Truer words were never spoken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
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Truer words were never spoken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
You're really holding tight to those keys!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
W.G.: You give me way too much credit and certainly I have no power: The keys are held the one who made all of us.....We all have an equal shot, its really a choice....its up to us to make the right choice. Believe me, it was hard for me to come to terms with the absolute finality of what the choice is IF THAT CHOICE IS THE WRONG ONE.....I thought about the fairness of it and questioned a lot of things that I THOUGHT I KNEW WITH COMPLETE CONFIDENCE.....but some things are not of "interpretation", some things are simply of belief, of trust, of knowing that God has your back, no matter what: That's the deal: In the Catholic religion, its called "The Mystery Of Faith".....it simply means that you follow, whether you understand it or not, whether you know the absolute solution or not......you follow to the end of no ends.
I was scolding you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
W.G.: I know you were….but I also want you to know that I am not as crazy as you may think I am, as I might sound.....I really can't articulate what I feel about this, and certainly I am not of an Evangelical bent, but I admire faith......it is sorely lacking today.....and it is enough to bring you to tears. It so seems that faith in God is under attack on all fronts these days and it saddens me.
Exactly the opposite! I'm struggling with severe anemia and have had a lot of medical intervention during the past year. My medivan drivers, my nurses, my hematologist, lab techs. Many open to expressing their faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Then let me express mine also, WG, be whole and healed in the name of JesusQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Thank you. Won't happen in this life. Would have to be treated with bone marrow stem cells.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
well in order to receive your healing you have to claim it not deny itQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes, really. But you'll never know because you don't like wild goose chases. I think you once said you would not click on links. Your loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
As a matter of fact, I do. You could know too with some intelligent searching.Quote:
you have no idea how the Christian community in A.D. 90 viewed the book of Revelation.
Against my better judgement, I will do as you ask this one time. I do it because it is the crux of the matter. On post #232 on Sep 25 at 7:15am, you wrote, "Those who do not have faith will be judged as they are still in their sins. They will spend eternity in hell."Quote:
I have never denied it, and I don't recall posting any requirements. If I did, then post the quote.
Mentally unable is a new one. You're getting there.Quote:
The only exception I am aware of, and I have said this before, is for children or for those who are mentally unable to be held accountable.
Do you still criticize those who insult others?Quote:
No, I'm attempting to have a thoughtful conversation with someone who is interested in pursuing the truth. I don't think that describes you, but I hold out hope that I am wrong.
No. The issue is how YOU interpret a Bible passage. Nothing more.Quote:
How God responds to people is not the issue? It is entirely the issue.
There is another page here for your prosyltizing. This one is for the purpose I said above.Quote:
.................................. acts, then it is going to be a day that is going to be terrible. Those who have faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ have nothing to fear. Those who trust in their own goodness have everything to fear.
I'm glad you found me amusing.Quote:
The idea that you were holding onto something until the right time made me laugh.
The context for this idea seemed to be that only the faithful can get to heaven. For all others it's the wrong choice with its "absolute finality". Not sure what you mean by that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
But since you mention the Catholic Church, I thought I'd bring you up to date. Catholicism teaches that non-Catholics who lead good lives according to their lights and an informed conscience can get to heaven. I believe that's generally the mainstream Protestant understanding also.
As to Marxists/Bolsheviks not going to heaven because they are atheists, there is a Marxist movement that has God. It's called Liberation Theology founded by the Jesuits in South America..
In Islam, they are forbidden to judge anyone as being in heaven or hell. I heard that from a Muslim who seemed knowledgeable.
Athos: Great points, as usual! By "finality" I mean that if you die, without accepting Jesus, there really is no more/the end of the road is upon you.
I do find it hard to accept Marxist could be anything but Atheist: Marx discussed the treachery of religion in the Manifesto, didn't he, and he is the Granddaddy of Marxism.
Look, I know that way back when, Islam recognized Christianity, so there is a begrudging acknowledgement: They even admit that Jesus existed! Just don't know enough about what you say, so I will have to take your word for it.
