Let's try it and see.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
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Let's try it and see.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
If you mean making the 47% pay their fair share, I'm all for it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
If you mean the already overtaxed wealthy, I'd rather not... the current administration has made such a mess of things as it is... doing that will guarantee businesses will close, and/or move offshore. And when that happens... its not going to reverse any time soon. And if you think its bad now... just wait. I'm not rich by any stretch... but you can make it bad enough I will take it overseas... and that is significantly NOT an obsticle for those with lots of money. And when that happens... you lose that tax base... since the top 10% pays 70% now... that is VERY significant.
Forget it WG, conservatives blast any ideas that they don't believe in. That's exactly why NOTHING gets done. That's why they tell that tall tale about the 47% that DON'T pay taxes, when ALL the evidence says they do.
There whole agenda is keeping them in power so they can keep the world they love and are comfortable with intact. That's why they protest in the streets, both young and old, and repeal the policies that are clearly unfair to the many, in many states where New republican Governors try to usurp rights, and steal more money so they can appease their corporate masters.
They may be the loudest crowd around, but I think its clear that the rest of us are tired of being tinkled on... I mean trickled on. Facts mean nothing to a conservative, because self preservation by any means necessary is there true agenda, and telling everyone who disagrees with them they have no value is the means they perpetrate this agenda.
They simply cannot count, and don't feel they have to, because fair is not the agenda, subjugation is. Haven't they proven it by their rhetoric? Aimed at everyone BUT themselves.
Um, they're the ones who've lost their jobs because the wealthy corporate owners took the jobs overseas, moved offshore, moved their plants to Mexico to find cheap labor. They'd be glad to pay their fair share if they had paychecks.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
LMAO!! Overtaxed wealthy?? Leaving?? I DARE YOU!! I DOUBLE DARE YOU!!Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
Smoothy why don't you leave now? Where would you go? Europe? Australia? They will all tax you more but they will give you more in return
I doubt they leave Clete, and there is nothing you have that we don't have for the really rich guys here. But you can have them all.
America, love it, or leave it! WOW I sound like a righties!!
Tal, don't get me wrong, we don't want them, we have our own crop of billionaires and millionaires and I'll say this for them, they stay out of our face. Some, like that idiot Hogan, get chased by the tax boys but generally they pay their tax and don't complain when the rates change
Our rich guys have politicians to do their bidding for them.
And of course you reasonably consider the ones we do.Quote:
conservatives blast any ideas that they don't believe in
Update... some lawyer union group got an injunction against NYC ;but a state judge smacked them down .
Now the OWS has the right to protest just like everyone else does... which means go home at the end of the day. (hint... a good time to use daddy's shower)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
"Every civilization collapses the same way"
A massive generalization and absolute nonsense.
Civilizations have collapsed for a variety of reasons. Some causes have absolutely nothing to do with the fault of its citizens. For example, natural disasters, protracted wars, invasion, rapid climate change. In many cases there is no historians agreement as to the actual causes of the decline of some civilizations.
This nonsense being his initial premise the rest of his argument tends to follow suit.
We don't have to chop wood and hunt because corporations do these unpleasant things for us? NO, we don't have to do these things because this is the level of sophistication we are born into.
Should we be grateful that corporations purify our water? Does he mean in the same way Hobbes' Leviathan tells us we should be grateful to the sovereign power for giving us self protection in exchange for giving up our freedoms and liberties?
Should we be grateful when corporations demand their rights under personhood and seek to pay massive amounts of money to politicians? Should we also be grateful when corporations seek to influence local laws and regulations that are seen as an impediment to 'its' (sorry, him/her's) progress.
Bill Whittle needs to get out of the 16th century and have a look at modern ideas of social contract theory.
Tom, you keep telling us to be on the lookout for the Leviathan. I think you are giving excellent advice. The only problem is you are looking for it in the wrong place.
Tut
Tom is like all conservatives he wants it all his own way, which means no change to the established order.
The occupiers got kicked out, but they came back, without the tents, but they came back. Not over by any means.
Hi Clete,Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Yes, no change to the establish order.
On that basis Tom might be happy with opening the flood gates for a corporate exploitation of the 14 Amendment.
Corporations have vast amounts of money and resources so it shouldn't be a problem squeezing every little bit out of the this particular amendment to advance the interests of the artificial person.
In keeping with the theme of this particular thread and to answer Steve's question ( not an easy thing to do with such a confused and lawless rabble). But, the one demand of the OWS movement should be to reign in the power of the corporate Leviathan.
