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what choice is that speech to be ripped off by "the market"? The free market and choice is an illusion created by some slick adman.
In this case, some aspects of the market needed to be regulated and as a result chances happened. What can I tell you shlt happens! we have a political process so that eventually change happens, we would like to think it gives a good result but.................. we are dealing with people afterall
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Groucho Marx
“Seven Deadly Sins
Wealth without work
Pleasure without conscience
Science without humanity
Knowledge without character
Politics without principle
Commerce without morality
Worship without sacrifice.”
― Mahatma Gandhi
does any of this sound familiar
Hello again,
Obama ISN'T losing the health care debate to the Republicans.. He's losing it against HIMSELF. That's because the Republicans DON'T have a plan. To wit: Yesterday, John Boehner gave a news conference where he critisized Obamacare, and said stuff like people want to choose their insurance. They wanna choose their doctor. They wanna choose their hospital.. That's what patient centered health care looks like. (I looked for the video, but couldn't find it).
Then he was asked whether those ideas would be VOTED on in the House by 2014. He snickered, along with the newsmen, and said, "We'll see".
I've asked before here, what the Republican plan is. I remember Steve telling me that the Republican plan has been presented here SOOOO many times, that he wasn't going to repeat himself..
But, I WISH he would, because HE knows, and I KNOW, and Boehner KNOWS, and ALL the newsmen in that press conference KNEW, that there ISN'T a plan.
Oh, I know there are parts, like tort reform, and buying insurance across state lines, but that's it. There's no PLAN. There's NOTHING that can be scored. There's no BILL. There's NO alternative to Obamacare... There's just right wingers flapping their gums...
excon
Hello again, Steve:
Yes, I'm being serious.. But, we're back to the same old games you play when you don't wanna answer, or there IS no answer...Quote:
Seriously?
I WENT to Forbes, but it didn't tell me what the Republican Health plan was.. It only listed the lefty's like me, who're saying the same things as me.. There WAS a link to the WSJ where it said that Karl Rover spelled out the Republican plan.. But, it wanted me to JOIN before it would let me read the article...
So, given THAT runaround, I'm left with believing that there IS NO PLAN.
Look.. Obamacare is 1,200 pages... I haven't read it, but I can TELL you what the plan IS, and HOW it's paid for. I'm simply asking YOU to do the same... But, you ain't gonna. I know you Steve. You WOULD if you COULD.. But, since there AIN'T no plan, you can't. Poor right winger.
excon
Hello again, Steve:
Yes, I have more to say... Aside from the tired old crap about tort reform and buying insurance across state lines, you TALK about how you'll KEEP the good stuff in Obamacare, like kids on their parents policy's till they're 26, ending the pre-existing condition crap, and ending the cap, and stuff like that...
But, I PROMISE you, it's NOT WRITTEN down, because PAYING for it would explode the deficit. You'd NEVER raise taxes to pay for it... So, this is a plan that resides in the minds of Republicans only, because no Republican in his right mind would EVER support it.
Over to you, winger.
excon
You obviously didn't read the whole article. Below the video and on page 2:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Enough of that argument, OK?Quote:
Comprehensive Republican health reform plans introduced in Congress
Let’s start with 5 comprehensive health reform proposals that have actually been introduced in Congress—some well before President Obama even was nominated for president, and all months before the House (11/7/09) or Senate (12/24/09) voted on what eventually became Obamacare.Comprehensive conservative Obamacare replacement plans
Ten Steps to Transform Health Care in America Act (S. 1783) introduced by Senator Mike Enzi (R-WY) July 12, 2007.
Every American Insured Health Act introduced by Senators Richard Burr (R-NC) and Bob Corker (R-TN) with co-sponsors Tom Coburn (R-OK), Mel Martinez (formerly R-FL) and Elizabeth Dole (formerly R-NC) on July 26, 2007.
Senators Bob Bennett (R-UT) and Ron Wyden (D-OR) introduced the Healthy Americans Act on January 18, 2007 and re-introduced the same bill on February 5, 2009.
