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James said, "But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation."

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I understand that. I also understand that King David was an oath-maker. Not only that, wouldn't you agree that we take an oath when giving our lives to Christ? My yes rarely means yes and my no rarely means no. The Oath that I committed to did not come from me. God will make it happen. And the thing on letting your yes be yes and your no be no...simply means, knowing when you say yes/no you say it as if the Lord is saying it...your word is true. I would guess that we, as Christians don't suffer condemnation when our yes means no and our no means yes. I understand the Oath that I took and I know that I need to be true to it. I think King David talks about the way God brings Oaths back to your remembrance, to feel that same elation that we once felt, having God's favor when we took such oaths. Psalms 61 I think.

I've come to learn the real reason Jesus and James said what they said. I took the oath when I was fasting and in heavy prayer, and I have come to the end of myself. If I hadn't been in such a situation while taking an oath, I'm sure I'd be suffering condemnation.

Jesus said take no oaths. That's good enough for me. When I tell someone I will/will not do something, then I must be willing to honor my word.

There is no oath mentioned in the Bible in relationship to becoming a Christian, or at least not that I'm aware of.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Jesus said take no oaths. That's good enough for me. When I tell someone I will/will not do something, then I must be willing to honor my word.

There is no oath mentioned in the Bible in relationship to becoming a Christian, or at least not that I'm aware of.

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Oaths in Jesus' time were not like oaths now.

How’s that?

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There is no oath mentioned in the Bible in relationship to becoming a Christian, or at least not that I'm aware of.

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And look, here we are talking about Baptism.
The first meaning of baptism is that it is a pledge. It is every bit as binding as a wedding vow. Oath vs pledge - One takes an oath in the name of someone or something that is greater, than, above him/her and which he/she holds sacred. to pledge has the element of a guarantee so when one pledges he solemnly promises to do something. The difference is that oath is more solemn more sacred and has a higher standing as an utterance.

Many are “for Christ” but few are “with Christ”. At bap­tism, we are buried with Christ through our pledge of commitment. We also have the Lord's supper - The basic meaning of a sacrament is an oath, an obligation, a vow. In legal termino­logy, it is a pledge.

I'm guessing most people even Christians have taken Oaths. Jesus says not to...if you so happen to take a Vow or oath, make sure it is acceptable to God...follow through with said vow as if your life depends on it...cuz it does!


And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila, having shorn his head at Cenchrea, for he had made a vow.

Found this:
PAUL'S MOTIVES.
The strong feeling of thankfulness for deliverance from danger, following upon fear which, as in nearly all phases of the religious life, has been the chief impulse out of which vows have grown. We have seen the fear, and the promise, and the deliverance, in the record of St. Paul's work at Corinth, and the vow of self-consecration, for a season, to a life of special devotion was the natural result. St. Paul had not learnt to despise or condemn such expressions of devout feeling.

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Oaths in Jesus' time were not like oaths now.
How’s that?

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Probably has more to do with making a pledge rather than a Vow. In baptism, you make a pledge in answer to a question...Opening up the possibility for the Father to step in for his child, in regard to infant baptism ( I know I could have worded that better).

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The first meaning of baptism is that it is a pledge

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Where does the Bible say that?

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Jesus says not to...if you so happen to take a Vow or oath, make sure it is acceptable to God

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If Jesus says no, and you take an oath, how could that be acceptable to God? Wouldn't you be doing what Jesus said not to do?

When did Paul take that vow, before he became a Christian or afterwards? At any rate, vows are not the same as oaths.

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The strong feeling of thankfulness for deliverance from danger, following upon fear which, as in nearly all phases of the religious life, has been the chief impulse out of which vows have grown.

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Seems like speculation but interesting nonetheless.

Found this contrasting vows and oaths. Worth thinking about.

The difference between an oath and a vow is that12345:

• A vow is a personal promise, usually made to someone else or to oneself, about something specific or general. A vow can be religious or secular, and does not involve any legal or institutional consequences.
• An oath is a solemn pledge or promise, usually made before an authority or a deity, to attest to the truth of a statement or to perform a duty or obligation. An oath can be legal or ceremonial, and involves some form of sanction or penalty for breaking it.

Jesus also said don't call anybody a fool. Yet Paul calls the Galatians Foolish.