Isn't that what they are really protesting about? On the other hand, perhaps they should do a Bill Whittle and go home and be grateful for corporations.
Tut
Yup, (or at least the way the government has distorted capitalism with it's regulations designed to pick winners in the market place ;and to command and control the economy ), and it should be conducted in Washington DC ;not on the streets of NY and Oakland. The reason those protests have had any traction is because those cities are run by lib weenies.Quote:
But, the one demand of the OWS movement should be to reign in the power of the corporate Leviathan.
Isn't that what they are really protesting about?
Please... we've seen how these protesters ,left to their own resources devolved into 'Lord of the Flies ' savages .Quote:
We don't have to chop wood and hunt because corporations do these unpleasant things for us? NO, we don't have to do these things because this is the level of sophistication we are born into.
Ask the libs. The 14th amendment has been the key addition that propelled the US into a 20th century nanny-state (that and judicial activism that decided a farmer didn't have the right to grow wheat for his own personal use ).Quote:
On that basis Tom might be happy with opening the flood gates for a corporate exploitation of the 14 Amendment.
Would I like the 14th amendment amended ? Absolutely .It is singularily responsible for the massive influx of illegal aliens .
Governments have always distorted capitalism, ever since the time of Adam Smith. That has always been a given.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
There might be winners and losers when it comes to small business. You are not going to try and tell me multinationals are ever going to be losers in the face of regulation?
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder
Lord of the Flies is just Hobbes revisited. So you support the nonsense expounded by Bill Whittle in the link?
Tut
No what I contend is that the regulations set up the conditions where multinationals and large so called too big to fail corporations exist.Quote:
There might be winners and losers when it comes to small business. You are not going to try and tell me multinationals are ever going to be losers in the face of regulation?
It's a chicken and egg thing. Left to their own devices corporations have to compete with all comers and let the best one win. But increased regulations drive out the smaller competitors because the costs of compliance become prohibitive . Then the larger companies gobble up the market share and take advantage of the reduced competition.
Where you get it right is the relationship that emerges between these large companies and the government . Where you get it wrong is the cause .
Now why would I have posted it otherwise ?Quote:
So you support the nonsense expounded by Bill Whittle in the link?
Dems were quick to criticize the eviction of course, but I just want to highlight one Democrat's comment:
Rep. John Larson (D-Conn.), a prominent supporter of the Occupy Wall Street activists, said Bloomberg’s move is no threat to the larger movement, which he characterized as “the embodiment of the frustrations of the American people.”
Much, much larger segments of America protested an overreaching government and they were mocked, criticized, insulted, called every nasty thing in the book - and that was just by elected Democrats. But a small group of malcontents that can't make up their mind what their "one demand" is embody the frustrations of the American people? Yeah, whatever, Americans are all ready to blow up Macy's and burn down New York (content warning):
Hello again, Steve:
50 years ago a movement got underway that changed the world.. In the beginning, people called them names too. They said they were dirty.. They said they were socialists/anarchists/rapists, too..
But, change the world, they did. This one will too. Hang on for the ride of your life.
excon
There was one in 1917 too... its clear that one turned out splendedly.
In honor of your nostalgia /bad trip flash back...
Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
Four dead in Ohio.
Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are cutting us down
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know?
How long did it take before Woodstock turned into ugly Altamont Free Concert ?
Edit... just remembered a better anthem...
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
LOL, so you think the big guys gobble up the little guys because of regulations? That's an interesting assertion since they have been doing it for decades, and the GOP presidential hopefuls have specifically pointed to this present administrations regulations as a job killer. But back to the occupiers and your assertion they should occupy Washington, and not New York,
'Occupy DC' Allowed To Keep Occupying Washington Park | Fox News
Where have you been? Its all over America, not just in NY.
So you're OK with burning down the city?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Just like you're for throwing your trash into the air.
excon
I know so . When it gets cost prohibitive to run a business the owners make the best deal they can make selling their business to the bigger company... or they just bailout.Quote:
LOL, so you think the big guys gobble up the little guys because of regulations?
Hello tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Maybe that's how the BIG guys do it, but I don't have a golden parachute, and I need to keep my company going... You're right about regulations, though.. I HATE 'em, and they cost me x dollars to comply. But, they've ALWAYS been there, and always will. I don't see a cascade of 'em coming my way like you're talking about. In the final analysis, whatever they are, they're simply a cost of doing business, like rent.