Patients’ Choice Act of 2009 introduced by Senators Tom Coburn (R-OK) and Richard Burr (R-NC) and Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) and Devin Nunes (R-CA) on May 20, 2009.
H.R. 2300, Empowering Patients First Act introduced July 30, 2009 by Rep. Tom Price (R-GA).
Likewise, conservative market-oriented health policy scholars have developed a rich menu of potential replacement plans for Obamacare:
Individual Pay or Play proposed in 2005 by John Goodman; this is a minimalist version of a broader reform envisaged by Goodman built on converting the tax exclusion into universal tax credits.The forgotten history of George W. Bush’s comprehensive health reform plan
Health Status Insurance originally proposed by John Cochrane in 1995.
Universal Health Savings Accounts proposed by John Goodman and Peter Ferrara in 2012. This combines fixed tax credits with individual pay or play and health status insurance concepts along with Roth-style Health Savings Accounts.
Fixed tax credits. A variety of proposals have centered on using fix tax credits to replace the current inefficient and unfair tax exclusion for employer-provided health benefits. Two good explanations of how that would work are here:
James C. Capretta and Robert E. Moffit, “How to Replace Obamacare,” National Affairs, no. 11 (Spring 2012).
James C. Capretta. Constructing an Alternative to Obamacare: Key Details for a Practical Replacement Program. American Enterprise Institute, December 2012.
Income-Related Tax Credits proposed by Mark Pauly and John Hoff in Responsible Tax Credits (2002) and endorsed by the American Medical Association. More recently, 8 scholars from Harvard, University of Chicago, and USC–Jay Bhattacharya, Amitabh Chandra, Michael Chernew, Dana Goldman, Anupam Jena, Darius Lakdawalla,Anup Malani and Tomas Philipson—released Best of Both Worlds: Uniting Universal Coverage and Personal Choice in Health Care (2013) which also is built around a model of individual health insurance subsidized with income-related tax credits.
Flexible Benefits Tax Credit For Health Insurance by Lynn Etheredge in 2001.
Near-Universal Health Insurance Exchanges proposed in 2001 by Sara Singer, Alan Garber and Alain Enthoven (covers only non-elderly).
Universal Health Insurance Exchanges proposed in 2013 by former CBO director Douglas Holtz-Eakin and Avik Roy (covers Medicare and Medicaid in addition to privately insured).
Too many people conveniently ignore that in his 2007 State of the Union message President Bush proposed a sweeping health reform plan that would have replaced the current tax exclusion for employer-provided coverage with standard tax deductions for all individuals and families. The Bush plan called for a tax deduction that would have applied to payroll taxes as well as income taxes. Moreover, if one were worried about non-filers, the subsidy could easily have instead been structured as a refundable tax credit in which case even those without any income taxes would have gotten an additional amount. This is the kind of policy detail that easily could have been negotiated had the Democrats been in a cooperative mood in 2007. They were not. On the contrary, President Bush’s health plan was declared “dead on arrival” by Democrats in 2007. Yet it is Republicans who were tagged as being uncooperative and intransigent when they resisted the misguided direction that Obamacare seemed to be headed.
What’s sad is that the Bush plan actually was superior to Obamacare when it comes to providing universal coverage. Remember, Obamacare actually does not provided universal coverage. The latest figures from CBO says that when it is fully implemented in 2016, Obamacare will cut the number of uninsured by only 45%, covering 89% of the non-elderly. Even if illegal immigrants are excluded, this percentage rises to only 92%. In contrast, the Bush plan (without a mandate!) would have cut the number of uninsured by 65%. But that’s ancient history. Consider one of the newest market-oriented health reform plans put on the table by Jim Capretta and Douglas Holtz-Eakin. Compared to Obamacare, this plan would cost roughly the same amount yet cover 22% more (8 million!) uninsured. If there’s a superior alternative to the slow-motion train wreck now being implemented, why wouldn’t the President and Democrats in Congress want to seriously consider it as a replacement?