So are you suggesting that it is alright to disobey the teachings of Christ?

To tell someone they are behaving foolishly as Paul did to the Galatians is not the same as calling them a fool.

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not the same as calling them a fool.

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In Galatians 3:1, Paul says “O foolish Galatians”
Could we dispense with Wordplay for a moment? Paul said it. Maybe we should find out what Jesus meant when he said...?

There is an enormous difference between telling someone they are being foolish versus saying they are fools. It is not word play.

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Maybe we should find out what Jesus meant when he said...?

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I completely agree.

Oath of office, oath of allegiance to the king, oath in court to testify truthfully, Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag, 4H pledge, wedding vows, Boy Scout oath, Baptism vows, Confirmation vows,

You are always referencing Scripture to promote doctrine and understanding.

Are we supposed to just ignore Solomon and Psalms and Jesus calling out fools (Matthew 23:17)?
It is Wordplay, in the sense of Legalism. Words are always being redefined, they take on new meaning.
The reason for this might be that God doesn't want his people to accept his word interluded with man's dictionary...Man's interaction with the essence of Holiness. It is not as if a Christian will be condemned by saying a simple word (such as "fool"). But he's (Jesus) talking about the attitude of the heart. Some people used to try and live a Holy life by legalism. What Jesus is saying - is of course related to the motives and anger and so forth, that cause people to move in the direction of murder and the like. Even if they don't go so far to do so (such as murder). Those attitudes are a sin.

We can relate this right along with Oath's or Vow's. God knows that 99.9% of the time when a person makes a vow it is more of a deal-making situation (every time we want something let's make a deal with God), Attitude, and that not of the heart. I give you this you give me that. King David Made Vow's when He was in trouble...Big difference.

Then the Spirit of the LORD came on Jephthah...And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD...whatever comes out of the door of my house...who knows why he felt he needed to do this. Look how many times the Israelites made Vows, even to the extent that if they broke them they would be kicked out of God's Kingdom forever. Jesus said don't make oaths - according to the Law...when we speak of oath we speak it in our native tongue...it doesn't come from the heart.

I in no way am saying it is okay to make a vow to God.
I wasn't in my right mind when I made an Oath. I have to know it was acceptable to God because I am alive and kicking.

Let's take em one at a time.

1. Oath of office. I wouldn't do it. I would simply do what Jesus said to do, which would be to let my "yes" mean "yes".
2. oath of allegiance to the king. Wouldn't do it.
3. oath in court to testify truthfully. Already discussed. You can simply affirm to do so.
4. Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag. Not an oath. If they ever take "under God" out of it, then I'm finished with it.
5. 4H pledge. Silly example.
6. wedding vows. We've already discussed how vows are less serious than oaths. Please keep up.
7. Boy Scout oath. It's not necessarily an oath. It's referred to as an "oath or promise". Boy Scout Oath, Law and Motto (usscouts.org)
8. Baptism vows and Confirmation vows. Refer to number six.

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We can relate this right along with Oath's or Vow's. God knows that 99.9% of the time when a person makes a vow it is more of a deal-making situation (every time we want something let's make a deal with God)

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How do you know this?

It's interesting to me that when James makes this reference, he introduces it by saying, "Above all else..." That sounds important to me. He didn't say, "Hey guys, in that 0.1% of the time when it's actually serious, then don't make a vow or an oath! The rest of the time you don't have to worry about it." You can explain it away if you want, but I'm not going there.

Your position is made very difficult by the fact that we are not commanded to make oaths. So in Romans 17 or 18 or 19, Paul could have written, "Hey guys, if you really want to make a deal with God, then by all means use an oath." Make a deal with God? I can hardly believe you even suggest something like that. We don't make "deals" with God. We follow God by faith. The "deal" was already concluded at Calvary.

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I in no way am saying it is okay to make a vow to God.
I wasn't in my right mind when I made an Oath. I have to know it was acceptable to God because I am alive and kicking.

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I understand that we do foolish things when we get under pressure. Been there/done that on a number of occasions, including the court situation I related above. But we know we are acceptable to God when we walk according to His word. Our circumstances don't tell us that. A man could say, "It must be OK for me to be married to another man since, after all, I am alive and kicking."

