I agree that there has to be a limit Chuck, but with gay marriage? What's the harm?
Sex before 16 can be harmful, so can marriage before a certain age, but there is no harm in gay marriage.
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I agree that there has to be a limit Chuck, but with gay marriage? What's the harm?
Sex before 16 can be harmful, so can marriage before a certain age, but there is no harm in gay marriage.
There is the rub! Who's morality are we talking about?Quote:
And there can not nor should there be "complete" freedom from morality, since there has to be a limit at some point
I'm curious to know that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Also, what does morality have to do with two people that love each other getting married? I thought that was a moral act.
I agree Tal. I don't think this is just an issue of morality. I think this is more of an issue understanding, and empathy for gay people, to have the same rights under the law as others. Some may not agree, but people who are BORN gay, deserve to be recognised and be able to live a happy and fulfilling life, just like anyone else.
I have met several gay people in my life, and came to realise that they all put on their socks and shoes just as we do. They are not "freaks of nature", as some of them are seen and treated as such.
We have had young children commit suicide because they thought they were living in the wrong body, and were ostrasized (sp) by others... children and adults alike.
I think morality needs to start with compassion for the young children that are faced with this. How do you tell a young child, that what he or she is feeling is wrong?
Just on a personal note. I'm a straight heterosexal female. I once knew a man where I worked, in a professional setting. He was incredibly handsome, and didn't fit the stereo-typical role of a "gay" male. He had all of the hot woman clamouring around him. I couldn't figure out why he was always "dateless" when we would go out to the bar, or other social events. I found that he seemed very uncomfortable in social settings. He would get up and dance and socialize with the girls, but it was obvious he wasn't himself.
One day I got up the nerve to ask him if he was gay. At first he denied it, but both he and I knew he was lying. When he admitted it, he felt so ashamed, and was so afraid that he would lose me as a friend, because now I was one of the very few that knew. Others had left him when they found out. They quite obviously were not friends.
Fast forward several yrs. Stuart and I remained very good friends. We hung out all of the time, and he was always the type of person that just wanted everyone else to have fun and be happy. He was in a few short lived relationships, and I know that is because he was afraid of being made fun of.
Well, Stuart was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. (same thing Patrick Swayze has) It was in it's later stages. I went to many of his Dr.'s appt's with him, and sat with him in the hospital, while he was hooked up to all sorts of machines and tubes. He didn't live long after the diagnosis. It was heartbreaking!
Does anyone want to guess what the rumour around town was when he died? Go ahead, take a guess? Of course!. he MUST have died of AIDS right? What a wonderful send off for him!
So if we are going to talk morality here, lets think about how moral that was, and then we'll talk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I don't agree with this.How is sex before 16 harmful?
The legal age for marriage in most countries is 16, in some Asian countries its 14
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Even though I agree that same sex marriages should have exactly the same rights as any other marriage.but the same arguments that are made for same sex marriages could be made for polygamy.
Society has to draw a line, but that line is based upon morality Which morality you ask, the morality of the majority, since we live in a democratic society.
You mean YOUR morality according to YOUR religion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Hello again:
I read the Constitution. The word "moral" isn't in there. You'd think that if the government was supposed to DO something about morals, the Constitution would say so.
It doesn't.
Those founders were pretty smart guys. If they wanted MORAL laws, they would have said so.
They didn't.
Therefore, ALL laws based upon the Christian idea of morality, are UNCONSTITUTIONAL, and should be consigned to the dustbin of history.
Let freedom ring!
excon
Quote:
One day I got up the nerve to ask him if he was gay. At first he denied it, but both he and I knew he was lying. When he admitted it, he felt so ashamed, and was so afraid that he would lose me as a friend, because now I was one of the very few that knew. Others had left him when they found out. They quite obviously were not friends.
Now, THIS is immoral. For a society to shun you or for you to feel ashamed of who you are, or afraid that friends will drop you if you admit your truth. This is so wrong!
That's only partly true, as we all cannot be denied equal protection under the law. No matter who you live with, and what you do with them. Being a democratic society is precisely why the majority cannot dictate morality to the minority.Quote:
Society has to draw a line, but that line is based upon morality Which morality you ask, the morality of the majority, since we live in a democratic society.
While the law cannot dictate what a church does in its own religion, it can give its citizens the same rights shared by all. If one church will marry gay people, and another will not, so be it, as that has nothing to do with law, but city hall should not have a choice to discriminate, and favor one set of beliefs over another, but that's just my opinion. That goes for tax discrimination between marrieds, and singles, and deductions for dependents. Its made to favor people who are married, and should not say who can marry, and who can't. Just my opinion again.