Of course even those willing to acknowledge Bush’s health reform plan then tend to counter with the claim that he wasn’t “serious” about his proposal. It was just a defensive move to defend Republicans in 2008 against the charge that the Republicans didn’t have a plan because they didn’t care about the issue (sound familiar). Those dubious about GWB’s “seriousness” about health reform should do the following thought experiment. Imagine that the Democrats in Congress had passed a bill containing the Bush administration’s health plan–no more, no less. Does anyone seriously believe GWB would have vetoed that bill? If not, I would argue his proposal was a serious one.
You repubs had plenty of time to get your ideas in the ACA, and did. I gave a link that spells them out.
You guys voted NO, but the bill passed and was upheld.
So now that the myth that Republicans haven't had any alternatives is exploded it's back to the myth that they had any input on Obamacare. Dude, they were locked out of the discussion, this is a 100 percent Democrat-owned disaster. Own it.
Look it up for yourself, I gave you a link and you ignored it because you didn't want to admit your own error of FACTS.
My FACT are no myth, or opinion and verifiable.
Okay nice guy that I am, here is the link... AGAIN!!
Republican Ideas Included in the President's Proposal | The White House
Quote:
•Mechanisms to improve quality.
◦(Sources: H.R. 4529, “Roadmap for America's Future Act;” S. 1099, “Patients' Choice Act;” H.R. 3400, Republican Study Group bill; S. 1783, “Ten Steps to Transform Health Care in America Act” (Enzi bill))
Okay nice guy that I am, here is the link... AGAIN!!
Republican Ideas Included in the President's Proposal | The White House
Quote:
•Mechanisms to improve quality.
◦(Sources: H.R. 4529, “Roadmap for America's Future Act;” S. 1099, “Patients' Choice Act;” H.R. 3400, Republican Study Group bill; S. 1783, “Ten Steps to Transform Health Care in America Act” (Enzi bill))
Doing nothing as republicans have done since they retook the house in 2010 is no longer a good option (and never was.).
Try and keep up, you have had 3 years to read the law.
Um, wow that's some list. Undoubtedly the Dems were extremely open to Republican input.
So the Dems cherry-picked a few things that weren't enough to get even ONE Republican vote. Strangely though you can't see the disconnect between arguing in one post that Republicans have no ideas and then arguing they did in the next. Meanwhile, it is still a 100 percent Democrat disaster, own it.
Have you just realised that US too politics is a good ploy, when you don't know what to do let the opposition tell you what they would do, then cherry pick the best parts. If it fails you can always say, it was your idea
Like that disaster stimulus package the guys voted against until a camera and a big fat check showed up. Then it was "See what I did!".
of course, we have a good example of it here at the moment with a boosted education program that last week the goverment said was a shambles put in place by the former government
Ted Kennedy, Richard Nixon and Universal Health Care | Everyday Citizen
George W. Bush on Health CareQuote:
After Nixon won the elections, Kennedy began secret negotiations with the White House that almost led to an agreement on a health care plan. Nixon introduced his Comprehensive Health Insurance Act on Feb. 6, 1974. It would've built upon existing employer-sponsored insurance plans and would've provided government subsidies to the self-employed and small businesses to ensure universal access to health insurance. Sadly, the Watergate scandal derailed Nixon and Kennedy's efforts at health care reform...............Thirty five years after Nixon made his proposals for universal health care reform, President Obama is making similar proposals for reform on our health care system. Like Nixon, Obama would build upon the present health care system to provide universal access to health care. Obama would agree with Nixon statement on February 5, 1974, which Nixon stated that he did not want to see "other families of modest means... driven, basically to bankruptcy because of the inability to handle medical care problems of a catastrophic type."