Jesus said don't make oaths - according to the Law...when we speak of oath we speak it in our native tongue...it's not coming from the heart.

An oath to you is more of a legal document. I do this and if I don't I will suffer condemnation. Why did he say you might suffer Condemnation? Wouldn't automatic condemnation follow?? Not to mention you are forgetting the countless oaths that come from Scripture. God himself made oaths.

Everything has to do with the Heart. You are looking at it in a legalistic fashion. There is an evil spirit that leads people to work it out in such a way.

You can do anything as long as the attitude of your heart is right with God. You see God moving in Prostitution, Murder, Deceiving, etc.

Seems that you are wrapped up in a legalism in your approach to the Christian life.

JL, again, please stop with the put-downs. And yes, the 4H pledge is a very special and honorable one. I was a 4H-er for several years and loved every minute of it.

Jesus said don't make oaths - according to the Law...when we speak of oath we speak it in our native tongue...it's not coming from the heart.

An oath to you is more of a legal document. I do this and if I don't I will suffer condemnation. Why did he say you might suffer Condemnation? Wouldn't automatic condemnation follow?? Not to mention you are forgetting the countless oaths that come from Scripture. God himself made oaths.

Everything has to do with the Heart. You are looking at it in a legalistic fashion. There is an evil spirit that leads people to work it out (their lives) in such a way.

You can do anything as long as the attitude of your heart is right with God. You see God moving in Prostitution, Murder, Deceiving, etc all throughout the scripture. I'm talking about Godly people doing these things. Just in case you misunderstand; the spirit in which I speak - Jacob deceiving - such and such becoming a prostitute, prophets murdering, Paul making a vow, Jesus calling Pharisees fools, etc...God allowed it because their heart was in the right place. But yes, I get it. It is best to stay away from doing such things as you believe to be wrong. What is wrong for you doesn't mean it's wrong for God... those whom God is moving through.

Seems that you are wrapped up in a legalism in your approach to the Christian life.

Walter, I'm looking at it based on what Jesus said we are NOT to do. It's just like Eve in the garden. Don't eat the forbidden fruit became OK after a conversation with the enemy of her soul. You can rationalize it if you want to. Your choice. I have no intention of choosing to go against what he plainly and clearly said. The context of both the Matthew and James passages are very clear.

Why is it when someone decides to be obedient to the teachings of Christ, then there is usually another person around who wishes to be disobedient and thus accuses the first person of "legalism"? Obedience to Jesus is not legalism. Do you really think you will stand before God some day and tell Him you were disobedient because you didn't want to be a legalist???

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JL, again, please stop with the put-downs. And yes, the 4H pledge is a very special and honorable one. I was a 4H-er for several years and loved every minute of it.

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WG, we are talking about oaths. You came up with a list that included vows and pledges, but they are not oaths. If I conveyed that idea crudely, then my apologies.

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Why is it when someone decides to be obedient

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You do understand this goes both ways?

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You do understand this goes both ways?

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I certainly do. Have I objected to a claim by you that you are walking in accordance with God's word? You have already admitted that your taking of oaths was unwise. Is there something else you're referring to?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

WG, we are talking about oaths. You came up with a list that included vows and pledges, but they are not oaths. If I conveyed that idea crudely, then my apologies.

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You have very narrow definitions limited by your understanding of and demand for using the Bible meaning. It's almost 2024. Times and definitions have changed - including how the word "oath" is defined and used now.

You have claimed that before, WG. I asked you how that is true and have received no response. The Greek word for oath still means...oath. Look at the Matthew passage in context and tell me how modern oaths are different. Try going into a court of law, make false testimony, and then claim afterwards that the oath you took wasn't really serious. See how far you get.

It's 2023!!!! Those words have broader meanings and uses now.

You claim Jesus said, while the Bible is explicitly clear what Jesus said...said in the heart of Scripture. That includes all of History.
There is nothing new under the Sun. You claim making vows is unbiblical. When you see throughout all of Scripture God initiating Oath taking. You claim - should not call anybody a fool. When all through the Scripture fools are being called fools.
You simply take it as The LAW! Everything is either biblical or unbiblical...what else are we to think? My life took an oath, and all you come up with - that is unbiblical. You have no idea how that (oath) has changed a life. You can only point out "We aren't supposed to take oaths." Paul called the Galatians fools, you say he called them foolish and stated, "it is not the same thing," When all along you know he called them fools. You're looking at the Scriptures as if it were a legal document.