You're kidding, right? Well, a 16 year old is not physically, emotionally, financially old enough to have a child, and we all know that sex produces children. Are you saying that you would be okay with a 15 year old girl having sex? Wow! Now that's morally wrong.Quote:
don't agree with this.How is sex before 16 harmful?
I am not kidding, as I said before the legal age to get married in almost all countries is 16.Could you please point me to any scientific studies that show that have sex while you are 16 is harmful, I can point you out to a lot which says that it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Please do point us to this information!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by starbuck8
Legal age for marriage link.
Let me try to find the link for the scientific studies, I have hard copies. Hopefully I can find the links too
You show me yours, I'll show you mine. I never said it was illegal, I said it was morally wrong. That's your argument against gay marriage, so tell me, do you think it's morally right for a 16 year old to marry? Forget about legalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
Again, if you had a daughter, would you allow her to have sex at 16 years of age? Would you think it's morally right to let her marry? If so, then we have nothing further to discuss.
Gay marriage between two consenting adults is more moral then marrying off a 16 year old child!
Physically harmful, no. Emotionally harmful, yes. There are studies about that. Academically harmful, yes. That's obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
Have you looked around and talked with 16 y/os in the U.S. Many are thinking of college and a career, not a family. Sex makes babies. The culture in the U.S. does not prepare 16 y/os to be parents. It's preparing them to be productive adults. In other countries the culture is entirely different because 16 y/os are often considered adults there.
Morality differs from culture to culture, I am sure you know this, my mother was married to my father when she was 16. That is the cultural norm in Pakistan, hence it is moral in Pakistan to for teenagers at 16 to get married. It is illegal and morally wrong here to marry your cousins, in most Muslim countries it is moral and not illegal to marry your cousin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
So we can't have a society based on your moral as I said before, it is the morals of the majority that we have to live by.
This is the argument I was using for gay marriages.
I don't have children now and I don't know if I would have a problem with her having sex or getting married at 16. In by the way even if I did I wold not answer this question as it is personal, We can have a general discussion here and I am sure we can have that discussion without bringing my whole family in it
I agree. I thought we were talking about 16 year old from around the world not just from the U.S.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I agree, and just because the "law" says it's legal, doesn't make it moral. That IS what we were talking about here wasn't it? I don't need any scientific research to tell me that children that are not yet even at the age of consent, do not yet understand the consequences of their actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
It is however a scientific and medical fact, that your brain does not fully develop, until you are well into your 20's. Therefore, I would have to conclude that having sex at the age of 16 or younger, could be detrimental to the teens involved.
As far as I'm concerned, and this is my opinion, any country who allows children as young as 14 years of age to marry and have sex, is child abuse!
Then according to you the legal age for marriage should be in our 20's ? And if a 29 years old marries a 19 year old it should be considered child abuse?Quote:
Originally Posted by starbuck8
If we don't need any scientific studies, then all we would be doing is enforcing our morals on other.
We aren't talking about Pakistan, we're talking about the US and making Gay marriage legal there. I live in Canada, we already allow Gay marriage. Are you saying that Canadians have no morals, or maybe we're just more open minded than most.
You are the one that brought the moral issue into this game. As Excon stated, the constitution says nothing about morals. Too many people with differing ideas, we shouldn't consider morals when deciding on legalities.
Bottom line, who does it hurt to allow Gay marriage? Does it effect you? I doubt it. No one here has said that churches have to allow Gay marriages, nor do they (that are supposed love all man kind and accept all man kind) have to accept gays into their church. That is their right, no one is going to take that away from them.
But, why should Gays not have the same rights as the rest of us? Just because they love someone of the same sex? Do you really think they would choose that course? Why would anyone choose something that would ostersize them from society? It's not a choice it's who they are, therefore they should be allowed the same rights as any other human being on this planet.
Like it or lump it, you brought morality into this, and that shouldn't even be considered.
Nope, wrong. Sadly, the law is written that most people can legally marry at at least 18 years of age. Should they? Probably not, most of these young marriages don't last, that's a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
Once again, you brought up morals, we just responded in kind.
Check out gay divorces versus straight divorces. Want to bet who has a higher divorce rate?
Also, a 29 year old and 19 year old are considered adults, not children. If you can't vote, should you marry? Obviously you're not considered an adult until 18 years of age. So why should 16 year olds be allowed to marry? Doesn't make sense.