Nixon's and Obama's reform proposals are not radical changes to the current health care system, and neither are socialist. As Steve Pearlstein notes, the past 30 years has seen the political center to the right after the Presidency of Ronald Reagan, and proposals that would be moderate in Nixon's time seem more radical today. Obama and today's progressives need to push the political center more to the left again, to be able to define the debate on progressive reforms on more fair terms. I'm not a fan of Richard Nixon, but his advocacy of health care reform is something that many people can support. If someone like Nixon has advocated universal health care proposals that are similar to Obama's, then it should show people that those proposals aren't socialist, but work to improve the capitalist system of its flaws.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/ma...anted=all&_r=0
Republican presidents have been wanting ACA for decades, but the democrat finally got it. And its conservatives that are mad. I was right, modern right wingers have lost their friggin mind.Quote:
Another asked if Scully was worried about Congressional repeal. “It's just not going to happen,” he said. “Don't pay attention to Rush Limbaugh.” When Scully finally began his speech, he noted that the prevailing narrative among Republicans — assuming that many in the room were, like him, Republican — was incorrect. “It's not a government takeover of medicine,” he told the crowd. “It's the privatization of health care.” In fact, Obamacare, he said, was largely based on past Republican initiatives. “If you took George H. W. Bush's health plan and removed the label, you'd think it was Obamacare.”
Debate over!!
it would seem soQuote:
I was right, modern right wingers have lost their friggin mind.
CORRECTION
Went back and checked, they have always been loony. Not sure how long but as far back as I can remember.
They got louder though.
Of course we got louder. Its because we can not accept your revisionist view of history. What Obamacare is doing is involving the government by threat of arrest into the healthcare system. That has nothing to do with what was proposed by Nixon or Bush. Its amazing how far the fog has sunk in to the brains of the sheeple that they would rather live the lie then accept the truth.
Show me the threat of arrest then tell me who the revision it is.
Is this what you are referring to Tal
Quote:
ObamaCare Myth: You Will Go to Jail If You Don't Pay the Fee for Not Buying Health Insurance
The only way for the IRS to collect the fee for not having health insurance, if you choose not to pay it, is for them to withhold the money you would get back from the IRS after filing your income tax returns. The IRS cannot enforce the Individual Shared Responsibility provision with jail time, liens, or any other of typical methods of collection.
Thank you Clete and just to add the fines don't even start until 2015, 3 months of 2014 are excluded from compliance. So you don't even have to have insurance until March of 2014, later if you have you had insurance for the beginning of the year.
And yet you have no issue with fining people for not buying a product?
Hello again, Steve:
Yeah... I'd much rather pay for Obamacare by limiting how much a medical provider can make.Quote:
And yet you have no issue with fining people for not buying a product?
In fact, I'd much rather pay for it by NATIONALIZING the entire industry... That way our financial/medical crisis would be OVER. I don't use that word lightly.. It would be OVER in ONE FELL SWOOP!!! Wouldn't that be good?? We'd EVEN have money left over to buy 3, maybe 4 aircraft carriers...
Why do you righty's want to SAVE the medical industry at the EXPENSE of our country... Makes NO sense to a fellow like me.
Now, you DO, of course, realize that I'm NOT a socialist.. I'd RATHER the medical industry worked for US, like it used to. But, it doesn't. The ENTIRE industry is interested in PROFITS more than SERVICE... No, it wouldn't bother me a BIT to nationalize them.. What have they done for ME, except to BANKRUPT my country?????
excon
A product only because its sold on the free market by private companies that protects you and your health issues from the rest of us, and mine from you. Like seat belts, you get fined for not wearing them.
The old seat belt straw man, that was to be expected. Driving is a privilege, you shouldn't get fined for existing, dude.
By the way, I just learned this morning that our "affordable" health insurance is getting considerably more expensive and we're losing dental. That's your idea of "fairness," screwing people over who have been responsible and did nothing to deserve you making us poorer.
Hello again, Steve:
You're losing the argument one family at a time. Here's another FOX lie that you probably believe.
You saw THE BABY IS NOT COVERED hysteria over on FOX, didn't you?? Bwa, ha ha ha ha.
Step away from the TV, Steve. It's rotting your brain.
excon
I don't recall ever mentioning that horror story so save that for someone else. That seems to be a real problem with you and Tal, you keep arguing based on stuff we've never said or positions we've never taken. What I DID say was this:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Quote:
By the way, I just learned this morning that our "affordable" health insurance is getting considerably more expensive and we're losing dental. That's your idea of "fairness," screwing people over who have been responsible and did nothing to deserve you making us poorer.
