that's because they have been raised in this semi-nanny state /nanny state system you think is so great. Services that are competitive and not covered (like cosmetic surgery and Lasik eye surgery )have seen a steady reduction in pricing . More and more doctors in the US are dumping insured patients and Government assisted Medicare patients and are opting instead to become direct primary care physicians . Under direct primary care, patients pay a monthly fee sometimes less than $100 as a retainer for unlimited access to primary care services (which for most people is more than 80% of their medical expenses. Insurance is reserved for the services that are more catastrophic in nature.

and you think this differs from my situation, how? We pay a tax levy to cover at least part of the cost of that primary care and in some instances the whole of the cost is covered, elective surgery such as cosmetic surgery is at the cost of the consumer unless covered by an insurer. Where this differs from your system is that the system is government regulated and the patient is given a guide in the form of the benefit as to what the services should cost, a doctor who charges more does so knowing that the patient can take their business elsewhere. So you could say we have a "single payer" system but in fact we have a federal system. For one visit to a doctor I can pay as little as nothing and probably not more than $20 directly. The tax impact is 2% above $16,000 income if you are not privately insured so a low income person can have very little actual medical cost about 60% of doctors are in the system meaning they bill the government not the patient

the simple answer is more options and more competititon for the services. One size fits all doesn't work .

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The only difference I see is the timing, long term, versus short term. Study the science for yourself and let me know. Its still evolving. As far as employee/boss relationships, it can work if they both WANT it to. Both their fortunes are tied together.

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You science people crack me up. Global warming, which predicts nothing right, is allegedly “settled science”. But the basics of human reproduction is “evolving”? Pre-fertilization = no baby. Post fertilization = baby. That’s settled science.

Good to see you believe if an employee goes to work for Hobby Lobby they accept the terms.

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the simple answer is more options and more competititon for the services. One size fits all doesn't work .

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Because all men and post-menopausal women don't need EC, fertility treatments and maternity coverage?

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the simple answer is more options and more competititon for the services. One size fits all doesn't work .

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You don't get it, this is perfect competition, all the doctors are in business for themselves, they make the decision to be in the system or not, but the patient knows they are not going to argue with an insurer about what is necessary. What has been taken out of the system is the shyster insurers. The patient makes the decision which doctor to use and how much they will pay for service, but the poor get service without cost and they don't have to pleed for it. I cannot see how you can say one size fits all, because there are endless options but certainty. You see you have been brainwashed into thinking overpriced service is good service. You say you can have primary care for $100 a month. For $130 a month I have all the care I could possibly want or need, now please tell me again how your system is better, even if I earn $100,000 it won't cost more unless I'm privately insured. I hear you can pay $10,000 a year for cover how is that better?

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Because all men and post-menopausal women don't need EC, fertility treatments and maternity coverage?

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What part of minimum standard for insurance policies is it you don't understand? What part of you don't need it, and don't use it, YOU DON'T PAY FOR IT that you cannot grasp?

So Doctors and Hospitals are working for free now since nobody pays fior anything.

I suspect 99% of the doctors to walk away from their practices , very, very soon.

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So Doctors and Hospitals are working for free now since nobody pays fior anything.

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Who said no one pays for anything?

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I suspect 99% of the doctors to walk away from their practices , very, very soon.

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You guys said that 4 years ago.

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What part of you don't need it, and don't use it, YOU DON'T PAY FOR IT that you cannot grasp?

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Wow, Tal. It so doesn’t work that way. You pay for the coverage whether you use it or not.

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I cannot see how you can say one size fits all, because there are endless options but certainty. You see you have been brainwashed into thinking overpriced service is good service.

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you misread my comments if you think I favor one size fits all.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Wow, Tal. It so doesn't work that way. You pay for the coverage whether you use it or not.

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So are you saying there should be more flexibility in what an insurance covers, and offers? Interesting if that's your premise, but we have already seen those cut rate insurance policies, and many still have them under the grandfather clause. Are you not forgetting that there is a 30% immediate savings in premium costs because of the tax subsidies over those grandfathered policies?

I don't know if you have done an actual cost/benefit analysis or if you are basing your opinion on flawed data. I mean do you have evidence that it indeed is more costly for health insurance for a minimum comprehensive policy, than one just tailored for your own needs. You may have a case for single people, both young and old but families certainly not.

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Who said no one pays for anything?

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Tal did...

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You guys said that 4 years ago.

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And its coming true, I know quite a few that have shut down, or will be shutting down... many doctors have left their practices... MANY are settign up Concierge Clinics where you pay for the right to go there and pay for any procedures needed... They are outside the reach or control of Obamacare.

Even more are refusing to accept Obamacare patients just like many refuse to accept Medicaid or Medicare patients. They don't get a fair reimbursement from any of them.

And today its all been proven to be true.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Wow, Tal. It so doesn’t work that way. You pay for the coverage whether you use it or not.

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See this is the camel's nose under the tent play. Once they see they can get away with forcing religious employers to pay for employee abortion inducing drugs ,then it doesn't take much to take it to the next step.... forcing them to pay for employee abortions.

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Tal did

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He said this:

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What part of you don't need it, and don't use it, YOU DON'T PAY FOR IT that you cannot grasp?

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Which you extrapolated to this:

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So Doctors and Hospitals are working for free now since nobody pays fior anything.

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Is that it?

You are a smart guy Smoothy my friend but there is never a situation where nobody pays as the very nature of insurance is you pay a regular premium. And lets not misunderstand that concierge and clinics are limited to the very basic function of primary care, and beyond that if you need a specialist then that's a whole new ball game to pay for.

Indeed many doctors and patients go outside the regular NETWORKS of medical care and have for decades, no changes there and it's always been a personal choice for doctors and patients, and Obamacare didn't change that.

So what are you squawking about? The biggest effect of Obamacare was how insurance companies conduct business. Doctors and patients can still decide how best they can make money, or save money. You would have known that if you looked before you hollered. Or didn't ignore the most obvious benefit to rural and local hospital costs we all were struggling under. Some local politicians (governors/state legislatures) are still ignoring their own state costs while they, like you holler, instead of doing the math.

You righties may be educated, but are lousy at math, AND science.

Exactly my Point Tal... you are forcing people to pay for things they will never need or never use. Particularly things they don't want when it applies to Obamacare.

Despite your claims about who can't do math. Obama and you lefties argued all along Obamacare would save everyone AT LEAST $2,500 a year... fact is it costs most people at LEAST that much MORE than they were paying BEFORE Obamacare.

Whose math is worse?

So when the services are required and they are then forced into bankruptcy that's a good system? I think if that were the case I would avoid visiting the doctor at all costs (pun intended).

Why would you require someone to buy a Lincoln Blackwood when all they want or need is a Forge Ranger? Oh Right... President Poo Pile decrees everyone WILL drive a Lincoln Blackwood if they want one or not... can afford it or not.

Obamacare as well as Medicaid and Medicare forces doctors to render services at compensation levels below what the cost of service is.

The only ones still hollering are the politicians in Red States up for re-election. The debate is OVER and we have moved to implementation.