Just for the record, it's not just a black problem. As long as you think it is, then you effectively divide and conquer and can dismiss the real problems besetting AMERICA. That of class, and the pattern and practice, of segregation, and discrimination.

Why would so many white people be joining the black people protesting police brutality?

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the real problems besetting AMERICA. That of class, and the pattern and practice, of segregation, and discrimination.

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You said it was not just a black problem, and then you list problems that DO seem to be black problems, or at least racial problems, such as segregation and discrimination, so perhaps I don't understand exactly where you're trying to go with this. What exactly, in your view, IS the problem?

You didn't answer my question,

Why would so many white people be joining the black people protesting police brutality?

Must have missed it.

I'm sure at least some of them think it's the right thing to do.

Now for my question. What, in your view, is the real problem to be solved?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'm sure at least some of them think it's the right thing to do.

Now for my question. What, in your view, is the real problem to be solved?

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here's my two cents worth, the problem to be solved is equality, it is a problem that existed for centuries and despite various proclamations has not been truly implemented, the old attitudes of superiority obviously remain, deeply rooted in the culture. Had the africans been free settlers, coming to the americas as others had things might have been different, but manifest destiny for the Europeans to rule remains. the Europeans have continually forced their superiority upon other races, the indians, the africans, the chinese, even now the hispanics as well. This is not about blacks so much as it is about deeply rooted attitudes of racial superiority, the american master race

Even if I agreed with that, and I most certainly don't, it would still leave open the question. How would that be solved?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

This is not about blacks so much as it is about deeply rooted attitudes of racial superiority, the american master race

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I'd change one word -- "the white master race."

Now, why do whites too often consider themselves that?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You didn't answer my question,

Why would so many white people be joining the black people protesting police brutality?

Must have missed it.

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My take is it goes beyond doing the right thing for some. They feel like they're in the same boat. Or have shared experiences. Remember what I said about CLASS?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'm sure at least some of them think it's the right thing to do.

Now for my question. What, in your view, is the real problem to be solved?

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Too many poor people.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

here's my two cents worth, the problem to be solved is equality, it is a problem that existed for centuries and despite various proclamations has not been truly implemented, the old attitudes of superiority obviously remain, deeply rooted in the culture. Had the africans been free settlers, coming to the americas as others had things might have been different, but manifest destiny for the Europeans to rule remains. the Europeans have continually forced their superiority upon other races, the indians, the africans, the chinese, even now the hispanics as well. This is not about blacks so much as it is about deeply rooted attitudes of racial superiority, the american master race

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Our founding documents say everyone is equal, but in reality some are more equal than others. At the top of the food chain rich landowners have always dominated. Hundreds of years later guess who is still at the top of the food chain. I don't think rich land owners care about race as much as they do wealth, but we can't have poor blacks and whites united in their own interest now can we? They may decide changes that benefit them more than rich guys was possible.

Imagine that, poor people and minorities having power to change stuff in their favor.

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Too many poor people.

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You have outlined the problem, but not the solution(s). Reducing out of wedlock births would help A LOT. Stopping the terrible policy of forcing poor families to send their children to terrible schools would help a lot. Greatly reducing the criminal activities of young black men would go a long way. Getting the message across to men that fathering children outside of marriage is disgraceful would help a lot. Teaching our children that the world does not owe them a living, so they better figure out how they are going to earn money as adults would help a lot. Beginning once again to honor and support the two parent family would help a great deal. Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ helps enormously. Stopping the endless harping about the supposedly widespread practice of police murdering black people would be productive. And here's the good news. Most of that does not require the help of the government. "Rich land owners" could not stop it or even slow it down. It's what poor people could do all on their own, but it would need our support and encouragement because it would be a slow and difficult process. It's much easier to just want the feds to throw some money at it, but if the past fifty years is any indicator, that will not work.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You have outlined the problem, but not the solution(s). Reducing out of wedlock births would help A LOT. Stopping the terrible policy of forcing poor families to send their children to terrible schools would help a lot. Greatly reducing the criminal activities of young black men would go a long way. Getting the message across to men that fathering children outside of marriage is disgraceful would help a lot. Teaching our children that the world does not owe them a living, so they better figure out how they are going to earn money as adults would help a lot. Beginning once again to honor and support the two parent family would help a great deal. Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ helps enormously. Stopping the endless harping about the supposedly widespread practice of police murdering black people would be productive. And here's the good news. Most of that does not require the help of the government. "Rich land owners" could not stop it or even slow it down. It's what poor people could do all on their own, but it would need our support and encouragement because it would be a slow and difficult process. It's much easier to just want the feds to throw some money at it, but if the past fifty years is any indicator, that will not work.