A 20 year old would not be a child would he/she. A 16 year old is still a child, according to all medical/scientific research, and when they reach the age of maturity and adulthood. This has little to do with morals. This is a matter of fact. I was stating that it is a medical fact that the human brain does not fully mature until into the 20's, and therefore so of the area's of the brain do not yet have the full capacity to understand repercussions, and choices that are made before their brain has fully developed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
But, this thread is about "Gay Marriage," and not the issue of someone else's "moral standards."
Exactly. But the people against Gay marriage only have their so called "morals" to offer as a reason to ban Gay marriage.Quote:
But, this thread is about "Gay Marriage," and not the issue of someone else's "moral standards."
I hope I live to see the day that people can accept other people for who and what they are. Maybe the next generation will be more understanding, more "blind" to all of these issues. Until then, let's hope that the people who already understand that being Gay, black, chinese, whatever, doesn't define who you are, can make enough of a difference to make this world a better place to live in, for all the people who live in it.
Everyone should be able to live in the body they were born in. It's society that imposes their morals and way of thinking, on others. It doesn't mean we all need to agree or conform. People should be allowed to live a happy and productive life, no matter what lifestyle they choose, the color of their skin, or their religion. However, this should not be imposed or pushed down the throats of others who have different beliefs. Is it a point of contention for many, when we are trying to convince someone that white is white, and black is black --in a general sense, and not concerning ethnicticity--it is often hard for some very conservative people to swallow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Did I just morph into a politician there? ;) haha.
What about the fact that you have not matured to a stage that you fully comprehend the fall out when you end up making a baby or with some life long disease. Sure, this happens to older people too but chances are, the younger you are, the less life experiences to reflect on, and the less capable you are to handle the consequences that sex could bring.. Do you know a 16 year old that has finished their education, has the ability to bring to a home that baby home to a place that the 16 yr old owns? Feed, it cloth it, put it in daycare while you work since you have to get money some way. Do you know a 16 yr old that is ready to settle down? Has their career up and going? Just because some countries allow marriage at 16 doesn't take away from the disasters that it could bring. Would you like to be the child of a 16 year old couple?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
Please do point out the studies that show that it is not harmful.
I'm also awaiting the studies! Can we say "Octumum"? Okay, this is a different discussion, and this woman has serious issues, but a 16 yr. old that is "in loooove" does not have the capability to see around corners.
I am trying to find a link. I do have a job and family that I like to spend time with.Be patientQuote:
Originally Posted by starbuck8
[QUOTE=Altenweg;1575717]Nope, wrong. Sadly, the law is written that most people can legally marry at at least 18 years of age. Should they? Probably not, most of these young marriages don't last, that's a fact.
Once again, you brought up morals, we just responded in kind.
Check out gay divorces versus straight divorces. Want to bet who has a higher divorce rate?
All I said was morals differ from society to society, which is true.I was replying to your statement that it is immoral for a 16 year old to have sex or ,emotionally not suitable I guess is the right word, you still have not given be any scientific studies that prove this??
Unless you do, these are just your opinions, what you think is right.( YOUR MORALS).A19 year is considered an adult in society not by science.Science says that adults comletly mature around 20 years old
It is however a scientific and medical fact, that your brain does not fully develop, until you are well into your 20's. . ( Starbucks 8)
I am not arguing for or against gay marriages. I saw your statement which said that sex before 16 is harmful, which I think is wrong.
g? Just because some countries allow marriage at 16 doesn't take away from the disasters that it could bring. Would you like to be the child of a 16 year old couple?
Please do point out the studies that show that it is not harmful.[/QUOTE]
Almost all countries marriage at 16 is legal. You can check the Wikipedia article that I have provided above
Quote:
Until then, let's hope that the people who already understand that being Gay, black, chinese, whatever, doesn't define who you are
Being Black or Asian or Hispanic or white or male or female or young or oold or fat or skinny for that matter - DOES define who you are. It is defined biologically. Different races and genders are predisposed to getting certain illnesses due to their race or gender.
People can SEE the difference.
It is blindness not to acknowledge this.
It is the first step to recognizing individual differences, and that we all don't have to look, think, act alike to get along.
You can't compare homosexuality. You can't "SEE" it when you pass someone on the street. They have to let you know. A woman can't be in the closet about the gender and neither can a black or Asian or Hispanic person.
G&P
I'm german, I bet you wouldn't be able to tell looking at me. I'm also heterosexual, but can you tell? I doubt it.Quote:
You can't compare homosexuality. You can't "SEE" it when you pass someone on the street. They have to let you know. A woman can't be in the closet about the gender and neither can a black or Asian or Hispanic person.
