying to understand the point I'm making?

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Indicates lack (Spiritual at least) in your belief of the existence of God.

Waltero, you have no idea what I believe. You are saying my belief is lacking - not because of anything I said, but because you don't like what I'm saying. Your need to criticize betrays you.

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You are playing the Devil's Advocate.

I don't think you know what the Devil's Advocate means.

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If you believe what the Bible says then you know there is Plenty of Evidence.

Now you're putting conditions on HOW to believe. Can't you discuss without bringing in the Bible - just using your own God-given wisdom factory? There is not a scintilla of evidence in the Bible proving the existence of God. There are plenty of stories and history about God and the Hebrews and Jesus and the angels, but none of that is evidence. You cannot prove the Bible by quoting the Bible. You are free to believe it intensely to your dying day, but you are not free to claim it as evidence for the existence of God.

That's like you saying you are the King of Slovakia and for proof you say "I am the King of Slovakia and since I said I am the King of Slovakia, therefore I am the King of Slovakia". Sorry to be so basic, but I don't know how else to get the point across to you." A self-referential "proof" is not a proof. That should be self-evident.

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Your taking something that is true and reducing it to a level that is Absolutely absurd, whereby you then use it as a mechanism to refute the reality of the Premise.

If the premise was refuted, how could it have been a reality in the first place? Another way of saying this is, How can a premise be true and not true at the same time? You're getting way over your head, Waltero. I understand you're hurt by all this God talk because it's not the way you normally think about God and you feel threatened. There is nothing to be threatened about. It will deepen your faith and remove the crutch of needing to "prove" the existence of God.

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Tell me, is there any Spiritual evidence of God? Or are we just Talking about the Carnality of GOD???

Are you saying God has two aspects - one spiritual and one "carnaL" (I guess you mean by carnal the physical or material). I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying there is no evidence for the existence of God. Full stop. Period.

Fact is, the Bible knows you better than you know yourself.

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I don't believe there is any evidence for God. If there were, why faith?"

God Calls for faith therefore there can be no evidence, is that right? You are fighting Both sides against the middle.

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If the premise was refuted, how could it have been a reality in the first place?

Exactly! Your trying to set up a trap. You put a question out there, a question that you don't believe "In" and try to have us deliver the reality of that same something that you don't even subscribe too. It's like the Sadducees, trying to pose a question to Jesus, using the resurrection...yah, yah, that's it...The Resurrection...You mean the Resurrection that they don't believe in. Luke 20:27-40There is no Evidence in your mind, there can be no evidence. Same As the Sadducees, they were closed minded and would not believe the Evidence (Testimony, Civilization, History, Bible, Visceral, etc.) that stood right in front of them (Jesus, in case you missed it). Doesn't exist in your mind so what are you trying to disprove. You have to wonder why stupid people believe in evidence that doesn't exist???

You asked for Evidence. Testimony is classified as evidence.
I don't get upset about such things. I just speak what I know to be true and leave it at that. As you can see, I entered this Knowing that there is nothing that can be said or proved to those that are not open to receive the Truth. You seek evidence/proof (bold face lie), there will be none given.

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I understand you're hurt by all this God talk because it's not the way you normally think about God and you feel threatened.

OK? I believe in God/Bible. How then can I feel threatened? I know who I live for. It is not I who feels threatened because I am not in the Picture...it's all Jesus baby. Get out of yourself and enter into the life and times of Jesus, the King of Kings.

You should request that they Lock this thread being that you are not getting the Answers you are looking for.

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You most likely won't be getting any sign (evidence) from God. Might try to step out in faith before demanding Evidence.

I started off with this. knowing that you pretend to seek something that you have no intention on subscribing too.

Evidence is in the eye of the beholder. I have plenty of evidence within me to believe in the one and only living God.
Just as God has Evidence. You might learn that while your standing in the White throne of Judgment ( I truly hope not). How is my Evidence going to help you??? Waist of time seeking evidence. Seek the Cross of Jesus. there you will have all the proof you need. Rest on the Promises of God...believe and you shall be saved. It is as simple as believing, nothing more.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God's power to us who are being saved.
Seems Foolishness to you don't it.

The fact that you exist is proof, Scripture says God knitted you together in your mother's womb

The wildest statement made so far is that eye witness testimony is not evidence. For historical events, eye witness testimony is regarded as the gold standard of evidence, and especially so when multiple, independent witnesses agree together on an event. It explains why the NT authors were so careful in emphasizing eye witness accounts of the resurrection of Jesus. For instance, Luke begins with this. "1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."

Peter put it this way. "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." Now if these people had been making big bucks off this story, then we could be suspicious, but instead they lived very modestly and in the midst of, not great public acclaim, but great persecution and resistance, and eventually were imprisoned and killed. Yet they did not change their accounts.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The wildest statement made so far is that eye witness testimony is not evidence.

Eye-witness testimony may be evidence but it isn't proof. The witness may have his own agenda and thus be lying.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.

Exactly! And the evidence that brings you to a decision about anything isn't necessarily what I require.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Eye-witness testimony may be evidence but it isn't proof. The witness may have his own agenda and thus be lying.

Convincing enough for those that wanted to believe without challenge, question or scrutiny. The definition of FAITH...belief without evidence.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Exactly! And the evidence that brings you to a decision about anything isn't necessarily what I require.

A fair point, even though you are a Christian too.

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Eye-witness testimony may be evidence but it isn't proof. The witness may have his own agenda and thus be lying.