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It's 2023!!!! Those words have broader meanings and uses now.

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This is what I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with WORDS!!! It has everything to do with the attitude of one's heart.
Words are out. There is no longer any such thing as Words. God wrote his Word on our Hearts. There are no other words. His Word will last forever. our made-up words are just that, made up. We continue to speak words as if they are truth and bring life. Every other word (outside of scripture) is nonsense. They have no real meaning because they are not real. they are constantly changing, developing new meanings. The New Testament is not a new discovery of God's testimony.

This is becoming redundant.

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Originally Posted by waltero

This is what I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with WORDS!!! It has everything to do with the attitude of one's heart.

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Awesome, waltero!

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Words are out. There is no longer any such thing as Words. God wrote his Word on our Hearts. There are no other words.

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And that is your choice. You just want to make it up as you go along and ignore the Bible. You are welcome to it, but I'll not join you. I can assure you of one thing. God is not leading you down that path.

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It has everything to do with the attitude of one's heart.

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How do you know that's true? You can't appeal to the Bible since you have decided that there is no such thing as words, and that words no longer are what you're talking about, so how do you know it's true?

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Awesome, waltero!

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The woman who believes that Jonathan and David were homosexual lovers, and who "suggested" that Jesus and John were as well, thinks your post is awesome.

Leave them kids alone - Page 4 (askmehelpdesk.com)

Hillary Clinton Absolved of Wrongdoing Re Emails by State Dapertment - Page 22 (askmehelpdesk.com)

The cure for discrimination is...discrimination? - Page 2 (askmehelpdesk.com)

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The woman who believes that Jonathan and David were homosexual lovers, and who "suggested" that Jesus and John were as well, thinks your post is awesome.

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Can you prove otherwise?

Since you, the former librarian, have agreed that there is no longer any such thing as words, then I'm not sure how either of us can meaningfully comment on that subject. If I say the word written in my heart says they were not, will you accept that?

I just wonder how happy Walter is with your endorsement now. But since we are, in your views, no longer bound by mere written words, then do you believe you are both right, in your own minds, about whatever you think? After all, there are no more words other than those in the heart. Correct???

Walter, since WG believes that in her heart, then is she correct? And if you don't agree with her, what makes you think she's wrong? Remember, you can no longer appeal to the written word since you have said there is no longer any such thing as words.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Since you, the former librarian, have agreed that there is no longer any such thing as words, then I'm not sure how either of us can meaningfully comment on that subject. If I say the word written in my heart says they were not, will you accept that?

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I've "agreed that there is no longer any such thing as words"? Huh?

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I just wonder how happy Walter is with your endorsement now. But since we are, in your views, no longer bound by mere written words, then do you believe you are both right, in your own minds, about whatever you think? After all, there are no more words. Correct???

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I was remarking on waltero's well-written, concise, BRIEF reply.

In Walter's "well-written, concise" reply, he stated, "There is no longer any such thing as Words." He went on to assert, "...our made-up words are just that, made up. We continue to speak words as if they are truth and bring life. Every other word (outside of scripture) is nonsense." So Walter, in that "awesome" reply, has rendered all of our words as "nonsense". If that is true, and you have fallen all over yourself to flatter him in his reply, then how are we to communicate???

Why do you continue to put yourself in these glaringly obvious traps?

You apparently don't know how to encourage anyone.

Remember how convoluted his responses used to be? Now his responses are very readable and even understandable. I look forward to reading what he has to say.

His words are, according to him, nonsense, as are yours and mine. Sorry, but I don't see the profit in encouraging that sort of..."nonsense". My goal is to encourage people to think about what they are saying. So often we say things that are completely self-defeating and even dangerous. My questions are designed to get people to begin to see that for themselves, and I certainly that others will do that for me.

So I would ask Walter this. How is it possible for us to communicate if our words are nothing but nonsense?

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How is it possible for us to communicate if our words are nothing but nonsense?

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By the holy spirit.

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Every other word (outside of scripture) is nonsense.

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Words are out. There is no longer any such thing as Words.