Your argument makes no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare81
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Almost all countries marriage at 16 is legal. You can check the Wikipedia article that I have provided above
When are you going to provide the link to the studies that say sex at 16 is fine?
Quote:: You can't compare homosexuality. You can't "SEE" it when you pass someone on the street. They have to let you know. A woman can't be in the closet about the gender and neither can a black or Asian or Hispanic person.
This is not an entirely true statement all all, although this discussion is not about race, or ethnicity. You would be shocked at how well a male or female can hide their gender. You would also be very surprised at the number of Black, Asian, or Hispanic people that you would never have a clue they were of that race.
With that said, we don't need to pull out the race card here. This discussion is about Gay Marriage. This has really gone off topic.
Even thought I can't find an online link to this book, the name of the book is
Mr Waites, The Age of Consent: Young People, Sexuality and Citizenship
He is Professor of sociology in Glasgow university Mattew Waites has added his voice to those calling for reduction in the age of consent from 16 to 14 in Britain.Other studies have shown that fixing the age of consent at 16 criminalises above 50% of young people in UK(INTERNATIONAL CHILD AND YOUTH CARE) NETWORK)
I have a couple of other studies but will have to find a link for those too.
A 16 year old is still a child, according to all medical/scientific research, and when they reach the age of maturity and adulthood. This has little to do with morals.
Wrong again.
The fact is that even until the 18th century, reaching puberty meant becoming an “adult”, in terms of maturity, behavior and responsibility, as stated in the Journal of Social History, Online Etymology Dictionary, Journal of Marriage and the Family, and numerous academic references.
· Children now in developing countries now and then faced the daily struggle for physical and economic survival,[] and while this type of “environmental stress” actually causes puberty at a younger age, it is proven to have also speeded psychological maturity. This maturity helped in coping with the responsibilities of early marriage and childbearing.
·It was only in the industrial mid-18th century that psychological maturity started to delay, due to side effects that are proven to delay maturity such as: increasing comforts of life, diminished parental guidance and that “children remained children longer to complete their education
2“Life history theory” states that in a less stable environment, “natural selection will favor individuals that reproduce earlier... within a population
But, this thread is about "Gay Marriage," and not the issue of someone else's "moral standards."[/QUOTE]
Yes I know this thread is about gay marriage but I will say what I said before
I am not arguing for or against gay marriages. I saw ALTANWEG's statement which said that sex before 16 is harmful, which I think is wrong.Hence had to say something
We aren't talking about Pakistan, we're talking about the US and making Gay marriage legal there. I live in Canada, we already allow Gay marriage. Are you saying that Canadians have no morals, or maybe we're just more open minded than most.
WOW.When did I say anything about no morals. All I said is in society the morals of the majority is the one that counts, be it wrong or right.
You are the one that brought the moral issue into this game. As Excon stated, the constitution says nothing about morals. Too many people with differing ideas, we shouldn't consider morals when deciding on legalities.
Bottom line, who does it hurt to allow Gay marriage? Does it effect you? I doubt it. No one here has said that churches have to allow Gay marriages, nor do they (that are supposed love all man kind and accept all man kind) have to accept gays into their church. That is their right, no one is going to take that away from them.
But, why should Gays not have the same rights as the rest of us? Just because they love someone of the same sex? Do you really think they would choose that course? Why would anyone choose something that would ostersize them from society? It's not a choice it's who they are, therefore they should be allowed the same rights as any other human being on this planet.
Like it or lump it, you brought morality into this, and that shouldn't even be considered.[/QUOTE]
I was just talking about sex at 16, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? In by the way gays should have the right to marry,
Dare, what are YOU talking about? She never said gay people shouldn't have the right to marry!
I read your "proof", and decided to not even comment on that cavemans theory, about the age of consent.
You are obviously being very confrontational, and I for one won't deal with you.
Who are you or I to say what other people should do with their lives? As long as they are two consenting adults, what is the issue with any two PEOPLE marrying?
Dare, what are YOU talking about? She never said gay people shouldn't have the right to marry!
I know she didn't.All I am saying is I am talking about sex at 16 not gay marriages.
I read your "proof", and decided to not even comment on that cavemans theory, about the age of consent.
You don't have to comment. It made sense to me.Maybe it does not to you. We each have a right to our opinion
You are obviously being very confrontational, and I for one won't deal with you.[/QUOTE]
I am sorry if I am coming across as confrontational, I am just a little frustrated. I apologize to anyone if I have hurt their feeling
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