Read more carefully. I'll underline the relevant points ths time.

"The wildest statement made so far is that eye witness testimony is not evidence. For historical events, eye witness testimony is regarded as the gold standard of evidence, and especially so when multiple, independent witnesses agree together on an event."

There is no real historical "proof" in the same sense that there can be scientific "proof". It's the same idea that prompts our legal standard of "reasonable doubt". Not a certainty, but assuredness that has no "reasonable doubt".

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Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.

Sorry Walter, but that is far from being true. Certainly some evidence is more compelling than others, and perhaps that's what you meant, but the quality of evidence is far from being subject to personal opinions.

If you can't find the Proof/evidence of the existence of God, then your missing something. What I know as Proof/evidence is not capable of Bringing God/Jesus into (your...mine, yes) being. The Evidence you seek is on the Cross. Why can't you receive (Jesus) the evidence that has already presented (Jesus) itself? Could it be Human Nature that repels??? Bring it in through the Spirit.

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Can't you discuss without bringing in the Bible

In and of myself - NO. I don't even know how that would be Possible. "Can you show me proof of the existence of God, without the Presence of God...OK God, we must ask you to leave the room. Strike God from the record." Hahaha your a Funny Boy.

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There are plenty of stories and history about God and the Hebrews and Jesus and the angels, but none of that is evidence.

It's only the living Word...Christ, the Word incarnate. (John 1:14-18)
Ok, If you can bring me proof of the existence of God then I will believe...believe in what? God or the evidence???Fact of the Matter is the evidence is perfectly clear and yet you still don't believe it exists...that's Human nature. John 20:29 "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Go for the Blessing.

Paul makes two arguments. One is the argument from creation. " 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. "

The other is the moral argument found in chapter two. "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

Waltero, there's so much here that you're missing. I'll try to be brief. You seem like a nice guy, so all I ask of you is for you to consider with an open mind.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Fact is, the Bible knows you better than you know yourself.

Walter, please see this sentence for what it is - a statement of your faith. Believe what you will, but please don't call it a FACT because you believe in it.

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God Calls for faith therefore there can be no evidence, is that right?

That's one way of putting it. You're starting to understand.

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You are fighting Both sides against the middle.

Now it's me that doesn't understand. Please explain.

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Your trying to set up a trap. You put a question out there, a question that you don't believe "In" and try to have us deliver the reality of that same something that you don't even subscribe too.

You're backsliding now - and so soon. What you see as a trap is simply your fear asserting itself. I know it's hard to face what I'm saying, but to claim what I don't believe in or what I don't subscribe to re the evidence for God as the same as not believing in God (if that's what you're doing) can't be supported by a single thing I've said.

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It's like the Sadducees, .................................yah, yah, that's it.....................The Resurrection..
...................... Luke 20:27-40................................................ ........There is no Evidence in your mind, there can be no evidence. Same As the Sadducees, ............................

You're getting WAY off the track here.

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You have to wonder why stupid people believe in evidence that doesn't exist???

Waltero, waltero - come on. I never said that, and you know I never said that. Why are you making up stuff like that? People who believe don't need evidence. Paul said what I've been saying, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen".

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You asked for Evidence. Testimony is classified as evidence.

First-hand in-person testimony is classified as evidence, but it can be refuted. (I assume you're talking about the legal system). Second- or third-hand testimony is NOT evidence. It is classified as hearsay. The only exception I know of is a death bed statement. If you're referring to Bible passages, all of it is hearsay in legal terms. Yes, the Bible says it itself is truth - but re-read my previous post above on this subject.

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I just speak what I know to be true

No, be honest, re the topic being discussed, you speak what you BELIEVE to be true, not what you know to be true.

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I entered this Knowing that there is nothing that can be said or proved to those that are not open to receive the Truth.

Then you entered this with bias. If you truly believed that, why are you here?

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You seek evidence/proof (bold face lie), there will be none given.

I do not seek evidence/proof of evidence for God. I've made it clear I don't believe there is any. I challenged those who do believe there is evidence - none has been forthcoming. You say, "There will be none given". Agreed, because there is none. I don't know what the "bold face lie" is all about. If you care to explain, I'll listen.

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I believe in God/Bible. How then can I feel threatened?

Many Bible believers feel threatened. This is revealed by their insistence on telling others they are going to hell if they do not believe. They make this a major proposition of their Christianity - equal to and sometimes greater than the Christian message of love. It's a "tell".

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I know who I live for.

I'm glad for you.

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You should request that they Lock this thread being that you are not getting the Answers you are looking for.

If the kitchen is too hot for you, feel free to close it yourself. I am not looking for answers. I am challenging Christians hoping that they will examine their beliefs, and move away from the understanding of a religion that has not grown with them into adulthood.

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I started off with this. knowing that you pretend to seek something that you have no intention on subscribing too.

"Knowing"? How could you possibly have known what I was doing? And "pretending"? I hope this post has dissuaded you from that "knowledge".

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Evidence is in the eye of the beholder.

You couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, if you realize your error (a really big one, btw), it will have been worth it.

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I have plenty of evidence within me to believe in the one and only living God.

I never said you didn't. Are you implying I did?

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Just as God has Evidence.................. White throne of Judgment ...................oing to help you???
Seek the Cross of Jesus. there you will have all the proof y.....................on the Promises of God...believe and you shall be saved. It is as ..........he message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.........................

More threats from Revelation, why am I not surprised?