Besides, if I gave up every time some bureaucrat gave me sh!t, I'd have been toast long ago... Fortunately, demand is up for my business.. That's the only barometer I go by. It's the only barometer ANY businessman my size goes by.
excon
Sometimes they just get prohibitive .Quote:
In the final analysis, whatever they are, they're simply a cost of doing business, like rent.
If I wanted to do a start up like Jobs in a small facility in my business I could've done so 25 years ago. Now... impossible . I'd have to secure all types of up front cash just to do the lab work... capital that newbees just don't have . I'd also have to upfront hire well salaried people to staff my regulatory office with so many new regs that have come down in just the last decade .
Look ;there was already a respiratory infection going around the NYC encampment .Quote:
Lord of the Flies is just Hobbes revisited. So you support the nonsense expounded by Bill Whittle in the link?
Perhaps Mayor Bloomy should've let these fools endure a nor-easter in January... let's see if they have the fortitude and will power of the patriots at the Valley Forge encampment; or if Whittle is correct .
And I'm sure like everyone else you pass those "costs of doing business" on to the customer. And our good friend in the White House thinks that's OK even though it won't hurt the "1 percent," it will hurt me.
Remember when he said "Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket"? He knows - and quite often it is the intent - that regulations make things much more expensive.
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Oh, it's true... They make some things more expensive, like polluting... doncha think that should be more expensive?? You breath too. Then there's the ones that make things LESS expensive, like milk, and gasoline. I don't hear you sniveling about those.
excon
Subsidies are another subject. But am I right, you pass those costs along to the customer?
You mean subsidies or price supports ? I'm clear in my opposition to those too.Quote:
Then there's the ones that make things LESS expensive, like milk, and gasoline. I don't hear you sniveling about those.
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
When the price of paper goes up, I pass it on to my customer.. When the price of ink goes up, I pass it on to my customer. When ANY of my costs go up, I pass it on to my customer... Prices have been going up since the beginning. What's your point? Are you now a consumer advocate?
excon
You're a smart guy, you know the point. You said regulations are "simply a cost of doing business, like rent." If you pass those costs on to me they become my expenses, not yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
And those subsidies price supports or whatever, let's start with ending them for ethanol.
And no more regulations on milk?
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Isn't it a right wing argument that CORPORATE taxes are not born by corporations?? It's TRUE.. ALL business's pass the cost of doing business on to their customers.. Or, at least, they try to. Some can't, and fail.
Now, you COULD blame the cost of regulations, or you COULD blame the cost of office supplies. They ALL go up... They always have.
But, you're not the spender of last resort... You, too, like any entity in the economy, pass those costs on. You DO renegotiate your salary now and then, don't you?
excon
Milk needs regulations . What it doesn't need is price supports. Every product containing milk in this country is over priced due to Federal meddling in the market.
They also pass loss revenues on to us also. For example when the price of gas raises food costs or ticket prices. Or the lack of demand makes them produce less, but charge more for what they do produce.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Cap and trade was designed way back in the day to allow high polluters with the ability to but credits against cost from lower polluters. Thus providing a revenue stream for low polluters, and savings in costs for high polluters as the develop ways to get those cost down themselves, through technology development, or upgrades in older equipment for which they get credits for.
What Does "Cap and Trade" Mean?
Emissions trading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And this is a very interesting thing to know about the current conflicts under this administration.
Obama's Cap-and-Trade Plan - BusinessWeek
As we see the coal producing power plants don't want to enrich the other low emissions producers. Just notice who is for it, and whose not, and the reasons for their positions. Just as a side note Steve, check out the new plants being built in Texas to eliminate the older ones.
Fuel Fix Texas power plant gets first greenhouse gas permit from EPA
Texas Electric Power Plants and the New EPA Emission Limit - Power to Choose - ZimbioQuote:
The EPA seized the state’s authority to regulate the largest industrial sources of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases last year. Texas is the only state that has refused to implement new nationwide rules and has filed suit to block them.
It should be noted that the Texas heat makes pollution emissions dangerous to humans and animals as it activates these emissions in the air. We had that air quality talk before, of which its decidedly different in Amarillo, and is a big deal in Dallas/Fort Worth.Quote:
The EPA however, made clear that power plants still have up to March of 2013 to comply with the requirements without incurring any serious penalties. The agency believes that this provides enough time for these power plants to prepare and gradually reduce emission levels. Still, politicians and power plant operators still express doubts on whether full compliance to this new regulation can be achieved.
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