That is the same statement I've been making since this conversation started months ago. Nice try but no cigar for you.Quote:
Against my better judgement, I will do as you ask this one time. I do it because it is the crux of the matter. On post #232 on Sep 25 at 7:15am, you wrote, "Those who do not have faith will be judged as they are still in their sins. They will spend eternity in hell."
The requirements I was referring to trace back to a question you asked months ago and which you have been pursuing off and on since then such as when you posted just a few days ago, "Do you, or do you not, believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will spend eternity in hell suffering punishment for all time? This includes babies and children and people who never heard of Jesus. Your answer, please." It was originally something to the effect of posting a single scripture verse or passage that stated that unbelievers would perish in hell for all of eternity.
Yes. You know so much that you can't post a single fact. Like I said, I'm convinced you don't have a clue. There is no need to post a link. You could simply make a statement. "I believe that because blah, blah, blah." When you don't do that, it makes it appear that you can't. And that's where I'm fine to leave the whole thing. All the rest is just fluff. You asked for scriptures that show that those without faith in Christ go to hell. I gave them to you. You have to decide for yourself what you believe.Quote:
Yes, really. But you'll never know because you don't like wild goose chases. I think you once said you would not click on links. Your loss.
As a matter of fact, I do. You could know too with some intelligent searching.
I've said that before. It's not new.Quote:
Mentally unable is a new one. You're getting there.
The one thing you seem reluctant to do is to state your own beliefs. What do you think happens to those who die without faith in Christ? For that matter, where is your faith? Have you accepted the Savior? Other than yourself, and as you stated earlier your brain's ability to make judgments, what/who do you believe in?
No stem cells in my future. Am too old. The annual transfusions work well. My hematologist is on top of things!Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Very sorry to hear of your struggle.Quote:
No stem cells in my future. Am too old. The annual transfusions work well. My hematologist is on top of things!
Thank you. No struggle. God is with me. Plus, I'm having a great meeting and talking with and interacting with many very faith-centered medical workers in non-religious settings at clinics, labs, the hospital.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Your attitude and strength has always been a source of hope and inspiration WG. Good luck and my prayers always my very good friend.
W.G.: I had no idea.....No wonder you seem so strong....because you are! And now I know the historical frame for your name....and, it fits, too, by the way!
People like you, who face so much, make people like me feel small: If ever I face the same type of challenges you do, I hope, no PRAY, that I can summon the kind of courage you have and not become a sniveling pile of goo. I am already a horrible patient when I even catch a cold or flu and, according to my wife, the biggest baby you ever saw.....hate being sick.
I am happy God is with you and you with Him because you are secured and blessed.
My WG name is because of my years working in public libraries -- always being challenged by patrons' reference questions (wondering what they REALLY wanted to know) and later challenged by the Dewey Decimal system when I was a cataloger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Ok, thank you clearing that up. Your compadre JL believes that you go on suffering eternal punishment in hell (if you die without accepting Jesus). That is the basis of my disagreement with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Yes, Marx was anti-religion. But that was a very small part of his philosophy. He mainly commented on the economic systems of the world. Many of his ideas are now considered main stream.Quote:
I do find it hard to accept Marxist could be anything but Atheist: Marx discussed the treachery of religion in the Manifesto, didn't he, and he is the Granddaddy of Marxism.
Islam considers Jesus a prophet, not God. Both the Jews and the Muslims deny Christianity is monotheistic because they believe the Trinity is three gods.Quote:
Look, I know that way back when, Islam recognized Christianity, so there is a begrudging acknowledgement: They even admit that Jesus existed!
Yes, and it proves my point that you believe unbelievers go to hell where they are eternally punished. Your words are "...the unfaithful will spend eternity in hell". It couldn't be any clearer. In fact, I even gave the exact location where you said it. ?????!!!!!!!?????!!!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
YES, again. Your answer, AGAIN, "...the unfaithful will spend eternity in hell". You make the statement and then you retract the statement. You sound like Donald Trump.Quote:
You posted just a few days ago, "Do you, or do you not, believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will spend eternity in hell suffering punishment for all time? This includes babies and children and people who never heard of Jesus. Your answer, please."