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jl read the statistics, prevention of out of wedlock births is already the highest single reason for deaths in this world, surely you don't think more abortion is a good thing? so what do you propose? mass sterilisation, and who would you select? not your republican power base

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jl read the statistics, prevention of out of wedlock births is already the highest single reason for deaths in this world, surely you don't think more abortion is a good thing?

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No, I don't. A return to basic morality and a change in public beliefs is what I am advocating for. It is not political. At one time, a few decades ago and before abortion was widespread, and even before the BC pill, out of wedlock births were rare because it was generally believed that sex was reserved for marriage, or at the very least it was understood that becoming pregnant outside of marriage was a lousy idea. Sex had not yet become the casual affair it is now.

I have outlined my solution to poverty many times, maybe you missed it, but with all due respect good luck telling minorities to work hard and stop complaining and do as the white man tells you. Maybe we will use the power of the vote to get what we want! It's not like you're listening, or believing any way.

Relax and work on you're awareness because going backwards in time ain't happening.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

At one time, a few decades ago and before abortion was widespread, and even before the BC pill, out of wedlock births were rare because it was generally believed that sex was reserved for marriage, or at the very least it was understood that becoming pregnant outside of marriage was a lousy idea. Sex had not yet become the casual affair it is now.

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Again, your memory of the "good old days" astounds me! Whether I lived in a rural area or near a city, sex was NOT generally reserved for marriage. Stories were legion about e.g., "Sally" who snuck off to a back-street abortionist or "Charlene" whose Aunt Becky "helped" her get rid of "something" or "Margaret" who was sent to live for six or seven months (hmm...) with an out-of-state relative.

Maybe you, JL, were Mr. Respectful, but far too many guys my girlfriends and I dated, after a few dates, ended up taking us to secluded parking spots -- a bluff overlooking a moonlit lake, a dark and empty warehouse parking lot, the basement rec room after his parents and siblings went to bed ("Come downstairs with me to see our new ping-pong table and dartboard!").

Yes, sex, especially before marriage, has always been a casual affair and greatly sought after.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Stopping the terrible policy of forcing poor families to send their children to terrible schools would help a lot.

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Why are the schools terrible??? I say it's too often because the teacher training is awful. I attended four years at a well-respected teachers college where I learned way too much about math and literature and science and history. We students begged for practical courses on how to manage a classroom of thirty kids of various skills and abilities and behavior patterns. "Nope," they told us, "you have to learn calculus and the history of Albania. And you'll figure out how to teach once you're in charge of a classroom." Um, it doesn't work that way.

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I have outlined my solution to poverty many times, maybe you missed it, but with all due respect good luck telling minorities to work hard and stop complaining and do as the white man tells you.

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You have complained many times. You have not given any solutions. Work hard and stop complaining? Yeah. Wouldn't want to do anything like that. You know, practices that have worked for centuries.

WG, I'm not going with my memory. I am referring to data. Anecdotal stories are completely useless.

As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.

Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.

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You have complained many times. You have not given any solutions. Work hard and stop complaining? Yeah. Wouldn't want to do anything like that. You know, practices that have worked for centuries.

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Circulating more money to more people is viable, and telling someone to stop complaining against wrong doing and long standing discriminatory policies and practices is insulting. That's after centuries of abuses, cruelty, and atrocities so some rich landowner could peacock in high society. Sadly the cruelty and atrocities didn't stop when the slavery ended, even after another century of "complaining". That's okay JL, keep preach and not listen.

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As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.

Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.

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Are you guys still under a consent decree because you thought jail was the place for unruly kids? I can imagine kids and parents "complaining" to a higher authority with your methods and they did.

Don't blame anyone but yourselves for that and well you know I've read the whole sordid public account of YOUR actions.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

WG, I'm not going with my memory. I am referring to data. Anecdotal stories are completely useless.

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Accurate abortion statistics weren't kept back then. It was a case-by-case situation, usually hidden from society.

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As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.

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I have taught in an inner-city school. As a public library volunteer coordinator, I've coordinated with county officials who assigned community service jobs to both black and white (and Asian and Filipino and Latinx) teens and adults, and put them in my capable hands to do various jobs at the library where I worked. I know what black kids are up against.

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Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.

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"You do have a valid point in talking about teacher training but..." BUT what? You said pretty much what I did. We lacked hands-on, role-playing instruction as part of our teacher training. It wasn't REAL teacher training; it was "let's fill their heads with all sorts of non-essential facts, information they'll never need and use."

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I have. I know what black kids are up against.

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Elaborate. What subject and how many years? Where?

Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Elaborate.

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I added to my previous response. Please read it.

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Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??

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I don't understand your comment and demand for an explanation.