The fines won't get paid , nor will they be enough to prevent the death spiral . Kids aint stupid .They are not going to sign up in droves for this plunder of their scarce resources ..Right now the ratio is about 50:1 for people being dropped from their coverage because of the Obamacare mandates ,compared to new enrollees (mostly Medicaid ) .
Yeah I was pissed when my employee contributions for health insurance went up way before Obama care. I didn't blame Reagan though, I blamed the boss, and my union since we only got a .05 cent hourly wage increase.
Hmmm I also remember Reagan waving a paper showing all the new jobs he had created which turned out to be low paying fast food jobs. I also remember paying big bucks out of my pocket that took 3 years to pay off because the company provided insurance went bankrupt. I didn't blame Reagan I blamed the boss, and thanked the union for much needed support during a lousy time.
In time though I understood the boss was catching his own hell because of a recession, or economic downturn if you will. Back then the minimum wage was less than 4 bucks, but it bought a lot more.
Hello again, Steve:
Let's put this "poor misjudged ME" crap to rest.. It's called EUPHEMISM. When we say "you", it's NOT you personally, Steve. We LIKE you. It's the right wingers who actually DID say it that we hate.Quote:
That seems to be a real problem with you and Tal, you keep arguing based on stuff we've never said or positions we've never taken.
What??? You don't do it TOO???? Come on, Man!
excon
It's not the boss' fault, your guy was emphatically clear that we could keep our insurance and the cost would go DOWN, in spite of the bullsh*t lies still being spewed by the regime and idiots like Harry Reid, who by the way will be the only Senator to keep that promise for his staffers.Quote:
Yeah I was pissed when my employee contributions for health insurance went up way before Obama care. I didn't blame Reagan though, I blamed the boss, and my union since we only got a .05 cent hourly wage increase.
This is a DIRECT result of this crap sandwich called "affordable care" and it's ANYTHING but fair.
Did you read where I came to understand the bosses perspective? Just as I understand yours.
I fail to see how that helps me pay the bills next year.
Hello again, Steve:If you have insurance provided by your employer, you can keep it. Of course, that doesn't mean the insurance company, or your employer are required to keep YOU.Quote:
I fail to see how that helps me pay the bills next year.
Having said that, if you're employed, you're NOT gonna lose your health care. If you do, you'll PROBABLY be able to get on on the exchange, and buy a policy for LESS money. Of course, if your employer drops you, HE'S the one cutting your income - NOT Obama. Talk to him...
Your costs should only got up if you're a high income earner. I don't wanna know how much you make, but you're the one who uses YOU and your family as examples...
So, irrespective of what FOX news says, DID you lose your own personal insurance?? If you did, did you shop for one at the exchange??? Why are YOUR bills going up??? Mine aren't going up.
excon
PS> (edited) You should excuse me if you've already TOLD us that you LOST your insurance. I can't keep up..
I have negotiated more than a few deals to get by until things got better. Survive until you can thrive. Life is what it is. I am in the same boat you are.Quote:
I also remember paying big bucks out of my pocket that took 3 years to pay off because the company provided insurance went bankrupt. I didn't blame Reagan I blamed the boss, and thanked the union for much needed support during a lousy time.
Just reporting the facts, I didn't stutter and I said it twice.
So the law was designed to protect the uninsured and the people with pre-existing conditions . However ,the law of the land before Obamacare ,and dating back to 1996 prevented employer based plans ,Medicare ,and Medicaid from dropping people with pre existing conditions . For the people who had preexisting conditions and no employer plan ,there were subsidized high risk pools established in most states .
Obamacare mandates that these close at the end of the month .
These patients must now enroll in the exchanges. The problem is that many of the plan on the exchanges exclude doctors, specialty cancer centers, and hospitals where these patients are being treated . State commissions across the country are trying desperately to delay the closure of the high risk pools.
Texas postpones closure of high-risk health insurance pool - San Antonio Express-News
These are patients who face a situation where even the slightest delay in treatment could be deadly . Yet to my knowledge ,the emperor has not addressed this issue. He has some fantasy that they can just get on the web ;sign up and get the same quality treatment that could be the difference between life and death on the exchanges .
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