Flattery will get you nowhere.Quote:
Yes. You know so much that you can't post a single fact. Like I said, I'm convinced you don't have a clue.
With your admission that unbelievers go to hell, I'm fine with that, too, and have been since you first admitted it after my challenge when you initially skated around it. But you keep coming back and seem to deny it. You first said they weren't your words, but God's words, so I should argue with God. If you believe what you consider God's words, then my argument has always been with you.Quote:
And that's where I'm fine to leave the whole thing.
My own beliefs are my own and the only belief I need to share here is the one opposed to your belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment.Quote:
The one thing you seem reluctant to do is to state your own beliefs.
I have no idea what happens to them. Neither do you.Quote:
What do you think happens to those who die without faith in Christ?
My beliefs are not your concern. It is easy to see you'd like to find out what they are and then find a reason to attack them, maybe even sending me to hell. I think you'd like that.Quote:
For that matter, where is your faith? Have you accepted the Savior? Other than yourself, and as you stated earlier your brain's ability to make judgments, what/who do you believe in?
Athos: The belief by Hebrews and Muslims that Christianity is not Monotheistic is, I think, a hard separation in the Christian mind, particularly the Catholic one: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (the Holy Trinity) are greatly accepted as the "parts" of the same entity.....sort of like most in the U.S. view Congress-Senate-Executive as "The Federal Government" (I always view these things in terms of affinities of what is similar)…...few distinguish the three when thinking about it, in general.
It is not simply my answer. It is the Bible's answer. It's what I have consistently said from the beginning, so I'm not sure why you sound so surprised.Quote:
YES, again. Your answer, AGAIN, "...the unfaithful will spend eternity in hell". You make the statement and then you retract the statement. You sound like Donald Trump.
So you can post what you oppose, but are afraid to post what you support. Interesting. Shouldn't you have the courage to state your beliefs?Quote:
My own beliefs are my own and the only belief I need to share here is the one opposed to your belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment.
Fascinating that you claim to have no knowledge of what happens to them. If you are completely ignorant of their future, then how would you know my understanding of Scripture is wrong? Just because you don't know anything at all about it doesn't mean other people are as equally lacking in knowledge. Considering the importance of the subject, don't you think you need to learn?Quote:
I have no idea what happens to them. Neither do you.
My beliefs are based on the Bible. I get the idea that you consider it to be just another book while I consider it to be THE book. I asked if you had faith in Jesus and you declined to answer and have declined to state any belief you do have. I think that is unfortunate. Now you are free to believe as you wish, and I don't want to sound as though I'm ridiculing that because I'm not. I look forward to listening to all points of view expressed on this board, but you are not prepared to share yours. Rather than oppose a certain perspective, wouldn't it be better to advance your own?
You do need to consider the claims of Christ. You think you are having a disagreement with me, but have you considered that it might go a lot deeper than that?
What you write is true of CHRISTIANS! It is NOT true of any other religion, each one believing that Christianity is polytheistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
It is also your answer. Stop with the semantics, please. Nobody is fooled.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Not afraid at all. As I said, my beliefs are my own. What do you care, anyway? Do you have an agenda? Probably, yes.Quote:
So you can post what you oppose, but are afraid to post what you support.
Not fascinating. It's the truth. I don't know, and neither do you.Quote:
Fascinating that you claim to have no knowledge of what happens to them.
Simple, it's too bizarre and you have misinterpreted the idea. The real question for you is WHY? Why a misinterpretation.Quote:
If you are completely ignorant of their future, then how would you know my understanding of Scripture is wrong?
Of course, it does. NOBODY - read my lips - knows what happens after death. Anybody that says they know is wacky.Quote:
Just because you don't know anything at all about it doesn't mean other people are as equally lacking in knowledge.
An unknowable subject carries little or no importance and therefore does not need to be learned. An analogy is a law that is not enforced. Is there therefore a law at all? That's a philosophical approach since a religious approach, for reasons stated, doesn't work. You could read Camus - he's dealt with this question. Interesting question. The first one you've asked.Quote:
Considering the importance of the subject, don't you think you need to learn?
