At what?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
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At what?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Not trying to be obstinate, but what you posted was their belief about Jesus. Their belief about salvation includes the following: "Salvation is attained now the same way it was then: we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."Quote:
I posted their belief about salvation from their site.
They are very heavily works oriented. This is what they actually post as their "plan of salvation". It's impossible to find in the Bible.
"We lived with Heavenly Father before this life as His spirit children, and we came to earth to gain a body and to learn and grow and eventually return to Him.
Long before the Creation of this earth, our Heavenly Father provided a plan that made it possible for us, His children, to become like Him. This plan is called the plan of salvation. Understanding this plan gives us greater purpose in life.
Before this mortal life we lived with God as His spirit children, without physical bodies. We chose the Father’s plan, which included the Creation of this earth and provided us the opportunity to come here to gain a body, make choices, develop faith, and accept responsibility for our actions. This allows us to progress beyond what was possible in the spirit world when we lived with God.
Sin and death are also part of mortality. The Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to provide a way to overcome sin and death. This He did through an act called the Atonement. Through Christ’s atoning sacrifice we can repent of our sins and someday live with God and with our families forever.
https://www.mormon.org/beliefs/plan-of-salvation
What kind of Christian are you that has the real Christianity?
40“I tell you,” He answered, “if they remain silent, the very stones will cry out.” 41As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it 42and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes.…Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The attitudes of the people, the inability to see the truth
If they believe this, the Gospel, the peripheral stuff doesn't matter, does it? If it does, why?Quote:
Not trying to be obstinate, but what you posted was their belief about Jesus. Their belief about salvation includes the following: "Salvation is attained now the same way it was then: we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."
But the word doesn't say that, that statement is full of peripheral stuffQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
This is full of peripheral stuff?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
"...we must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments. In this way, we gain eternal life."
We do not have a works based gospel. That is where they stray afar from the genuine gospel. It is not peripheral, it is CORE. It is the entire point of the first 8 chapters of Romans and is repeated throughout the NT.Quote:
remain steadfast in keeping God’s commandments.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
So you make no effort to keep God's two greatest commandments, love God and love each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Btw, Eph. 2:8,9 are the verses recited by Luther as he rebelled against buying indulgences and then posted his 95 Theses.
Being obedient to God is certainly important, but works are not a part of our salvation, they are the fruit of it. We all want our children to do chores around the house, but they do not become our children by doing them. Rather, they do them because they are our children. The order in which things happen is important.Quote:
So you make no effort to keep God's two greatest commandments, love God and love each other?
I think you're just being argumentative. You know these things.
As every good student of Luther (including you) knows, this verse in Romans was his real eye-opener. Romans 1:17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed-a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
So we have to be careful to say that just right, that we obey the two greatest Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because it is our thank-you to Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Nope, never connected Luther with the Romans verse. It has always been the Ephesians verse. (Psssst, I was born on Luther's birthday, but in a different year. :D)Quote:
As every good student of Luther (including you) knows, this verse in Romans was his real eye-opener.
Oh, and Eph. 2:10 says, For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
How it's said is not as important as how it's understood, and yes that is important.Quote:
So we have to be careful to say that just right, that we obey the two greatest Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because it is our thank-you to Him.
Created FOR good works, but not saved BY good works. The difference is enormous. A sinful man can never work his way into God's favor any more than a murderer can work his way into a judge's favor.
Ah religious debates how they rage
So the dufus and his sycophants are likely going to hell right?
So are you if you are not right with God by faith in Jesus.
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"
Yup. That was Luther's main thesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So there will be only Baptists in Heaven, maybe with a few Methodists and Lutherans? And it sounds like no Mormons, and certainly not Muslims and Hindi and Catholics.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
It never ceases to amaze me how Bible fundies condemn everyone to hell if they don't believe the way the fundies do. Of course, they say they don't condemn anyone, the condemned themselves do it by not accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior.
And in case, you're still not sure, well, the Bible says so!!
What a crock! Hard to believe this nonsense is still around in the 21st century.
So says you. I haven't said that. I did paste a scripture from the Bible you say you believe. What part of it do you disagree with?Quote:
So there will be only Baptists in Heaven, maybe with a few Methodists and Lutherans? And it sounds like no Mormons, and certainly not Muslims and Hindi and Catholics.
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"
And we should believe that because, after all, you believe it. Thus saith Athos.Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how Bible fundies condemn everyone to hell if they don't believe the way the fundies do. Of course, they say they don't condemn anyone, the condemned themselves do it by not accepting Jesus as their Lord and savior.
And in case, you're still not sure, well, the Bible says so!!
What a crock! Hard to believe this nonsense is still around in the 21st century.
I understand that as, ALL are loved by God and have been justified by His grace as a gift because of Jesus' death, His sacrifice.Quote:
[and all] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
OK. Sounds like you are a believer in universal salvation, which of course would have to include Stalin, Hitler, and even Donald Trump(sorry, Tal). But if universal redemption is what is meant, then what does this mean?Quote:
I understand that as, ALL are loved by God and have been justified by His grace as a gift because of Jesus' death, His sacrifice.
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
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