Ask Me Help Desk - Curioser and Curioser

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Thus, you totally cancel out the power of the Holy Spirit to work faith in that baby as it grows up, especially with Christian parents and sponsors heavily involved, beginning when I was baptized. I was taught prayers, was read to from children's Bible story books (which I still have), was taken to church and Sunday School every Sunday plus to special servicesand religious activities such as during Lent and Christmas. At 13, after a year of special weekly instruction by the pastor in a class with others my age, I was confirmed and renewed my baptismal vows plus received my first Holy Communion. This is how the Protestants bring up their children, in knowledge and love for the Triune God and in particular for our Savior, Jesus Christ.

I have contested none of that. I have simply pointed out that your idea that infant baptism results in a Christian conversion is found nowhere in the Bible.

Now if, at the age of 13, you confessed your sinful state, repented, and confessed a genuine faith in Christ, then that would be a different story.

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Originally Posted by waltero

You're simply being entertained. You are not listening. Because if you were, you wouldn't be so easily distracted by the never-ending arguments the two of you have been continuously going through for decades.

Your sentences are very convoluted and wander all over the place. Unfortunately, what you write often doesn't make sense. Please use simple sentences with orderly thinking.

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You're simply being entertained. You are not listening.

I read your posts attentively. It's how I know that much of what you post is made up or incorrect. Now if you want to believe otherwise, then go for it.

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Your sentences are very convoluted and wander all over the place.

Sadly true.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have contested none of that. I have simply pointed out that your idea that infant baptism results in a Christian conversion is found nowhere in the Bible.

Now if, at the age of 13, you confessed your sinful state, repented, and confessed a genuine faith in Christ, then that would be a different story.

I had said that the sponsors at a baptism then support the parents in bringing up the child. Infant baptism sets the stage for the child to grow into a life-changing faith.

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You're simply being entertained. You are not listening. Because if you were, you wouldn't be so easily distracted by the never-ending arguments the two of you have been continuously going through for decades.

I assume you are using this as an example. You don't understand what is being said or implied, here?

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wander all over the place

Sadly this holds true for most of the conversations around here.

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Originally Posted by waltero

I assume you are using this as an example. You don't understand what is being said or implied, here?

I do not understand your train of thought that wanders all over the place.

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Sadly this holds true for most of the conversations around here.

Actually, no. I may disagree with other posters but, whether I agree or disagree, at least I know what they have said. I cannot make sense of what you are trying to say. Please post in short, simple sentences.

I just read back on this thread. Most of what you have posted is understandable. But on the Christianity board, not so much!

Yes. Most every conversation gets sidetracked whenever, especially, Hell or some other fudal conversations that you and JL have rehearsed in the past. There have been many times when I said something, something that I researched and found to be solid. Just to have the two of you go off with another one of your crazy arguments. the two of you are so in tune to your own thoughts that you fly off to another world... Off again to one of your old arguments.

That alone shows me that the two of you are only trying to teach. You have no desire to learn anything new. It's all old news.
Almost all Christians think so. Anything that has been discovered or said pertaining to the scriptures has been known. There is nothing new that anybody can come up with. no new understanding, no new revelation. If that is so, then we are all doomed for destruction. The Church is in trouble and if it continues to believe as it does, Jesus is liable to spit it out of his mouth.
Once he spits, there is no coming back!

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I had said that the sponsors at a baptism then support the parents in bringing up the child. Infant baptism sets the stage for the child to grow into a life-changing faith.

Yes, and you are welcome to that view. I'm simply saying that infant baptism is supported nowhere in scripture, and certainly the idea that infants can have saving faith is not supported and would seem to be an absurd idea. If it was true, then surely somewhere in the NT we would read something to the effect of, "Bring your infants into the church that they might be baptized and thus obtain a genuine Christian faith. Don't wait until they're old enough to make their own decisions. Get the job done at three weeks." Strangely, that seems not to be in the Bible.

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There have been many times when I said something, something that I researched and found to be solid.

Could you give a specific example, Walter, of when you have done that? If it's happened "many times", then I have no doubt you can post an example of it.

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Originally Posted by waltero

The Church is in trouble and if it continues to believe as it does, Jesus is liable to spit it out of his mouth.
Once he spits, there is no coming back!

Please explain.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

"Bring your infants into the church that they might be baptized and thus obtain a genuine Christian faith. Don't wait until they're old enough to make their own decisions. Get the job done at three weeks." Strangely, that seems not to be in the Bible.

I never said that! We baptize babies so that they grow in grace. That's why the parents and sponsors (godparents) have such a huge role in the child's life. As 2 Peter 3:18 says, "Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

I asked, "When did you accept Christ as Savior?" You replied in post 90, "At 3 weeks of age. Baptism." You have argued since then that you became a Christian at that point, but you now seem to be saying that infant baptism does not save but rather puts a person on the pathway to salvation. If that is the case, then when did you actually accept Christ as Savior? In other words, at what point did you actually become a Christian?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

In other words, at what point did you actually become a Christian?

Formally, at Confirmation, age 13. Informally, as soon as I understood the Gospel message, probably around the age of 3 or 4.

Are you a Pentecostal?

Pentecostal? No. I am a Christian who believes the Bible is God's word and follows it as God's grace helps me.

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Formally, at Confirmation, age 13. Informally, as soon as I understood the Gospel message, probably around the age of 3 or 4.

That's a sensible answer, though why you didn't say that from the beginning is a mystery. Still, that's fine, but it's confusing considering that about a year ago you claimed, "I was born again when I received the gift of Holy Baptism at the age of three days." Now you can't be born again before your acceptance of Christ and the Christian faith, so that's difficult to resolve. Evidently you see things differently now.

Because I had a pastor as a father, God was always a part of my everyday life, especially when I was a child and teen.

An answer which resolves nothing. How could you be born again at 3 days (weeks?) old, but not accept Christ until 3 or 4 years old? Doesn't make sense.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...25#post3887425

And we can just drop it if you would prefer, but I stay concerned about you with these answers that seem...strange.

Oh, certainly the Holy Spirit is unable to come into the heart of a baby! And a small child certainly can't accept Jesus as its Savior!

Yeah, let's drop it. Maybe I can get Martin Luther (my birthday buddy) to explain it to you in heaven.

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Oh, certainly the Holy Spirit is unable to come into the heart of a baby! And a small child certainly can't accept Jesus as its Savior!

You claimed this happened at 3 days. Can a 3 day old accept Christ? Of course not. It's just an idea that has no grounding in scripture whatsoever. Zero.

Consider it dropped.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You claimed this happened at 3 days. Can a 3 day old accept Christ? Of course not. It's just an idea that has no grounding in scripture whatsoever. Zero.

Consider it dropped.

I had meant 3 weeks back then and had mistyped. I was baptized at 3 weeks. And yes, the Holy Spirit can come into the heart of an infant that age.

Lord what fools these mortals be.

That's what you say but again, it is unsupported by Scripture and so is just your opinion. That's not to say there haven't been some exceptions to that. John the Baptist comes to mind, though his situation was prophesied. Jesus doubtless was filled with the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb as far as I know, though that is never stated. But there are no promises in the Bible of the Holy Spirit filling a baby just because they were baptized at 3 weeks. It's just groundless. You wanting it to be true is not sufficient.

We just have a different approach to truth. You seem to go with whatever seems reasonable and desirable to you. My disposition is much more to lean towards the Bible. It's why we so frequently end up not in agreement.