Yes, I know. It's a very good book to base one's belief on.Quote:
My beliefs are based on the Bible.
Hmm, you need to be a little clearer here. I wouldn't call it "just another book", that denigrates it, somehow. I already said it is a very good book.Quote:
I get the idea that you consider it to be just another book while I consider it to be THE book.
See above. Already answered.Quote:
I asked if you had faith in Jesus and you declined to answer and have declined to state any belief you do have.
I don't.Quote:
I think that is unfortunate.
Thank you.Quote:
Now you are free to believe as you wish
You don't come across as ridiculing my belief. How could you? I haven't given it. I am fully prepared to share my point of view when I deem the time proper for such sharing. To be honest, your strange belief (my opinion) re unbelievers and hell is not an encouragement for me to want to hear the rest of your beliefs because they are already tainted by your hell belief.Quote:
, and I don't want to sound as though I'm ridiculing that because I'm not. I look forward to listening to all points of view expressed on this board, but you are not prepared to share yours.
No, I don't think my disagreement goes any deeper than you and have not considered it. My understanding of Christ is what it is. I doubt anything you say would change it.Quote:
You do need to consider the claims of Christ. You think you are having a disagreement with me, but have you considered that it might go a lot deeper than that?
OK. Your approach to all of this is a bit puzzling, though I'm glad your position has become apparent. You claim to know nothing about the fate of unbelievers. You say you don't know what will happen and yet, amazingly, you can tell what WON'T happen. You believe that since you are completely ignorant on the subject then everyone else must be as well. You lack the courage to outline your own beliefs, and you've made, I guess, a no-call on Jesus. You are full of negatives and completely lacking on positives. I've made it plain where I stand, so I guess we've about said it all.
You know I have no idea what christian beliefs have to do with this OP
Nothing! Interesting though. Doesn't change the fact the dufus is a crook and stealing OUR money and stuffing it in his own pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I agree. I'm an offender. It will soon be over because I'm getting really tired of it. In any case, it should move to the Religion board for those interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Will you PLEASE stop with the word games? You know exactly what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
WRONG AGAIN!! You're making a habit of being wrong. My not knowing has nothing to do with anyone else. Again, your logic fails you. My not knowing derives from the fact that no one has ever offered evidence of a life after death, much less one spent being tormented in hell. The examples in religious scriptures are matters of faith, not science.Quote:
You believe that since you are completely ignorant on the subject then everyone else must be as well.
Whenever you lose an argument, you revert to ad hominems. The clear mark of a failure. I have made no call (without the hyphen) except to derive you of the pleasure of criticizing whatever belief I may have. Look in a mirror - you are hardly Mr. Positive.Quote:
You lack the courage to outline your own beliefs, and you've made, I guess, a no-call on Jesus. You are full of negatives and completely lacking on positives.
Yes, you've made it plain after I had to drag it out of you. Even tho your belief is bizarre, hiding it is that lack of courage coming back at you. Be careful of accusations - especially projections.Quote:
I've made it plain where I stand,
Yes, I do. I really do. And now I finally know at least some of what you believe. You don't believe in an afterlife since science has not proven it and you consider the Bible to be outside of the realm of what could fairly be called knowledge. Fair enough, but if you don't believe in the Bible, and if your only appeal is to what you consider science to be, then why do you endlessly argue about what the Bible says? Why not just say you don't care what the Bible says? And why would you care if someone else believes in the Bible and in judgement for sin? If I didn't believe in the Bible, then I'm not sure why I would care what other people believed as long as it didn't influence me.Quote:
You know exactly what I mean.
Well, we have talked this to death. I have a position based on Scripture. Jesus, the one who was raised from the dead, said repeatedly there was an afterlife and a judgement to come. That's good enough for me. You don't like it. We can leave it there.