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So you've now decided these statements are not true? After all, what you just wrote is words, but words are out and no longer exist. Worse, what you just posted is not in the scripture, and thus is not really words.

Think, Walter. Think.

JL, Take this Country for example. We have Laws. We used to have Moral codes. When we have no more Morals we will lose all understanding of the Laws that have been put in place. Whether it is us (society) or God writing those laws, we will be lost. It's not about the Laws being written in your mind, It's all about God's Law being Placed on your HART. It is all about the Heart. I have often wondered why Christians get so involved in the Political realm because changing the Laws will do absolutely nothing...it won't change a thing. Change doesn't start from the Top down, It starts from the bottom up....people have to have a right heart. We know this because we are living it. There is no more understanding of the Law. We have a president who ignores and breaks the Law, we have everybody misinterpreting the Law, and we have the Courts redefining the law. Not only that, we have people making up words and you have to Go along otherwise you will suffer persecution.

So tell me, what is your Idea of a woman? Can you define what a woman is? I'm guessing in a few months (if not now) the definition of Woman will be redefined, and you'll be able to look it up in the Dictionary and see that a woman is not at all what you thought it was. I'm telling you words are out and you are telling me words are in. Yes, the words just keep coming in...new words, old words being made new.

I just watched a movie called "After Death." It is about people who die and come back.
It was interesting. all of the ones they interviewed said the same thing. Said that once they were brought up to the light of love they didn't want to come back. They talked about wonderful music being heard. and they talked about how they didn't have a care in the world. Some said that it was as if this (here on earth) was a dream and where they were at was ultimate reality. They also mentioned "that we use Human words to explain how things are, there are no [human] words to describe what they have seen or where they have been.

It became a reality for them. It needs to become a reality for all Christians.

We need to speak to others with our heart (love).

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I'm telling you words are out and you are telling me words are in.

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Words must still be in for you. You continue using them.

If you are trying to say that the heart is the most important realm in human existence, then I'm with you on that, but when you use words to say that "words are out", it's just muddled thinking. And if you are trying to say that the Bible is no longer important, and that the words of the Bible are no longer important, then you have completely lost your foundation. You really need to think that through a great deal more carefully.

Perhaps this is what you are trying to say.

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16 I never stop giving thanks for you as I remember you in my prayers. 17 I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, would give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you may know what is the hope of his calling, what is the wealth of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the mighty working of his strength.

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I'm saying that it is not the Words in and of themselves that are important.
It's easy to learn the meaning of words. All we need to do is search and look them up. Words coming from the mouth of God (Bible) have many different meanings...different understandings. Just look at the many different translations. There might come a time when the Bible will be outlawed. Then what will we have? You want to interpret scripture using the words that are at your disposal. Those same words have completely different meanings when it comes to the Bible and God.

We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say. To think Christianly or to think biblically is not simply to think Christian thoughts or to think biblical thoughts, but it’s to think all of our thoughts from a Christian and biblical perspective.

From what I gather, you are stuck on words (after all you are a teacher). The mere fact that you put it out there as an Oath, having a different meaning than Vows...and the like. Taking a similar position; "calling somebody foolish is not the same as calling them a fool." You are welcome to look it up in the dictionary. For me, I'd rather learn from the scriptures.

For instance; You foolish Galatians. Oh, foolish Galatians. You stupid Galatians. Oh stupid Galatians. O senseless Galatians. All these come from the same Bible, different translations. Jesus states that calling someone a fool is grounds for judgment. Note; Both, Jesus and Paul occasionally called people fools.

Then we have: But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all. But I say, do not make any vows! But I tell you not to swear at all. All come from the Same Word (Scripture). Then we see (not to be heard but seen) St. Paul... Paul often employed oath formulas in order to testify to the truth of his assertions (Rom 1.9; 9.1; 2 Cor 1.23; 11.31; Gal 1.20).

As well as your continual claim that you're not against babies being Baptized. Yet you are quick to bring up "Nowhere in the Bible are you going to find a baby being baptized." If you were speaking truthfully, then there is no reason at all for you to have brought this up. You unwittingly fell right into WG's hand.

I also know something about you that you might not realize. You will automatically go on defense, being that you think I'm slagging you...and you won't even understand a single word that I speak...You too, knowing words to be helpless.