Here's what I believe for the umpteenth time: Your belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment is A) complete nonsense, B) not supported by scripture which I have proven to you many times now but you refuse to believe, C) you are a victim of what is called Biblolatry, the worship of the Bible in place of God. OK? got it? This is not something people decide as adults - it's too bizarre. People are taught this from an early age when their powers of discernment are nil. Sadly, that is why it tends to get passed along.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
This is completely false, and you know it. I've hesitated to tell you what I think of you out of courtesy, but this comment of yours relieves of my self-imposed restraints. YOU ARE A LIAR!Quote:
If you don't believe in the Bible, and if your only appeal is to what you consider science to be,
My belief on the matter has been stated again and again as clearly as possible. Your refusal to see it is your problem, not mine. Your pernicious belief is deeply rooted in your psychology, not in any scripture.Quote:
Why not just say you don't care what the Bible says? You, I guess, have no belief on the matter.
I can think of nothing more negative than condemning a poor old lady who never heard of Jesus Christ to an eternity of torture and punishment in hell. That, my friend, is YOUR belief!
This was your statement. " My not knowing derives from the fact that no one has ever offered evidence of a life after death, much less one spent being tormented in hell. The examples in religious scriptures are matters of faith, not science." Sure sounds like an appeal to science and not the Bible. As to evidence of life after death, I'm not sure if you consider the statements of Jesus to be evidence or not, but He spoke of it constantly, including the reality of a fiery hell and a throne of judgement, and of course His own resurrection would be the ultimate validation. Now you have to decide if you believe what he said or not, but that's up to you. I am a believer.Quote:
Here's what I believe for the umpteenth time: Your belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment is A) complete nonsense, B) not supported by scripture which I have proven to you many times now but you refuse to believe, C) you are a victim of what is called Biblolatry, the worship of the Bible in place of God. OK? got it? This is not something people decide as adults - it's too bizarre. People are taught this from an early age when their powers of discernment are nil. Sadly, that is why it tends to get passed along.
That made me laugh, coming as it did from you. Your anger really needs some help, but I'll leave that to you. Honestly, being called a liar by you is a real compliment. As the old saying goes, "Just consider the source."Quote:
This is completely false, and you know it. I've hesitated to tell you what I think of you out of courtesy, but this comment of yours relieves of my self-imposed restraints. YOU ARE A LIAR!
I repeat, YOU ARE A LIAR! Besides that, your belief is as sick as a belief can get. To claim Jesus said anything remotely like it is blasphemy. To attribute to God the things that are of the devil doesn't bode well for your soul. Even so, I don't condemn you to eternal punishment in hell - as you would condemn all those good people everywhere who do not believe the way you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I'm done with you.
You were done a long time ago. You just didn't realize it. Nonetheless, I wish you well.Quote:
I'm done with you.
As to what Jesus said, " 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Muslim, agnostic, atheist, Christian, Jew, Jain, Hindu, et al. -- "whatever you did for one of the least of these..., you did it for me."Quote:
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Athos is correct.
Unless, of course, you don't pay any attention to Acts 4:12. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved." The name they are proclaiming is clearly the name of Jesus.Quote:
Muslim, agnostic, atheist, Christian, Jew, Jain, Hindu, et al. -- "whatever you did for one of the least of these..., you did it for me."
Athos is correct.
The question you are ignoring is this. How does a person become righteous? Now if you have read the first three chapters of Romans, then you know that only through faith in Christ does a person become righteous. The point in what Jesus said is that those who have placed their faith in Him will bear the fruit of good works, but it is the faith that comes first. You're a Lutheran and you don't know that? Luther is turning over in his grave!!
So no, Athos is far from correct.
Answer an honest question. Are you trusting in your good works to be right with God? Or if someone comes to you and asks how to be right with God, what do you tell them? I know you guys are terribly reluctant to answer questions, but I really wish you would answer those two.
Nope, not good works. Good works are our thank-you notes to God.
Jesus didn't say that; Peter did.
So you are saved through faith in Christ?Quote:
Nope, not good works. Good works are our thank-you notes to God.
What would you tell the person asking you how to be right with God?
Jesus didn't say what?Quote:
Jesus didn't say that; Peter did.
I don't get it. If Jesus is the way to eternal life, then how do you justify not helping the least of us? Is there a pick who you help option on that or what? I would really like to know.
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